new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

That looks awesome dude!!! SUPER NICE!! I so wish I had something to build my own trike... unfortunately I am worthless when it comes to welding stuff together... don't even own one... so I have to settle for what's available out there.

I am not sure how it will end up... but for now lets hope I don't end up dead with a 60+ mph tadpole... smashed into a telephone pole...

G.

Aftonrider said:
gman1971 said:
Thanks Dom,

I went back today again to the bicycle expo to test ride those things, again... man, let me tell you, I am in sold. I have my eBike that works well, so the Trike will be something I take my time to build since I don't need something right away.

Ride safe as well! :)

I'll be watching your progress, if you need anything, just PM me and I'll respond.

G.


Hi Gman

I've been checking out your vids, cool stuff. I'm sure your tadpole will be amazing.

Here's a link to some pics of my trike

http://forum.atomiczombie.com/gallery/browseimages.php?do=member&imageuser=9105

Check them out.

Afton Rider
Dom
 
DingusMcGee said:
We had a deep wet snowstorm last week and when riding, snow was pushed between the two big chain rings forcing the motor chain off towards the plastic chainring chainguard. Soon that plastic guard broke.

Rather that purchase a new guard, I extended the coverage of the home built polycarbonate motor pulley guard to cover the big motor chainring where clothing might get caught.



When the chainguard was off I replaced the OEM tensioner pulley with one having a better chain mating profile and roller bearings. This replacement lessened the already quite quiet drivetrain whisper/sound.

Ouch... that must've been a serious snowstorm... so far I've managed without issues on the snow... how is it handling?

G.
 
sather said:
To: Gman1971
I just ordered a Cyclone from Luna. I would really appreciate your help with the install.
Questions:
1. Will the bottom bracket that comes with the stock Cyclone damage my bike? If so
will the optional ISIS bottom bracket and cranks that Luna sells be adequate?
2. What are the instructions for getting the cyclone into Mode #3?
3. Where is the best place to buy triple chainrings for the cyclone?
4. I notice on Youtube that you are using a Cycle analyst . Does it plug directly into the Cyclone controller, or require modification to the plugs? Which model of CycleAnalyst? Do you use the Bus model?
5. What type voltage regulator (brand, model and where to buy) do you use to get down to 7.5 volts for headlight and horn?
I would be grateful for any info you can provide.

Thanks

Hey sather,

1 - No, the reason behind getting the ISIS BB is b/c the crank will be perfectly straight... this is important to prevent chain throwing.
2 - Once you get the controller you'll see a three prong female white connector coming from the controller. You need to short from center to pink (if that gives you mode #1 then its the other cable) or you can get the Cyclone 3 speed switch directly from Cyclone Taiwan if you don't want to mess with it. I've been running mode #3 for almost 600 miles now, no issues to date.
3 - I got mine from Cyclone Taiwan. I would advise to get a 48-48-32 so you take apart the 44-44 that you got from Luna and use the outermost 44 from the 44-44 you got from Luna and bolt the two inner 48-32 cranks from the 48-48-32 that you'll get from Cyclone. This will give you a 44-48-32T chainring.
4 - I am using Cycle Analyst as stand alone. I use an external shunt. It is available from Luna as well. The shunt has a connector that plugs onto the C.A. and one end goes to the battery, the other to the controller. I have it behind everything so I can measure my headlights and other stuff power draw as well.
5 - I am using this guy but this will limit you at 48V (or 12S lipo) http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__40274__Hobbyking_YEP_20A_HV_2_12S_SBEC_w_Selectable_Voltage_Output.html
I am using two amazon cheap CREE XML-T6 housings but with a pair of MT-G2 LEDS. Don't try to solder an XML LED to 7.5 volts, it will blow. The reason why this works is b/c the cable is thin enough to provide resistance so the LED doesn't blow. I think each it is putting out somewhere around 3000-3500 lumens... it has wider beam and longer thrown than my car HIDs... (for trike I plan on using 2 MT-G2 and 2 XHP-70 for high beams/flash to pass, same housing.

Let me know how it goes! (Sorry for the late reply, I was out)

G.
 
StinkyGoalieGuy said:
EMCO said:
gman1971 said:
Get the Cyclone ISIS BB 100mm, its on their website, nothing else will work since it won't clear the motor.

G.


Looking at cyclone's website. All the ISIS BB's I see have a spindle length of 148mm, but only have a shell width of 68-73 or 83. No 100mm options. the ones I found on ebay have the same spindle length (148mm) and a 100mm shell length. I'm assuming these will work, they are the same spindle length as the ones on cyclone's website. The only other, longer ones I see are square taper (witch I don't want) that are 178x 68-120 and 170x 68-110.

http://www.cyclone-e-bikes.com/order-chainwheel.htm

EMCO, please do report back and let us know if the 148mm spindle length works. It would be good to have a few options.

Hey EMCO, did that 148mm spindle length Giga Pipe ISIS bottom bracket allow the cranks to clear the motor?
 
Gman,

... how is it handling?

I was going slow in the snow so no chain destruction etc.


This bike has the biggest knobby tires that would fit in the fork and stays. They are Maxxis DHF 26 x 2.70 and Maxxis DHR 26 x 2.4. This tire set up when on snow makes this bike the best performer below the fatbikes of all my bikes. Traction on snow is outstanding but the bike deflects right and left much easier than the fatbikes do in similar snow. I will put a percentage comparison on its snow performance compared to Specialized Fatboy less than 35% but manageable -- leg outriggers.

The Specialized Fatboy gets it grace on snow from the 4.6 x 26 Specialized tire. They quite thin and very supple compared to the Maxxis tires on the C-3000. But fatbike bike tires brands are far from equal. The Mongoose Dolomite fatbike comes with stiffer tires 4.0 x26 that do not work as well in snow but they get zero flats in cold weather from goatheads. Both Stan's sealant and Slime green freeze, clump and cease to work in sub freezing temps. As far I know there is no version of the Specialized Fatboy 4.6 x 26 in the width of 2.5" which would fit the C3000 and add to its snow performance.

On second thought the fatboy tires on dry pavement are far noisier than I like.

The other news is that I have taken the Crystalyte Crown TC-65 [24" rim] hub motor out of the Specialized full suspension bike and ordered a second C-3000 to install in it. I will have to make a custom shaped battery pack to fit the triangle but getting 52v at 20 Ah looks quite doable. I am using LG 18650 Hg2 3000mah cells. I am also looking at going for 72 v for more range but the pack must fit centrally.
 
gman1971,

could you tell me a little more info on your lipo pack? What is your total watts hrs per cell or per 12s string pack? Or simply Ah at some voltage? Do you charge each cell individually?
 
Sather,
No prob. I think you'll be pleased with the performance. Don't forget to add the washers to the motor mounts and to use red loctite to the bolts, otherwise vibration will loosen them up after a few miles. (It happened to me at less than 100 miles) Not an issue since. I also recommend a rubberized plastic block to rest the motor against the downtube. Use a good spanner wrench to tighten the ISIS BB flanges, those need to be tighten to stun so the motor cannot be moved back and forth by hand pressure alone.
EDIT: Do not use the zipties, wrap the big hose clamp around the downtube and around the motor plates. It should grab the entire motor at the bolts; I'll post pics of how I did it on mine. Don't use the ziptie for the tensioner; hook the spring directly to the motor bolt. Also I would recommend doing the tensioner modification I suggested along with the washer mod.

Dingus.
These are the packs I am currently running on my eBike: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__74096__MultiStar_High_Capacity_6S_12000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack.html
I have over 140 cycles on them already, and so far they are holding real well. I did noticed that now they drop to 45 volts really fast compared to when they were new, but they stay at around 44 volts for most of the trip; then at around 8000 or so mAh they start to go down into the 43 volts. So their discharge curve is pretty much linear once they get past their initial 50-45 volt spike. They are more than 12000, I had to push them once and exceeded 13000 mAh and voltage was still above 42 volts (or ~3.7 per cell) so I think they are somewhat underrated.

For charging I use a balancing board and home made Deans to XT-90 parallel cable for parallel charging. I use this charger at work:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__77311__Turnigy_Reaktor_300W_20A_AC_DC_Synchronous_Balance_Charger_Discharger_EU_Plug_EU_Warehouse_.html
and this other guy at home.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__23590__TURNIGY_MEGA_400W_V2_Lithium_Polymer_Battery_Charger_Version_2_US_Warehouse_.html

Sometimes I'll just parallel bulk charge them if I've barely discharged them... otherwise they get hooked up to the balancing port.


Hope this helps.

G.
 
gman1971 said:
Sather,
No prob. I think you'll be pleased with the performance. Don't forget to add the washers to the motor mounts and to use red loctite to the bolts, otherwise vibration will loosen them up after a few miles. (It happened to me at less than 100 miles) Not an issue since. I also recommend a rubberized plastic block to rest the motor against the downtube. Use a good spanner wrench to tighten the ISIS BB flanges, those need to be tighten to stun so the motor cannot be moved back and forth by hand pressure alone.
EDIT: Do not use the zipties, wrap the big hose clamp around the downtube and around the motor plates. It should grab the entire motor at the bolts; I'll post pics of how I did it on mine. Don't use the ziptie for the tensioner; hook the spring directly to the motor bolt. Also I would recommend doing the tensioner modification I suggested along with the washer mod.

Dingus.
These are the packs I am currently running on my eBike: http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__74096__MultiStar_High_Capacity_6S_12000mAh_Multi_Rotor_Lipo_Pack.html
I have over 140 cycles on them already, and so far they are holding real well. I did noticed that now they drop to 45 volts really fast compared to when they were new, but they stay at around 44 volts for most of the trip; then at around 8000 or so mAh they start to go down into the 43 volts. So their discharge curve is pretty much linear once they get past their initial 50-45 volt spike. They are more than 12000, I had to push them once and exceeded 13000 mAh and voltage was still above 42 volts (or ~3.7 per cell) so I think they are somewhat underrated.

For charging I use a balancing board and home made Deans to XT-90 parallel cable for parallel charging. I use this charger at work:
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__77311__Turnigy_Reaktor_300W_20A_AC_DC_Synchronous_Balance_Charger_Discharger_EU_Plug_EU_Warehouse_.html
and this other guy at home.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__23590__TURNIGY_MEGA_400W_V2_Lithium_Polymer_Battery_Charger_Version_2_US_Warehouse_.html

Sometimes I'll just parallel bulk charge them if I've barely discharged them... otherwise they get hooked up to the balancing port.


Hope this helps.

G.

Ciclon engine work well with a discharge time 10C?

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=66310
 
Regarding those lipo packs, how many cycles will they last.
I know it depends on current, weather, maintenance etc....
I just would like to know the average life of these packs.

Thank you!
 
koman,

Thanks for directing me to the 16Ah cell pack. I may need these cells to build the pack for my Specialized FSB c-3000 or gman's recommendation.

I have run several sets of homemade Headway LIFePo4 packs and with the 40152 cells rated 15Ah I can get no more than 80% energy out as after 12 Ah the useful energy to moving the bike is gone. So my reasoning is the packs that gman uses would have a rating of 15Ah.


Bohmer Chomski,

the number of charge cycles does matter but so does vibration and shock withstanding ability. My Towne Bike [> 3000 miles] uses a LiFePo4 a pack of 32 cells that all still have high voltage. Will I see 2000 recharges as advertised/specified? I also ran a pack of pack of 44 FePO4 cells in the FSB offroad bike. Each cell was snugged tight in the container using carpenters shims. At about 1200 miles of gravel and full rough 2-track I started getting cell failures. Six of these were ruptured cells that leaked out the bottom -- you soon learn the distinct juice odor of ruptured LiFePO4 cell failure. Carry a jumper wire to cover the bad cell but be sure to disconnect the BMS and you still have power to get home. LiFePO4 charge density weight wise is about 40% that of top rated 18650s -- so these bikes are quite heavy. Once these LiFePO4 cells are worn out I suspect I will not go that way again.

My experience with the vibration and shock withstanding ability of top quality 18650's is that they are very durable for this type of abuse. While rock climbing I have seen Makita and Milwaukee 18v tool packs of 18650 cells [come off the drill or fall out of the pack] bounce off the solid granite deck 45 feet below and still have a long life with high performance. All my tool batteries are numbered so they have a trackable history when they get abuse.

Gman,

can cycle life equal/yield 500 recharges and then 80% capacity on the lipos and how durable are they to very rough conditions that do enhance drive train shock loading? I suspect they survive RC airplane crashes and get many bounces when used in RC offroad toys. Tell me your thoughts.
 
I use LIPO packages, but not as the engine 10C with these batteries discharge time works.
I use this model http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/__9176__Turnigy_5000mAh_6S_20C_Lipo_Pack.html

Anyone have experience with 10C battery discharge time?

A model are 6s1phttp://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=74096 and the first model are 6s2p. http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewItem.asp?idproduct=66310
That would be the correstas batteries for this kit cyclone?
I use those 6s1p.
http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/...x6S_Lithium_Polymer_Battery_Pack_Charger.html
The charger I use is this four ports, not if you can serve,
No they differ, but I can not help
 
Thanks for info DingusMcGee.

I have using lifepo4, yup they are very durable and shock absorbing.
I have using lipo's few years ago for my RC hobby, in those days they were very expensive and not reliable. Just after some crash or hard riding the felt warm or became very thick! (in winter time).
So I can conclude lipo chemistry is still the same as they were introduced?

Yes I have Samsung 25r 18650 cells, they perform great.
No voltages lag or out balance voltages between cells.
So I may use 18650 cells again.
The most concerns are: weight, soldering etc. etc.
I am a little lazy to make my own packs again.
O well you have to do something to fill your wishes.... :mrgreen:
 
Boomer Chomski,

I have using lifepo4, yup they are very durable and shock absorbing.

judging by what you say in the above quote we have not had the same experience with LiFePO4's. In Summary, I have found them[Headway 42152] far less durable than Samsung or LG 18650's but when using the LiFePO4 gently you may get > 1000 recharges.
 
Yes ofcourse I agree with you.
I mean compare to lipo they are durable when using (at low current) :x :x
Yes I still have 42152 cells, when in action they are getting very hot and voltage sag..... :oops: So I hate them and put them in a corner 8)

I have abused them a lot, cells are still alive.
When I did this to lipo, I had to cried... :cry:

Yup totally agree with 18650, I using these cells now.
No more back to life4po.
I was just curious of lipo, due their weight and ready to run packs....
O well I will made my own 18650 pack again :D
I am using 18650 cells without bms, after some runs I am balancing them with my RC charger.
 
Boomer Chomski,

I am using 18650 cells without bms, after some runs I am balancing them with my RC charger

I can see that as there are several to many cells in parallel as opposed to when charging a single string you can easily overcharge the quick to charge cells before the high voltage shut off of the charger takes effect and shuts down charging.
 
KOMAM,
Those batteries should work fine. I have the same but 12,000 and I have over 140 cycles on them. They are fine; obviously don't pump 150 amps out of them, but at the 40-50 amp rating on the controller these should work great.


As for other news, I think the KMX trike frame/parts will be here sometime mid next week. I am debating if I should order the 140 amp controller from Cylone instead of the regular 40 amp one or something like the Phaserunner, or maybe another controller that integrates directly with C.A v3. I am currently running CA v2 but I would like to have some of the functionality on the V3 actually used, like cruise control, throttle management, power management and temperature readings without additional stuff. Any thoughts on what controller (that won't be ridiculously expensive) might work with CA v3 as a plug and play?

G.
 
DingusMcGee said:
Boomer Chomski,

I have using lifepo4, yup they are very durable and shock absorbing.

judging by what you say in the above quote we have not had the same experience with LiFePO4's. In Summary, I have found them[Headway 42152] far less durable than Samsung or LG 18650's but when using the LiFePO4 gently you may get > 1000 recharges.

hahha, using them "gently" haha... we are talking about a hotrod mid-drive kit! :D :mrgreen: who is going to treat these "Gently" :D

The reasons why I passed on the 18650 route were b/c I didn't want to deal with the soldering nightmare; and these tend to be heavier than their LiPo equivalents and then there is the "buying premade" deal, and well we all know that its a bit expensive. :) So, for now I am sticking with LiPos for the Trike as well. The plan is to run x3 20,000 mAh packs in series for 72V, that should give me 1440 W/h, which is triple of what I carry now on my ebike, and that should triple the range at 30mph average, or around 40 miles at full power. I am also tempted to go 3s2p for 72 V and 40,000 mAh, and that should yield 2880 W/h, or close to 100 miles on a single charge on power alone. The point is that sometimes when I get home I have to wait for the dang thing to recharge so I can go for another 8-9 miles at full power... I am set to end that with the trike; basically build a true car replacement.

G.
 
Yeah I think I should try lipo, they are less expensive (ready to run).
I had to spend a lot of money when I was making my 20S 25R pack > high qaulity wires, connectors, copper strips etc... And not to forget, soldering involve a lot of time :mrgreen:

For mid drive is just for fun, so distance is less preferable.. 8)
 
BoomerChomsi said:
Yeah I think I should try lipo, they are less expensive (ready to run).
I had to spend a lot of money when I was making my 20S 25R pack > high qaulity wires, connectors, copper strips etc... And not to forget, soldering involve a lot of time :mrgreen:

For mid drive is just for fun, so distance is less preferable.. 8)

Distance is directly proportional to the depth of your pockets. :) and so is speed.

G.
 
So, today I decided to properly clean the BMX drivechain and while it was apart I also tested it for stretch. Most of the links were at the .75% stretch or slightly past it, so I went ahead and replaced it.

The thing to consider here is that I've had this chain on my ebike since the beginning, effectively October last year. It was used with my GNG kit first, and then it marched on when I installed the Cyclone. So this chain has close to 2500 miles on it, and about 1000 of those 2500 miles were from the GNG kit which was a high torque/low RPM setup. In contrast my 10 speed chain still hasn't tipped the .5% stretch ruler on most of the links, but I can see its getting very close to that. While the BMX drivechain was apart I also inspected the 44T outer chainring for problems, and seems its holding fairly well when considering I've had that chainring since November last year and has about 2000 miles on it, and 900 the GNG kit. I didn't see any teeth destroyed or chewed up, so it is holding real well.

Replacing chains is something that has to be done and 2500 out of an inexpensive bike chain isn't too bad. I expect the replacement to last a lot longer since it won't have to deal with the massive torque of the GNG... :)

G.
 
Oh my goodness. I just stumbled upon this post. Looks like I'm going to have to redo all my calculations! =) So the Cyclone actually has the same reduction as the GNG belt-drive mid drive. Thank you so much for making the animation!

turbo1889 said:
Okay, first off somewhere I read that the planetary reduction on this kit had a 4.91-to-1 gear down ratio. This did not sound right to me. Picture on the first page of this thread shows a simple single stage planetary reduction unit with an input sun gear will 11-teeth and three planet gears with 22-teeth each. Its difficult to count the ring gears teeth but careful scrutiny of the image and counting gives me a 55-teeth ring gear which mathematically makes sense, because on a simple planetary gearing system without complex two stage planets the following formula is used: (sun gear teeth count) + 2 x (planet gear teeth count) = (ring gear teeth count)

Thus with the input being the sun gear and the output being the planet carrier and the ring gear being fixed the reduction ratio must be 6-to-1 (ring gear teeth count) / (sun gear teeth count) + 1 = (reduction ratio)

I think someone made two mistakes in their math. First they forgot that with a planetary reduction gear box with a sun gear input and planetary carrier output and fixed ring gear you get a full extra rotation of "bonus" reduction due to the over-running orbits the planets make. Accounting for an incorrect 5-to-1 vs. correct 6-to-1 calculation. And then by miscounting the ring gear teeth by one less, AKA counting 54 rather then 55 teeth on the ring gear that would give them an incorrect reduction of 4.909090909090909---> repeating pattern which rounds down to a two decimal (incorrect) result of a 4.91-to-1 reduction ratio:

Long story short we have exactly a 6-to-1 reduction ratio in the planetary gear box on the motor. Which considering the motors free spinning no-load output after the gear box is specified as follows on the Sick Bike Parts (.com) (a U.S. seller offering just the motor itself domestically for those so desiring):

36v e-bike pack = 450-rpm
48v e-bike pack = 600-rpm
60v e-bike pack = 750-rpm
72v e-bike pack = 900-rpm

Well depending on exactly what was the actual pack voltage they used the Kv of the motor itself is going to be somewhere around 75-Kv. The "small block" motor the the Lightening Rods Kit uses and which is used on the GNG kits is fairly well established to be around 67-Kv or so. Might be the exact same motor assuming someone slighlty inflated their output RPMs by running the motor using a pack that was hot off the charger and at higher then rated nominal voltage. Or it could be a similar motor that has just a very slightly higher Kv rating maybe just one turn less on its windings or such.

For those not convinced that you get an extra full turn of gear reduction then would be initially assumed out of a planetary gear reduction box like this motor uses I threw together some simplified 2D-CAD model frames and assembled them into animated .gif files to demonstrate. Continuous running version first and then slow motion version so you can more easily count the rotations by the timing marks with a couple second pause at TDC when all the timing marks line up. As you can see it takes 6 full turns of the 11-t sun gear that is the input from the motor to get a single full rotation output from the planet gear carrier (represented by the purple triangle). I used lobe cog gears simply because they are quicker and easier to draw then toothed gears but the principle holds true regardless:



24464382580_a5dff4e5a1_o.gif




24733684566_c02c296c2a_o.gif
 
I thought of another way to reinforce the bracket, and I was wondering what you thought about it. You could mount a piece of metal to the motor bolts on the left, and then use longer bolts to mount the left bracket. I've added a blue line to the image attached below to show where the bracket would be added, or are the washers adequate to keep the bolts from bending? Would you happen to remember what size the washers are? I'll bring the spacer with me to the store to find something that fits.

gman1971 said:
...And here is where you need to place a bunch of washers to fix the flexing support. This added a considerable amount of torsional rigidity. (in BLUE)
12489417_908083989305806_77333530466440993_o.jpg


G.
 

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robocam,
That would work, indeed; I think thats how LR has done his bracket mod..., but the best way IMO to actually solve the flex would be to use a metal block that bolts the two plates together: that will eliminate all flex at the mounting bolts.

For the trike I am going to do the washer mod, but also bolt the support frames to the crank tube, and that should eliminate all flex. Also, running the motor at high RPMs will prevent the thing from flexing too, since all you're doing is spinning the snot out of it. That is part of the reason why its been running so well for so long.

G.
 
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