new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

It seems like some of us have the motor frame modification figured out adequately. But noise? Earlier I posted a study of the C-3000 noise using a sound meter. From the numerical measurements and the particular chains I used I concluded the 2 chain set ups made far more noise than the gear box. And I know this is only one study.

A good portion of my 3 C-3000 ebikes uses are as a tools to enhance getting to disjunctive locations for rock climbing. The locations being in WY have a lot of rocks and sometimes little soil. Sometimes there are no trails, sometimes animal/game trails, sometimes very difficult ATV trails and of course 2-tracks with difficult zones. The riding to and from is just about always carrying a backpack containing gear except when I leave the pack at the rock site knowing I will be coming back the next day to retrieve it. These rides are either climbing hillsides or descending into canyons on narrow rocky game trails. I do know I ride the trails and difficult zones best with no pack on my back. Why would I want to carry the motor's battery pack on my back?

The high torque at low rpm that Sather reports on of the C-3000 and the soft throttle start, CA created, are what makes this kind of riding happen with far less getting off, pushing and wheeling the bike. Most of my modifications are towards getting these units into precise control by subtle modifications of the throttle, brakes, seats, tires, chains, chainrings, weight distribution and improving my riding skills. This motor works great. Why spend more. For Noise -- get a chainguard/cover? I do see a cover of sorts on the BBSHD. I guess such an item, being home made, would not look cool if placed on one of these reputed Stealth C-3000"?

As for the C-3000's noise, I notice it when I am riding in town on pavement and there are no ICE vehicles nearby. Your complaints give me a clue as to where you are spending you time. And now that a lot of trails are snowed in, I'll put on ear plugs?, like I do when I ride my LR Sm BL, to keep me from bitching about the motor noise.

 

[Skaiwerd]

As we are on the subject of mounts and brackets I'd thought I'd contribute. In a past life of stubborn stupidity, waisting time and money on a friction drive set up, I 3d printed some motor mounts. I couldn't believe that was just sept of last year. Things went a lot faster after finding out about the cyclone. The fun I had was unbelievable over the summer. I've added some pictures of the old stuff for a good laugh and to show what i'm referring to. I was able to lift the bike by that motor mount of the friction drive to test it's strength. It was fairly rock solid. I never added the through bolts that go from the plastic to the aluminum brackets either as I was testing and it did not need them anyway. Ok my thought is try to eliminate the bottom bracket mount all together at some point. If the front of the cyclone motor is removable a mount like I'm showing could work. It may go to two mounting points as strength and twisting will be an issue. I'd probably print a small test slice first to check the fit as the large main part is over 30 hours to print. This is the thing to work on when it's to cold to ride.

 

[robocam]

It would seem that if the seller offered an upgraded mount, they would make a lot of money selling it. Mike at Lightningrods told me that he tried to strike a deal with Eric at Luna, but for some reason it didn't go anywhere. If Luna sold that bracket, virtually none of us would be having any issues with the mount. I tried to buy one from Mike, and that first email was all I received. All further attempts at contact were left unanswered. I wonder what happened.

BTW, the 2nd to last link seems to be a duplicate of the link above it. This link might be better for the second to last link.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&p=1183684&hilit=robocam+sideplate#p1183884

Thanks for making this compilation.

I don't know why SickBikeParts doesn't make a modified mount. Maybe they can't make enough money on it?

Bent sleeve failure Page 25
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=600

Washer mod failure Page 28
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=675

Robocam mount Page 29
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=700

DingusMcGee mount Page 37
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=900

Detailed Robocam page 37
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=900

Dogboy1200 mount page 51
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1250

 

[robocam]

Well, everyone uses their bike in different ways, and noise toleration is different among people. It's the same with anything else (cars, stereo equipment, computers, etc.).

Why spend more? If you feel that your setup is adequate, you don't need to spend more. That's the beauty of the Cyclone kit. It's almost as cheap as it can be, allowing others to customize it to their liking.

Are you using a Cycle Analyst to implement a soft start?

A chainguard cover won't quiet the gears. Gear noise is what I want less of.

I'm spending my time riding trails, and I would prefer not drawing attention to myself.

Personally, I don't mind the sound the Cyclone makes.

...But noise?...

...the soft throttle start, CA created...

...This motor works great. Why spend more...

...For Noise -- get a chainguard/cover...

...Your complaints give me a clue as to where you are spending you time...

...keep me from [complaining] about the motor noise...

 

[robocam]

Why do you suggest a wattage or voltage limit? It would seem that increasing the speed of the system would increase the stresses on the parts significantly less than increasing the torque. I mean, why not run 100V at a lower current? Isn't it similar to import vs domestic cars? You have one that tends to have slower turning, larger displacement engines vs. faster spinning, smaller displacement engines.

I wonder if there's a way to use the BBSHD the way the Cyclone is used (i.e. to spin the outer chainring of the crankset). I really like quiet, but I'm afraid the BBSHD might not fit my bottom bracket shell, but most importantly, I want to use a 30T chainring without messing up the chainline. I wonder if I can just make some brackets and mount it the same way the Cyclone is mounted.

It does get a little louder, but it starts out so quiet that even after doubling the dB it is still pretty quiet. How many gearboxes around here use a helical gear on the high-RPM half of the drive? And then also use a helical gear on the secondary?

That being said, I would not recommend taking the BBSHD over 52V X 40A = 2080W, but that's just me. The Cyclone motor and gearbox can take much more than 2080W. however, until they switch to helical gears, that will likely remain the main source of the drive-system noise.

The biggest problem with the Cyclone-3000 (IMHO) is the mounting brackets.

 

[DingusMcGee]

We have heard ask, "Why doesn't someone make a motor mount for this?" and we have been told the,... noise would be less with steel cut helical gears.

So why doesn't someone make a set of drop-in steel cut helical gears for the planetary set?

 

[sather]

I'm no machinist, but wouldn't you have to make a new helical motor shaft, new helical outer gear housing and 3 new helical gears? If that is an ignorant question, I apologize.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Sather,

It looks like it might take some motor & shell remaking to get all those gears helical.

Do you suppose some one could make some sound proofing for the presently existing gears?

Are you using a Cycle Analyst to implement a soft start?

Yes. I have no programmable controllers in use on the mid drives.

Robo,

after some more riding the Big Hit I can tell you how it compares to the Stumpy, but for sure, no problem with using 130 mm travel shocks on the front and the resulting steeper head angle. Again, thanks for finding this frame as I like how the seat's load path on flat ground is dead on or in front of the BB.

 

[sather]

I tried wrapping 5/8 thick dense foam rubber around the entire planetary gear housing. It did not reduce the noise.

 

[Alex07]

Unread postby DingusMcGee » Sun Dec 11, 2016 4:06 am

We have heard ask, "Why doesn't someone make a motor mount for this?" and we have been told the,... noise would be less with steel cut helical gears.

So why doesn't someone make a set of drop-in steel cut helical gears for the planetary set?

Why most likely no one makes a helical steel gear is that it would be noisier then the Strait cut plastic gear ! helical gears don't magicaly stop all the noise, look at the steel helical gear whine on a car differential. Strait cut plastic gears are quieter than helical steel gears. Also who said the C3000w noise is coming from the gearbox ? others have posted chain noise and possibly motor whine is where any noise i coming from.

http://www.gearsolutions.com/article/detail/5621/engineering-principles-for-plastic-gears
Noise Generation:
The excellent noise dampening properties of plastics result in a quieter-running gear. The graph below shows noise generation in dB of steel against steel "a" and of steel against plastic "b" at increasing speeds. The difference is as much as 9 dB. Steel against steel generates up to three times as much noise than does steel against plastic. Noise equals wear: When we replaced the noisy steel pinion gears in the drying section of a paper mill with PA6G gears, the noise disappeared, and one could stand a nickel upright on the housing of the running gear.

 

[Alex07]

by robocam » Sun Dec 11, 2016 1:53 am

It would seem that if the seller offered an upgraded mount, they would make a lot of money selling it. Mike at Lightningrods told me that he tried to strike a deal with Eric at Luna, but for some reason it didn't go anywhere. If Luna sold that bracket, virtually none of us would be having any issues with the mount. I tried to buy one from Mike, and that first email was all I received. All further attempts at contact were left unanswered. I wonder what happened.

Doesn't AFT sell an upgraded C3000w mount ? http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

 

[DingusMcGee]

Alex07,

would helical nylon gears be less noisy?

 

[robocam]

There are no dumb questions. The pinion gear can easily be removed from the motor shaft once the snap ring is removed. It seems simple to retrofit the gearbox with helical gears. We just need someone with the ability to make the parts.

I'm no machinist, but wouldn't you have to make a new helical motor shaft, new helical outer gear housing and 3 new helical gears? If that is an ignorant question, I apologize.

 

[robocam]

The shell is just a ~1" round metal tube. It seems like it should be easy to make one with helical teeth.

I'm glad you're having fun with the Big Hit frame.

...It looks like it might take some motor & shell remaking to get all those gears helical.

Do you suppose some one could make some sound proofing for the presently existing gears?

Are you using a Cycle Analyst to implement a soft start?

Yes. I have no programmable controllers in use on the mid drives.

Robo,

after some more riding the Big Hit I can tell you how it compares to the Stumpy, but for sure, no problem with using 130 mm travel shocks on the front and the resulting steeper head angle. Again, thanks for finding this frame as I like how the seat's load path on flat ground is dead on or in front of the BB.

 

[Alex07]

Re: new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?
Postby DingusMcGee » Sun Dec 11, 2016 5:46 am

Alex07,

would helical nylon gears be less noisy?

It depends where the noise is coming from now, if its from the motor whine and chain noise then no it won't make any difference.

Apart from making the helical gears fit the other issue is the bearing and housing have never been designed to have the side loading the helical gears will have. Helical gears are less efficient and cause more drag due to this side loading. So i don't think its worth the effort especially considering no one has called it LOUD its probably the 2nd quietest kit behind the BBSHD at 48v... it could be best first step to solve the motor whine with a sine controller and possibly a chain guard first as they cause no efficiency loss and they will reduce noise as well.

 

[robocam]

Have you heard the metal-geared Cyclone Mini?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCIwmI-AsUM

Car transmissions don't whine when you're going forward, but they do when you use the straight cut reverse gears.

Scroll down a little past half page to see the inside of a Bafang.

https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-hotrodding-nuts/

I hope Cyclone comes out with a model with helical gears some day.

...helical gears don't magicaly stop all the noise, look at the steel helical gear whine on a car differential...

 

[robocam]

It's probably because the noise is being transmitted through and being amplified by the bike frame. This is why we should eliminate the source of the noise instead of trying to dampen it.

I tried wrapping 5/8 thick dense foam rubber around the entire planetary gear housing. It did not reduce the noise.

 

[robocam]

Is it $50?

Doesn't AFT sell an upgraded C3000w mount ? http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

 

[robocam]

Bafang already solved that problem with helical gears in both reductions. Since their mid drive is so quiet, by deduction, we can assume it comes from the gears.

It depends where the noise is coming from...

 

[Alex07]

Have you heard the metal-geared Cyclone Mini?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCIwmI-AsUM

Car transmissions don't whine when you're going forward, but they do when you use the straight cut reverse gears.

Scroll down a little past half page to see the inside of a Bafang.

https://www.electricbike.com/bafang-hotrodding-nuts/

I hope Cyclone comes out with a model with helical gears some day.

Alex07 wrote:
...helical gears don't magicaly stop all the noise, look at the steel helical gear whine on a car differential...

This thread is bout the cyclone 3000w what does that have to do with the cyclone mini ? they are totally different designs. one is high rpm metal gears the one is low RPM and plastic gears , of course the mini is a lot louder don't confuse the two .

 

[Alex07]

Postby robocam » Sun Dec 11, 2016 6:55 am

Is it $50?

Alex07 wrote:
Doesn't AFT sell an upgraded C3000w mount ? http://www.aft-ebike.com/c3000w.html

we could only dream so ! but i am assuming a lot more since its a lot better and Cyclone sells their stock crap one for $80 USD plus exorbitant shipping and paypal fees

http://www.cyclone-tw.com/order-motors.htm

BB Style motor bracket set 120mm $80

 

[DingusMcGee]

It looks like there are at least 2 products in addition to the AFT motor mount pertinent to what AFT markets and the discussion going on here:

AFT Product 1

Noise reduction chain guard
This all laser cut chain guard, bolts on easily to the existing motor bolts and provides a chain guard for:
Safety
Contains chain oil mud and grit
Reduces the chain/freewheel noise.
Clean look that covers most of the exposed nuts and bolts, whilst still allowing access to the chain guides.

The inside is lined with a special noise reduction material that is oil resistant and which helps contain the noise and vibration. It's a quick and easy 2 bolt installation and provides a simple clean finish. Add $99

AFT Product 2
Noise reduction gearbox shroud
This all laser cut gearbox noise reduction shroud bolts on easily to the existing gearbox and provides a significant reduction to gearbox noise. In combination with the oil bath in the gearbox and the ceramic bearings, the chain noise reduction guard will help achieve a large drop in gearbox noise. Add $ 139
Picture
Picture



Alex07 wrote

it could be best first step to solve the motor whine with a sine controller and possibly a chain guard first as they cause no efficiency loss and they will reduce noise as well.

Not all controllers purporting to be sine controllers will necessarily work good with just any purported sine motor. Both controllers and motors need to be hand matched and tuned [either trap motors and trap controllers or sin controllers and sine motors] to get that pie in the sky efficiency and quietness. There is some discussion on this tuning via a motor finite element package at PM Motor theory - formulae etc. So depending on your motor's properties you may not get quite all you are hoping for. FOC is different than wave matching and the Phase runner by Grin is sino FOC and there could be Phase runner made that is for trapo design motors. And BTW an ideal matched sine motor/sino controller will achieve only 87% the torque that an ideal trap motor/ trap controller can get. You just may be getting a little more torque with the trap controller [called square wave] on the sino motor but overall efficiency goes down and we hear noise.

see: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=16376

Yes, Alex07 what you point out seems like a good starting point to quiet down the C-3000. But Robo says he is bothered by the gear noise not the chain noise or mismatched controller/motor noise?

Do AFT products have a customer satisfaction guarantee/return policy?

 

[spinningmagnets]

I agree Alex07, steel on steel would be loud enough, but...when I mentioned helical gears...this is a well-trodden path around ES. Long before we had the current selection of motors, many geared hubmotors were sacrificed (the BPM in particular) in the gathering of hot-rodding information.

The configuration of having a steel sun and ring gear has been pondered by engineers much smarter than me, and found to be satisfactory. The planetary gears are easily replaced if they are damaged, so making them from an inexpensive plastic makes sense. They also act as a "mechanical fuse" when the rider overloads them. A good point was made about side-loading, and of course, some concessions would have to be made for inserting "thrust bearings", but they are thin and affordable.

The price for one set would be prohibitive, economies of scale would suggest perhaps a group buy of 100 units, before a machinists' prices would drop to an affordable level (I could be wrong, who knows?). Although...I can't shake the nagging feeling that some engineer somewhere has figured out a way to make steel on steel helicals quiet, because that's what car automatic transmissions use. That being said, steel planetary gears would increase the cost, and I don't think they'd be necessary.

Want to know the cheapest way to alter the ratio and quietness of the reduction? Buy a Lightning Rods small block. The motor is the same size as the Cyclone-3000, and once you put a housing over the rubber belt, it really very quiet. Changing the ratio involves buying a $20 Kart sprocket. As far as strength, the LR reduction can take more power than the motor.

The benefit of the Cyclone is the cheap price. The drawbacks are the noise and the mounting bracket that needs reinforcing. I don't feel there's anything wrong with it. It's an affordable hot rod with a few compromises to keep the price down.

 

[DingusMcGee]

This 11 min video may be off-thread:

http://plugbike.com/2011/11/17/electric-motion-em-5-7/

[my apologies]but it covers some trials riding of a 95kg electric motor cycle. The Electric Motion Cycle has the looks of something ES member recumpence has build but with without petals. We may have to use something other than the C-3000 motor or the LRSB to get this good of a low speed high torque response as we see here. I could not find out what motor they use.

Some observation: Excellent riders performing in their playground. Their problems have plenty of real estate to set up/maneuver for the head on problem compared to the rocky constrained trails of WY that I try to onsight. These enduro bikes may measure out to a 53" wheel base yet I see that some vintage trials moto-bikes had a 41" wheel base which is what my C-3000 Specialized Pro Hardtail ebike has -- think maneuvering in a tight space? Well, these guys bounce their long bikes around when they need a different alignment angle -- where plenty of "flatish" real estate exists? Not on top of those square structures?

For retail Mtn Bike rear setups we do not see the likes of the enduro setup where distance from the BB to the rear axle is longer than about 17" nor do we see the rear spring hooked directly from the single stay to the frame. Believe me there is a reason for this Horst Bar/holobar modified rear suspension over what we see in the enduro design.

A popular discussion link on rear suspension:

http://forums.mtbr.com/shocks-suspension/horst-vs-dw-link-vs-vpp-vs-maestro-vs-single-pivot-vs-862728.html

And Robo our ebikes may weigh all of 25 kg so I suspect with practice you can get those builds of yours off the ground on both wheels at the same time -- a bunny hop if you will? Oh! and BTW did you find the noise these Electric Motion Cycles make too loud?

Would the Monster 7500 watt Cyclone Motor give us similar performance to these Electric Motion Cycles? One speed. Or could the C-3000 hold up to high amperage short bursts needed for these maneuvers? We know at 6.5 kw the c-3000 motor gives off 3kw in heat.

And for the seat recumpence says:

I like the idea of a bicycle seat if for no other reason than it makes the bike look more bicycle like and should reduce police stops. However, if you have ever ridden a dirt bike, there are times you want to slide up to the tank to rail around corners, or slide back on the seat at other times. That is not possible with a bike seat. Also, my riding style (on a dirt bike) is that I occasionally land off smaller jumps with some weight on the seat. You need a larger seat for that.

 

[Johne-bike]

I spoke to Paco at Cyclone last week regarding ordering a new Cyclone 3000w kit, and following some discussions on email, he confirmed Cyclone have a new, strengthened motor mount and BB system coming in the New Year for this motor. I have asked him for more details, timing and pricing but as yet have not received a response. Looks like the days of Tangentenial Motor Mounts, Washer Jobs,and the like may be a thing of the past, come 2017..! Deep Joy..!!