Motorcycle Class Cargo Bike: Power, Distance, Stealth, Grins

[Alan B]

I would not do the series operate / parallel charging dance. It is an accident waiting to happen.

I would do the series operate connections, and do a mix of bulk charge and balance charging. Do Bulk Charging most of the time.

Balance charging is done with a 6S balance charger. Plug it in 3 times, once per bank. OR get three balance chargers and three power supplies if you want to do the whole thing at once. But is that necessary? Bulk charging should be fine MOST of the time, just an occasional balance charging to trim things up.

The Methods boards implement a safety net for HVC and LVC. So when bulk charging the HVC will shut down the bulk charge if any cell group gets too far ahead of the rest.

 

[ryan]

I guess that's what I don't understand. Are you saying that I can leave the packs connected in series (18s2p) while I bulk charge?

If so, do the Lipo balance wires follow the same pattern, except with 3 HVC/LVC boards in the middle?

I wish we had a virtual whiteboard for this stuff. I'm much more a visual thinker.

 

[Alan B]

Yes. I do believe you have the pattern.

For bulk charging you have the same series/parallel connection you use for powering the motor. The HVC/LVC boards are wired up the same as well. No changes. The HVC signals are paralleled from each board and used to disable the bulk charger if a cell group goes over voltage.

For balance charging you bring out a connector across the 6S bank, and a cable from the HVC/LVC board with the 7 balance leads. You end up with three of those, one for each 6S2P bank. Also that is where you sample with the celllog.

Always parallel first. Start by testing the battery then matching the charge states. Then parallel the heavy wires and after that parallel the balance wires. Then treat each parallel group as one bank. Series the three banks with the heavy wires. The balance leads are not involved in the series connections.

 

[ryan]

Great, so if I can keep the packs connected except when I balance (maybe once a month or so), then would this work?



This pattern requires a whole lot less wiring. Do I have Method's HVC-LVC board installed correctly?

 

[Alan B]

Very Close.

The balance cables from each battery go directly to the HVC/LVC boards (they have 8 parallel connectors). So in this case 2 cables to each HVC/LVC board.

The HVC/LVC board output signals are daisy chained, with an open cable available at each end of the daisy chain. The HVC and LVC signals are paralleled by this daisy chain. You can use both signals from one end, or use one from one end and the other from the other end.

 

[Alan B]

You can keep the packs connected EVEN WHEN YOU BALANCE.

 

[Jethro56]

I keep all my balance cables connected all the time. I have 8 6S 5000mAh Turnigy for a 12S 20aH pack. The balance cables make so that eack cell just have 4 seperate compartments. I first made sure I had 8 good packs and each celll was within .02V of each other before connecting. I also did the discharge cable's serial connections as you show. I'm doing an Xtra-cycle conversion build on a Giant Sedona.

 

[ryan]

Thanks for the feedback. Is this more accurate?


I know I also need to think about the duplicate pack on the other side of the bike. But I'd like to get the bare bones understood first. But I'm keeping in mind that ultimately the cell balancing wires from the other side will have to terminate in the same HVC/LVC boards of pack 1. If this becomes too complicated I may just bite the bullet and order an extra 3 boards from Methods to overkill, but oversimplify it.

While I'm at it, anyone know the wire gauge of the Zippy LiPo packs? I'm trying to evaluate thickness because I anticipate these wires increasing the total LiPo width from 104mm (52mm x2) to 104mm+[wire-diameter].

 

[ryan]

While I'm at it, anyone know the wire gauge of the Zippy LiPo packs? I'm trying to evaluate thickness because I anticipate these wires increasing the total LiPo width from 104mm (52mm x2) to 104mm+[wire-diameter].

MadRhino had the answer in Method's LiPo thread.

Zippy Flightmax have 8 ga silicone wires with 5.5 mm gold bullet connectors

Google shared that the outside diameter for these wires is 6.8mm. So we're talking a final width of 111mm. I may have to see about channelling these wires underneath the packs in the running boards to bring the width down.

 

[Alan B]

Drawing is improved. You didn't show the output wiring of the HVC/LVC is daisy chained (cable between top and middle, cable between middle and bottom, cable in at top, cable out at bottom).

Bringing all the wires across between the separate packs is not good, would be better to duplicate the whole deal. Then an A/B/both switch to combine the main leads near the controller. Or a circuit board I've been working on.

Believe the zippy 8ah use 8 gauge wires and 5.5mm bullets. I have a threesome at home. Need to get another set for the Enduro in February...

 

[Jethro56]

Last year I posted this if it helps show what I did that worked rather well.

With the help of several E-S members here is my Work in Progress Ammo Box 12S4P 20Ah Pack.

This picture shows the parallel connections of the 6s 5000mAh Turnigys

The mains come in and go out thru the buss bars shown below.

This shows the pack with the mains and the balance cables hooked to the 1420i

Finally, the pack ready for closing. Not shown is that each side of 4 bricks is taped together. There is a 1 1/2" spacer in the center at the bottom of the box to keep the packs separated. I plan on cleaning up the balance connections by replacing the wood blocks with stripboard running down each side on top of the turnigys. I haven't sourced the stripboards yet as it seems USA suppliers have 2.54mm pitch and the HK-XH's need 2.5mm pitch.

Future plans involve adding GGoodrum's LVC Boards or maybe going to 14S4P by adding 4 2S 5000mAh bricks in the area that now holds my spare tube. This is a hobby and all things are a work in progress.

 

[ryan]

Better?


What do you mean about bringing wires across between separate packs? A/B/both? I'm up for including anything that simplifies things. Thanks for helping me understand.

Drawing is improved. You didn't show the output wiring of the HVC/LVC is daisy chained (cable between top and middle, cable between middle and bottom, cable in at top, cable out at bottom).

Bringing all the wires across between the separate packs is not good, would be better to duplicate the whole deal. Then an A/B/both switch to combine the main leads near the controller. Or a circuit board I've been working on.

Believe the zippy 8ah use 8 gauge wires and 5.5mm bullets. I have a threesome at home. Need to get another set for the Enduro in February...

 

[Alan B]

Improving. Drop the extra third unterminated cable out of the middle HVC/LVC. There are two cable connectors on the HVC/LVC on the non-battery side. They parallel the HVC and the LVC optos. They are both input/output and are just in parallel. On the battery side there are 8 parallel JST connectors, so you can parallel 7 packs and have one connector left over for balance connections to metering or charging.

The board I have is basically a power switch board. It is designed for controlling the main power from the battery to the controller. Two of them can be used for a dual battery setup. I have three of the bare boards in hand but have not put parts on them or tested them. They also have the HVC and LVC connections to the Methods board and handle the throttle and bulk charger HVC cutout. Providing they work as expected they will make a nice installation here. They also handle soft turn-on so no precharge resistor needed. They have four FETs in parallel so good for up to 24 FET controllers.

 

[ryan]

That sure looks like a rats nest of wires. Jethro, in your opinion, how in the world am I going to fit the wires in my build?

(the bottom config with 6 packs is what I'm looking to do)

 

[Jethro56]

Yes, it does take a little care when closing the ammobox lid. The upside is that when one closes the lid there isn't any room for the batteries to move around. I bought a couple http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2102846 to solder jx-ht connectors for each pack and mount on the sides. I didn't do it because my packs stay in such good balance that I rarely open the box to balance charge. In the beginning I checked them every charge. Now I'll go 10-20 cycles before checking. Even setting 2 months they were all within .04V. I do limit my max to 4.10 and don't normally discharge below 3.6 so I'm pretty easy on them. Your build will be pushing the envelope harder. I'm happy riding in the low 20/mph.

 

[ryan]

Here's my running board battery pack mockup. What do you think? The sidewall isn't "seated" and is simply cut near to size and pinched in there (note the bulges and wrinkles). But it was helpful to see how it might look when completed. If you saw these thick running boards, what would you think they were? Am I still stealth?

View attachment 3

 

[ryan]

Alright, this is happening... I just purchased ZIPPY Flightmax 8000mAh 6S1P 30C from the HK USA Warehouse. $1100 all in. Delivery is estimated in 2-3 days. So by the end of the week I should be packing LiPo into the running boards.

Now to get the rest of the items on my list...

* Balance Charger (x2) -- still a bit overwhelmed on which one
* Bulk Charger (x2?) -- still a bit confused on which way to go
* LVC/HVC Methods boards (x6)
* Alan's power switch board

 

[ryan]

Just reached out to Methods for his boards.

Here's the latest wiring plan.



I'm planning on running 6mm gold bullets between the packs, and 8mm at the leads. I already have beefy 8 and 10 gauge silicon wire as well.

 

[Brentis]

Congrats.
Great job so far.

Here's my running board battery pack mockup. What do you think? The sidewall isn't "seated" and is simply cut near to size and pinched in there (note the bulges and wrinkles). But it was helpful to see how it might look when completed. If you saw these thick running boards, what would you think they were? Am I still stealth?

View attachment 3
View attachment 2
View attachment 1

I think that looks stealth.
Helps hide a giant rear hub.:wink:
Floorboards look good. Not to tall.
Sidewalls help the look. Black is always good.
I think you could go even taller. Maybe even vertically stack the packs.

Enjoy

I'll be staying tuned till completion.

 

[ohzee]

great work on that I think it looks pretty rad myself

 

[Jethro56]

If your packs are as good as mine you won't balance charge all that often. I'm running 8 HK 6s packs for 12s@20aH. Being that you're running 18s@30aH I'd try to find a real Meanwell to do the bulk charging and a less expensive charger to balance charge. I'm running a Hyperion 1420i with a 500 watt Meanwell but I don't have to reconfigure like you will. I tend to charge back up to 80% as soon as I return and top off right before I go out for the next ride. I know if I had to reconfigure each time I'd screw up. If I ever go > 14s I think I'd want a interlock system. So far I'm satisfied with the 28 mph my build give me.

 

[mr.electric]

Definitely looks good. I love the simple effective battery enclosure. I have been planning a wood or metal or plastic enclosure for so long and have never done it. I always default back to building into some sort of bike bag.

 

[john7700]

Glad to see that the enclosure is coming together. Looking good!

 

[Dee Jay]

wow what a beauty!

That would be a great pedal forward conversion with rear handle bar. I love my Giant Revive but it's only 20". I would trade it for that in a heartbeat to get better range with 26" wheels and still be laid back semi-recumbent stylee. actually, that will be is the last phase of my folding Precious Cargo Bike project, take the extra seat and carrier off and go solo and semi recumbent when the kids start riding their own adult size bikes.

The running board battery pack idea is perfect. Low center of gravity secured on a solid platform.

Pls take pics of it in day light

 

[ryan]

Thanks for all the help!