Maytag's GT gets a BMC

Yo Dave,

I think that there is a difference between "dielectric compound" and "thermal transfer compound"..

dielectric (insulating)
http://www.silchemmarketing.com/terminology.htm

Transferring (non-insulating)
http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci815872,00.html

Keep up the good work, man.
Your scoots have always turned out really nice.


The usual props,

:D

-S
 
Stevil_Knevil said:
Yo Dave,

I think that there is a difference between "dielectric compound" and "thermal transfer compound"

-S

Hey there Steve,
Not much difference between the 2 as far as insulation goes if the FET's mounting screws were tightened down enough. I really dont think there are any insulation pads underneath the FETs but I'll find out soon as I get a hold of the correct washers and mica pads. BTW, good to see you around again. Have you got your ebike all sorted out yet? Last we heard you were having vibration issues with a X5 motor.
 
Hi Dave

So glad that you have a new controller and have come back to play! ha ha, yes as Lowell says there are insulating washers under each finger (each fet sits on its own little block of aluminium) under that there is a fibre tab washer of the same size so essentially its totally insulated gate to gate.

Yes yours has the washers and tubes, I honestly don't know why they do it this way as they use a tab kit on the voltage regulator? its very odd it may not be the only reason the stock controllers fail at higher voltages but It cant be helping, the gates can get false triggers if they are shorting out not good news at all and some were a few k ohms and some were total shorts! not good at all.

I hope you have more luck this time around however I do worry that the stock controller may have an issue, what is strange is that some of the older controllers don't seem to be having a problem like my original one and Xysters one etc? something has changed but this is a definite problem they need to address and address quickly unless they want all their controllers shipped back, for the sake a few pennies I cant see why they don't do it properly in the first place?

The modified controller is running just fine, may step it up to 48V in the next few days to see how it fares, it runs cool and is fast with some great low down grunt, these Pumas outperform my bike on low down power and are a match at the top end as well, I am going to be running a Puma on my bike my main bike to see how it fares, my controller on my main bike is old but reliable and does run at 72V on the USPD ok so it will be interesting to see if the Puma is happy on it.

Good luck with your ride mate, If its going to go it will go quite quickly on you, you may get a warning if you fit phase fuses inline like I did, put 50A fuses in 2 of the legs going to the motor, if it starts blowing fuses then I suspect you will have the same problem, the fuses are not quick enough to catch catastrophic failures but they may indicate something is going wrong, I found this on the BMX, it would be ok for a while at 48 and 72V then it would start blowing fuses, it maybe a motor temp thing as well? however when my BMX controller blew it was a freezing cold December night and the motor was Ice cold so I doubt it was that and when the 26 Inch Puma controller let go it was a cold night and it let go within about 30 seconds of opening the throttle a little, so me thinks the problem is at least part due to those washers and partly due to the fets. I have never had a failure when I had fuses fitted inline, the fuses blew but no controller failures.

Time will tell how this all goes! you never get anywhere if you don't try and you will always have to accept failures along the way, were kind of pushing the limits of the technology which is fun but can also be frustrating!

Good luck

Knoxie
 
Just to be clear guys, Which controller is it that blows? And does it just have trouble with the Puma motor, or with high voltage on any motor?
(i was hoping to use one with my trusty old 20A72v controller)
 
The 36-72V controller has lately been unreliable on all sorts of motors from kols to bmc to puma to xlyte when run upward of 48V but 72V typically, I think i may have found out why biut time will tell!! the Puma so far is good at 37V 35A. :)

Knoxie
 
I was running a 36-72v/35A version, dont know if theres a problem history with the 20A models. Once I get the mounting h/w squared away I dont plan on holding back and easing into it. I will run the 54v emoli pack right away up/down a few hilly streets nearby then recharge fully and plan out a quick ride to Joytix's house and back about 14mi with some hills along the way. I just gotsta know, "A man must know his limitations" hahaha
 
Thanks for clearing that up Paul:)
 
hi maytag,

:) lol a man after my own heart - i really think that if knoxie has fixed the issue ( no pressure knoxie ;) )we will have some kick ass ebikes - if you blow your controller again at 54v (please god,no) i will jump off right behind you and test it at 72v :)lol we just gotta get over this small prob and i for one will be more than happy with my super torquey forest rocket :)

D
 
Yo

Well I did run the BMX for quite a long time before it went and blew the controller and the BMX still works ok, 72V of lipo on that is amazing its an electric motorbike ha ha scary scary mental, quite awesome to ride it, took a glass of red wine before riding it once at 72V made all the difference!! was quite unreal.

I want to make the controller bullet proof which I think I may have gone some way in doing, I now need to make sure the combination works, I still feel a little current limiting may have to take place at 72V as 35A at 72V may warm these motors up too much if used continuous, still 20A at 72v means a cheaper controller, High rpms so good top speed 1.2KW doesnt warm the case of the motor at all.

We shall see though, the BMX motor didnt get that hot at 72V though so maybe it will be fine, its still an unknown, but in both cases the controllers have failed and the motors have not and are still working fine, which leads me to believe its the fragility of the controllers that is causing the problem.

Its all a lot of fun, I still think the Puma is a great ride on just 37V 35A! its enough for most other than the speed demons out there!!

He he

I have some days off work to play with all this stuff, so should hopefully run some hard 48V tests with the new 150V controller and Puma motor, both my NIMH packs are going to be heavy in my ruck sack!! the things I do for you guys :lol:

I am pretty sure the 150V controller is going to hold up ok at 48V, I will take some motor case temps with my digi thermometer and I will also run fuses.

Take it sleasy

Knoxie
 
Hi D

It will do 24mph and climb 15% grade at 18mph, it outperforms my Kol/USPD on both acceleration, torque and top speed at only 37V, my USPD is 3mph quicker on 48V, the Puma is very torquey ideal for a KMX where you want good powerful starts as you can easily peddle the KMX when rolling with its reduced wind resistance, pair of shorts and a light t shirt i.e. no drag and the KMX is a very efficient peddler, the gears are great though so you can get going quickly enough without the motor.

The Puma will do 30mph at 48V with the same fierce torque, it jumps right up in speed at 48V, I will do a video of the new motor and 150V controller in the next couple of days, hopefully there will be no smoke this time!

At 72V in the KMX I think it would be possible to spin the wheel using a Puma maybe! ha ha doughnut time!!

Knoxie
 
i dunno Paul,
My last 3 rides on the road bike(no assist) i was averaging 30-31.5kph (-19.2mph) over a distance of 25klm-38klm (15mi-23.6mmi) . The top speed on the flat would have to be a fair bit more than 24/30mph to blow wind up my skirt;)

i'm hanging out to see how it performs at 72v :D but am extremely happy to see you testing it correctly - not just wacking it onto 72v and crossing your fingers. Its this factor that will finally help me to decide between an 5303/5304 and the puma :)

watching with anticipation. keep up the good work.

Maytag - keep up the testing you'll get there, looking forward to finally hearing what was the problem causing this mystery! its like an exciting drama unfolding over the internet :D

I just hope it is something simple to fix!
 
maytag said:
Have you got your ebike all sorted out yet? Last we heard you were having vibration issues with a X5 motor.

No, not yet. I took the opportunity to get lots of measurements of the side cover, inside and out, in preparation for making CNC'd aluminum replacements -with provisions for positive pressure ventilation ducts.

In the event that operation ~110V should require radical modification for trueness or heat dissipation... I'm loaded for bear!

I will be lacing the X5 into a 24" downhill rim, which means cutting and threading special length spokes 'cause there aren't any S.S. spokes available in that length. :? I've got the spoke threader, and have practiced getting the hang of wielding it on a few spare spokes that I had laying about. Now I'm just waiting for the new spokes to show-up in the mail.

Nice to see you around too, Maytag. Best of luck with the new controller!


- - - - - - - - - - - - -
Ride bikes. Drive Culture. -S
 
Steve,

Man your X5 plans sound intense, does NEDRA have a bicycle class? :wink: If you run into problems lacing up the X5 yourself, Jondoh hooked me up with a guy in San Jose for special projects. He laced up my Puma with 12ga SS spokes, nice guy and very reasonable pricing.

Did you know PocketbikeGP is still holding races? Just wondering if you still have your racer or if you ever plan on getting back into the electric vs gasser racing again. Man how I miss dragging knees :cry:
 
OK back on topic. Just a quick update before getting some ZZZZ's. Got to work on replacing the crappy h/w on the FETs around 10:30pm, finished that task plus remounted the controller and cleaned up the wiring on the bike around 1:00am. Seemed like a perfect time to go out for ride. Put about 3 hard miles up some very hilly streets in the neighborhood, started with 3 bars (Full=4 bars) on the Milwaukee battery gauges and ended with only 1 bar. I wasnt holding anything back, full throttle and no peddling the whole time. I still havent ordered a DrainBrain yet so I cant tell you speeds or current readings, I was just out to see if the controller would hold up and to cycle the emolis. I'm happy to report no failures also the Puma, controller and batteries werent even warm after the quick gorilla testing. Ahhh, now I can sleep with a big grin on my face :D
 
Hey maytag,

nice,nice. Glad to hear you didn't have any hassle with the upgrade - this will reinforce knoxie diagnosis if you are up and running hassle free now (got my fingers crossed mate).
Well done with doing it yourself, i wouldn't try for fear of making a real hash of it!!
Sleep well mate and keep on thrashing!!! lol


best of luck


D
 
Hi

yes that sounds like good news to me as well, Its still early days but all my failures with the Pumas apart from the BMX have happened very quickly indeed and when not even under stress, time will tell, the new Puma I wired last night looks nice and neat inside and will be running on 48V 35A so we shall also see how this new variant runs, it certainly seems to have a good initial surge of torque when spinning up on the bench!

Keep us posted Dave on how its going with speeds and info and maybe some video that would be great!!

Cheers

Knoxie
 
Yes its still early and I know the last controller that gave out on me wasnt being pushed very hard when it happened. If I have time this morning before going to work I will retrace the same route to my bro's house and see if I can get past where the unfortunate event happened. It happened on a 1.5mi straight that has a slight incline the whole way, the cruise control was on and I was lightly peddle assisting. My fingers are crossed too because Joystix isnt even home this time so I'll have to peddle my way back if anything goes wrong this time. :shock:
 
go maytag,

Lets hope for a sucessful trip :)
I'm hoping to figure out what the hell happened to my controller so i'll be following the guys testing tips for the next couple of days.
I'm not expecting to be running by the weekend however so as you did when you were out of action i'm following your thread closely to see how it's going with you - get us some 54v vids if you can - i was really impressed with 36 so i'm looking forward to leaving joystix in your dust ;)


D
 
Oh yes

I had 4 miles of peddling in a big hot jacket on the Puma with 20lbs of lipos cutting in to my back!! not fun much better on the bike for sure!! ha ha this time when testing I am doing laps near my house, there are hills everywhere here, it will blow if its going to blow within the first few miles I am sure of it.

The new Puma will be mounted in place of my trusty USPD wheel tonight alongside a spanking new tyre, I also have a modified torque arm to try, I have to solder a big 5 pin plug to the controller on the Trek as I use them on all my rigs in place of the mini 5 pin ones which proved a little too fragile.

Should be out for a late evening spin just the same as Maytag, if its going to blow it will be quick I am sure!! the controller has not had the mod done but is old and reliable like me!!

Knoxie
 
good luck knoxie

your testing all our bikes in reality!!!


D :D
 
BLUE SKIES YALL :p :p :p

"Drumrole Please" any guesses on how my 14mi ride went this morning?

ABSOLUTELY SENSATIONAL

Again no DrainBrain yet but I'd have to say my pace was moderate. When I came up to the same 1.5mi stretch that took out the 1st controller I hit the Cruise control at maybe a tad bit faster than last time (less headwind today). When I came up to the same area where it failed I had a weird feeling as if passing through the Bermuda Triangle just waiting for something to happen. NADA, picked the pace back up and arrived at Joystix's driveway in 20min. 6.5 miles in 20 minutes I think calculates to 19.5mph average, not bad considering the hilly terrain. Nothing was even close to being warm and I had 2-bars left on the Milwaukee gauges. Called Joystix to tell him the good news then zoomed back home. The 2 3p7s subpacks are so evenly matched its unbelievable. Starting pack voltages were: PackA= 28.64v and PackB=28.64v. At the end of the 14 mile ride the packs measured(1-Bar left, BMS not yet tripped): PackA=26.98v and PackB=26.96v

I think were planning on doing some range testing tomorrow along with Jondoh and his Cyclone setup which is now fitted with the same number of Milwaukee packs as the GT but in 6p form. I consider my pack to be 54v/9Ah, so that would make Jondoh's setup 27v/18Ah. Dont know if any video will be taken, range testing video is a little boring (just my opinion).

Knoxie, I have a good feeling about the controller h/w mod - nice work mate. BTW, as I suspected there werent any insulation pads underneath the FETs when I took it all apart. Just thermal compound, plastic tubes and fiber washers, maybe theyre counting on the black anodize to keep the FETs insulated from the case. Now theyve all been fitted with mica insulation pads and the appropriate shoulder washers. Still got my fingers crossed, I'll consider being out of the woods once I've logged over 100 miles on the controller.

Things are looking up for the Puma fans.
 
maytag said:
BTW, as I suspected there werent any insulation pads underneath the FETs when I took it all apart. Just thermal compound, plastic tubes and fiber washers, maybe theyre counting on the black anodize to keep the FETs insulated from the case. Now theyve all been fitted with mica insulation pads and the appropriate shoulder washers. Still got my fingers crossed, I'll consider being out of the woods once I've logged over 100 miles on the controller.

Things are looking up for the Puma fans.

Great report. Glad you got it running. When do you go to 72v?

The FET tabs are supposed to be directly on the aluminum fingers. Better heat transfer that way. The insulators are under the fingers. This spreads out the heat over a larger surface area for the insulator and should give a lower thermal resistance (good).

The screws need to be insulated from the FET tabs as well as from the fingers.
 
Hi Richard

I got around insulating the screw from the tab by fitting the heat transfer washers, according to the data from the manufacturer the pads conduct heat better than the thermal grease, they have the added advantage of insulating the fet totally from the fingers removing the need to isolate the screw from anything, the screw just essentially becomes part of the heatsink and the fet is totally isolated, the top of the screw being isolated by the plastic top hat washer.

My controller and fets have been running great to far, I believe that Maytag has also fitted the square insulating washers as well so he should be ok.

Sounds like his is going great which is good news, like he said its early days but its more than likely if it works after a couple of 100 miles it will keep on working.

The big problem with the thermal grease is it dries up after a while and doesnt work so well the fibre washers dont do this, the other option is to of course not fit the fibre washers and keep the tubes in place, the thing I dont like about the tubes is they tear through with the screws, 50% of the ones I tested were breaking down, this would be even worse after the controller was running and warm.

Well Dave let us all know how you get on testing the bike, sounds like you have been having a lot of fun and your average speed sounds superb! nice one :)

Knoxie
 
Back
Top