new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

looking at 66 mph = 105 kph

the air drag [force] increases with the square of velocity

the power needed goes up as velocity cubed since you are doing the drag work at the velocity the bike is moving.

My bike uses some 2350 watts to go 41.9 mph = 65kph.

Solving [at 66 mph] = 2350 x (105 x 105 x 105 ) / (65 x 65 x65 ) = 9905 watts. and 72 v at 137 amps if no losses like the heat of a very hot motor.



gman,


the c-3000 is a 10,000 watt motor instead of a mere 3000 watts.

 

[DingusMcGee]

I see we are talking different motors

 

[gman1971]

I see we are talking different motors

He is running 10 kW, we also don't know what other stuff he had on his bike as far as aero goes... on a recumbent it takes a lot less power to get up to speed.

G.

 

[Phife]

Im curious about the mode selection on the Cyclones 3000w controller, I would like to know what the different modes do. From what I understand there are 3 modes, how do the other two we are not using unless we have the selector switch affect the drives performance? Anyone know how it actually works?

Also, how does the selector switch between modes? just a shorting of the wires or does there have to be a resistor involved?

 

[gman1971]

Im curious about the mode selection on the Cyclones 3000w controller, I would like to know what the different modes do. From what I understand there are 3 modes, how do the other two we are not using unless we have the selector switch affect the drives performance? Anyone know how it actually works?

Also, how does the selector switch between modes? just a shorting of the wires or does there have to be a resistor involved?

Controls the max RPM at which the motor spins. I also think it also changes the acceleration profile too. Shorting is fine, I have them shorted now.

G.

 

[ebike11]

Are you guys getting anywhere near the speeds that cyclone lists on each motor? I see some he lists at 100kph

 

[gman1971]

Are you guys getting anywhere near the speeds that cyclone lists on each motor? I see some he lists at 100kph

I am getting 50mph on 48V doing down a 3-4% downhill... so I don't think its unrealistic to get to 60mph with the right conditions. Some guy using a BBSHD managed to get 40mph out of 1500 watts, so if you have decent aero I see no reason to get to 60 with 3,000 watts.

G.

 

[gman1971]

Another update on the Cyclone 3000W tadpole trike.

I received all my batteries today. x6 Multistar 6S 16,000 mAh packs. They should fit nicely in a box behind the seat of the trike, thus putting some weight on the rear wheel. I noticed the 11-36T cassette hasn't had any updates in the last week since ordering so I decided to order a Sunrace 11-42T rear cassette from a local bike shop so it will arrive on time for Friday and I'll keep the 11-36T as a replacement for my current eBike. The 11-42T cassette that should give the trike a 1.75 gear ratio at the back when using the 24T chainring and the 42T sprocket. It should be able to tow the space shuttle if needed.

I just saw the tracking # information and it states the trike frame should arrive here by tomorrow before 5:00. Lets see what happens...

I am thinking I am going to get the Cycle Analyst V2, I am not feeling the V3 with all the extra cable mess that comes out of it... so I'll stay V2, simpler to operate.

UPDATE: I received the 11-36T cassette today, along with another 10 speed chain and the DB25 cable that I will be using to charge the packs without having to resort to the cable mess I currently have on my ebike.

G.

 

[ebike11]

What speeds realistically would 72v get on the 3000watt motor on a 26 inch mtb?
Anyone try 72v yet?

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman and all,

here is an Hong Kong ebay store selling BMS etc for groups of a few cells.

http://stores.ebay.com/TCH-Power-Devices?_trksid=p2047675.l2563


Where such low cell count BMS are useful is for adding cells/volts to the 52v Luna Pack but having some likelihood of barely exceeding the 80v rating of the caps in the C3000 OEM controller.

A 4S?P pack in series with Luna Pack will be at a peak of 4.2 X 18 = 75.60v, a 5S?P pack similarly would be at 4.5 x 19 = 79.80v and a 6S?P would be at 84.00v when each of these pack set are fully charged. Can these caps take 84 v? My OEM controller did not work right when I added a nominal 24v pack to the 52v pack where the total fully charged voltage was about 87v at connection time.

A 5S pack addition looks like the safest [not exceeding OEM caps on charger] pack addition coming in at 79.8 v when fully charged.

 

[DingusMcGee]

I am getting 50mph on 48V doing down a 3-4% downhill... so I don't think its unrealistic to get to 60mph with the right conditions.

If you are looking to achieve higher top speeds pick a very wind day with the wind blowing toward the downhill direction. Using 52v in such a situation as flat & no wind my max for the c3000 is 41.9mph.

Whereas whey trying to achieve higher speeds on a flat surface with no wind or slope, the air drag load will easily gobble up most of any significant voltage increase. Power requirements for air drag go up as the cube of velocity so assuming no other loses if we go with 8 times the power we would see a two fold increase in speed. So going from 48 v to 72v [OEM controller mode 3 has a 40+ amp max] our expected [lower bound] velocity increase is about the cube root of 1.5 = 1.14. So at 41.9 mph we could see about 48 mph going to 72v. It looks like the Grin Motor Simulator uses a curve for the Load that is steeper than quadratic but less steep than cubic. So the cubic approach is likely a lower bound and you may see a little more speed gain than predicted by just modeling for air drag.

You can get more speed by lowering your bike/rider drag coefficient. They easy changes are to wear an aero helmet, were a slick racing suit and lay waist on top the seat using the lowest seat position with your leggs outstretched over the rear wheel. The hard changes: get a fairing.

Achieving 60 mph is about getting the right conditions. High winds cost nothing except when you turn about.

 

[gman1971]

The 60 mph attempt will be done on a recumbent trike, not an upright so that will slash the drag coefficient by a significant amount. I will also be running a shunted cyclone controller, probably up to 60 amps, so that will give me 4.5 kW peaks @ 72V on packs that are new and have higher capacity than the current ones I have now. I have no wishes to die attempting a 60mph record on my 26" hardtail...

I understand that Power = Force * velocity and since F grows with the square of airspeed (velocity) you need 8 times the power, and the only way to go faster is by reducing Frontal Area or the Cd (or both), recumbents do that on both aspects so it should be worth a try. You can also attempt the record at a very high mountain. where air density is lower too..

So the cube root of doubling the power is ~1.26, that will put my current eBike at 51 mph, based on 2.2kW at 41 mph. Since the trike will be far more aerodynamic than a upright brick, I mean, bike... then there is a slim chance I might be able to break into the 60 mph realm...

G.

 

[gman1971]

Dingus,
I've already made a decision on this matter: No BMS for me, I will be using a DB25 connector to balance the x3 6Sx2p packs like another member did here. The least amount of electronics in the battery setup the better. With the range I'll have on this trike I won't have to recharge packs twice on a daily basis like I do now, so as long as the packs are kept under 4.15 volts and over 3.8 per cell I don't think I'll have any problems. BMS are another thing that can fail, plus these are a constant current draw and if they fail you're done. The DB25 approach works for me and I do understand the LiPo risk, I've been using them since 2004 and I've set a few of those on fire with a sledgehammer... pretty fun.

G.

gman and all,

here is an Hong Kong ebay store selling BMS etc for groups of a few cells.

http://stores.ebay.com/TCH-Power-Devices?_trksid=p2047675.l2563


Where such low cell count BMS are useful is for adding cells/volts to the 52v Luna Pack but having some likelihood of barely exceeding the 80v rating of the caps in the C3000 OEM controller.

A 4S?P pack in series with Luna Pack will be at a peak of 4.2 X 18 = 75.60v, a 5S?P pack similarly would be at 4.5 x 19 = 79.80v and a 6S?P would be at 84.00v when each of these pack set are fully charged. Can these caps take 84 v? My OEM controller did not work right when I added a nominal 24v pack to the 52v pack where the total fully charged voltage was about 87v at connection time.

A 5S pack addition looks like the safest [not exceeding OEM caps on charger] pack addition coming in at 79.8 v when fully charged.

 

[sather]

Hey Gman:
In looking at the photos of your build: What is the purpose of the hose clamp that is wrapped around the aluminum motor bracket and the bikes down tube? Also, how did you attach the chain tension spring to the motor mount?

 

[gman1971]

Hey Gman:
In looking at the photos of your build: What is the purpose of the hose clamp that is wrapped around the aluminum motor bracket and the bikes down tube? Also, how did you attach the chain tension spring to the motor mount?

The hose clamp is so the motor doesn't fall down when going over hard bumps. This is instead of doing it the way they suggested on the kit with a zip tie and the thing wrapped around the motor. I've tightened it to stun so the motor isn't going anywhere... and if it is, I might have bigger problems to worry about.

I losened one of the gearbox-motor bolts and I placed one end of the spring there. Then I stretched the spring slightly so it is at tension when you attach the other end to the idler wheel axle.

G.

 

[sather]

Gman, thank you for all your help.

The 73mm install was not difficult, especially considering there are no instructions or diagrams. Took about 3-4 hours.

The only problem I had was two loose wires in the controller connectors. Luna does not test the controllers.
Procedure: Before you install anything, connect motor, throttle, controller and battery. Test to see if the motor works. Then disconnect the battery and inspect for loose wires by gently pulling on the wires coming out of ALL the connectors. If any come loose, push the loose wires back into the connector. If they won't stay in when you tug on them, glue them in with hot glue or silicone. Re-connect battery and test to see if the motor still works.

I plan to purchase an ISIS bottom bracket and cranks, but the cyclone seems to work fine with the bottom bracket that is supplied with the kit. (It doesn't throw chains.)

 

[DingusMcGee]

sather,

re: loose wire? do yu mean unanchored plug contact fittings?

If so, there is a small clip on these plug fittings that needs to project outward maybe 30 degrees. If it is less than 30 degrees pry its tip outward to get 30 degrees.

These silver or gold fittings [crimped hardware] can lock in the plug only when inserted such that the clip catches the lip for the clip inside the plug -- only one orientation works to seat the clip. Most of the time you will have push the hardware into the plug with a small blunt tool as pushing on the wire with your fingers results in too much wire flex to move the hardware down its shoot.

 

[gman1971]

Gman, thank you for all your help.

The 73mm install was not difficult, especially considering there are no instructions or diagrams. Took about 3-4 hours.

The only problem I had was two loose wires in the controller connectors. Luna does not test the controllers.
Procedure: Before you install anything, connect motor, throttle, controller and battery. Test to see if the motor works. Then disconnect the battery and inspect for loose wires by gently pulling on the wires coming out of ALL the connectors. If any come loose, push the loose wires back into the connector. If they won't stay in when you tug on them, glue them in with hot glue or silicone. Re-connect battery and test to see if the motor still works.

I plan to purchase an ISIS bottom bracket and cranks, but the cyclone seems to work fine with the bottom bracket that is supplied with the kit. (It doesn't throw chains.)

Nice!

I am curious about lose wires? I didn't have any issues with the wiring on mine (even though I later went connectorless after riding in WI snow roads)

The ISIS BB I have was a lot more straight when pedaling backwards so I kept the ISIS over the one that came with the kit; but the square taper should work if its straight... an ISIS BB will have a bit less play overall.

How do you like it?

G.

 

[gman1971]

According to most bike power calculators online; using 4.5 kW to power the trike it should be capable of reaching 60, and even 70 mph depending on some aero stuff...

Today is T-day... the trike frame is out for delivery!! I can't wait!! Just paid a visit to the LBS to get teflo

G.

 

[evolutiongts]

According to most bike power calculators online; using 4.5 kW to power the trike it should be capable of reaching 60, and even 70 mph depending on some aero stuff...

Today is T-day... the trike frame is out for delivery!! I can't wait!! Just paid a visit to the LBS to get teflo

G.

I beat you to it!

Love it.

 

[DingusMcGee]

evolutiongnts,

is there a Sabvoton controller on your c-3000 trike?

gman,

this would make the drag coefficient slightly less than 1/2 of what it is for an ebike.


I have got my 26" hardtail hub drive bike up to 56.6 mph flat & windless conditions using a max of 4770 watts. There seems to be quite a bit friction in mid drive drive train that does not exist in the hub drive. So hub motors likely have are more efficiency at top end than the mid drive motor/gear train setup has?

 

[evolutiongts]

This is the BBS02 motor but I will eventually put a cyclone 3000w motor on it, possibly sabvoton controller.

 

[gman1971]

evolutiongt... meh... its just a BBS02, might as well pedal it. heh.

I sense competition... mwahaha...

What KMX trike is that? Mine is (will be once UPS monkeys deliver) a frame kit with all custom gear...

I have the batts but no motor yet; I left the motor for last on purpose, as I don't plan on sticking a motor on this thing until I get a good grip on how these ride at high speed downhills: getting killed is not on my to-do list...

G.

 

[evolutiongts]

evolutiongt... meh... its just a BBS02, might as well pedal it. heh.

I sense competition... mwahaha...

What KMX trike is that? Mine is (will be once UPS monkeys deliver) a frame kit with all custom gear...

I have the batts but no motor yet; I left the motor for last on purpose, as I don't plan on sticking a motor on this thing until I get a good grip on how these ride at high speed downhills: getting killed is not on my to-do list...

G.

Typhoon also more woe with the Cyclone 3000w motor mounts

 

[gman1971]

Thats because you didn't do the washer mod. If you do the washer mod and the other side plate Dingus suggested you probably don't need to use solid motor mounts.

G.