new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

Wanted to ask about this proposed build for a cyclone kit:

Mongoose Terrex mid-fat
http://www.walmart.com/ip/45146057
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72910

with a sturmey-archer 3 speed IGH and upgraded brakes, fork, and maybe a thudbuster. I'd like to mount the cyclone inside the triangle if possible. I'll probably carry the battery in a backpack for starters. Seems like it would be a pretty solid and fun budget build.
 
spinningmagnets said:
When using the 3-speed IGH with high power, the 2nd gear is MUCH stronger than first and third. Keep that in mind when choosing chainring tooth-counts and planning which gear you pop wheelies in...

Terrex has 27.5 X 2.8-inch mid-fat tires...https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=72910
Click to expand...

I do understand what you are saying/implying, however, I'm still pretty new to all of this. Do you have a suggestion on chainring tooth-count?

I thought a decent IGH would be nice -- as long as I'm not shifting under load and get a decent HD chain, I thought it would help reliability and maintenance.
 
Well, one of my Cyclone trikes just turned 2000 troublefree miles, with more than a few 60+ mph runs here and there and plenty offroad stuff, along with a few donuts too. No chain issues, no mount deflection, no tangetial nonsensical loads, etc... works as designed, and doesn't look like the plywoodmobile, I guess some people need to put aside the deflection calipers and learn other things. Never bothered checking for voltage either...

Robo, I finally implemented your side plate mod holding the motor in two points now. Works great, thanks!
Rage, good to see you're getting your stuff working how you wanted. BTW, I appreciate you trying to reconcile things between the "plywoodmobile builder" and I, but I have nothing further to say: I've built four eBikes and two trikes capable of 65mph to show that what I explained on this thread really works, why and that it can be replicated, regardless of whatever others pretend to say. What really matters is that you built what you dreamed of building and that's good enough for me; the how you got there should be no reason for anyone to get worked up or to discredit your work. (I guess others get all worked up about how you got there, claiming it was wrong etc...)

My 2nd Cyclone 3000W e-Trike has racked ~400 miles running absolutely troublefree as well, and this is running 60A @ 12S; and soon to be 18S as well. So far, zero motor mount issues, zero chain issues, etc... In fact, I yet have to throw a chain on any of my trikes or eBikes. And we take them off road every day... heck, I take them so offroad that I almost dunk mine into a swamp couple of weeks ago while riding in the absolutely middle of nowhere at night...

So here are some 2000 miles mark comments from running 90A peaks @ 18S LiPo. Lets see how the plywoodmobile builder tears them down.

-Robocam your mount mod has been working flawlessly, after 2000 miles no chains ever came off, not even at peak power at 6.5 kW @ 67 mph.
-The stock freewheels suck, both suck motor HD 14T and the stock crank one; My advice would be to replace them all with better ones.
-KMC BMX chains suck, get a Connex.
-Don't bother replacing the adapter for the motor freewheel, get a new one altogether.
-If you can, enclose the chain so it gets the least amount of dirt. The difference is astounding how much less you have to clean.
-Broke one steering knuckle before I installed the suspension. Hit a chunk of road that had broken off @ ~30 mph... rim survived, I didn't wreck (sorry dingus), just a pinch flat and two broken spokes (and the damaged knuckle)
-I had to run the damaged knuckle for a few days until replacement arrived so I ruined the tire during those few days, basically the toe and camber got so screwed up that the tire chewed up... so I had to replace them both with different tires. And new tires are holding well after 1000 miles, suspension has made a huge difference. I am running Schwalbe Tryker 20x1.5 fronts, much better, grippier and have measurable lower rolling resistance than the 20x1.5 Marathons.
-I've recharged my packs a total of 36 times now, and my average Wh/mile over this past 2000 miles is ~27 Wh/mile. Not bad for a 67 mph capable Trike. At this rate I'll get about 20k miles before I have to start thinking about new batteries. My old 12,000 Multistar batteries are now at 280 cycles, and still holding fairly well, maybe a 10% capacity degradation based on amount of miles they now can go for?

Cheers, and will report in at 4k miles.

G.
 
I suppose it was your left knuckle?


i
Hit a chunk of road that had broken off @ ~30 mph... rim survived,
Click to expand...

Sounds like exactly what happens when you sit so low you cannot see the road ahead and your machine is so wide that the shoulder doesn't offer any escape but yet the machine too slow to hold the main lane speed?


just a pinch flat and two broken spokes (and the damaged knuckle)
Click to expand...

knuckle heads get damaged knuckles when in the wrong space?
 
For those that have this motor, where does most of this noise come from? Is it the gearbox, the chains, or the motor whine?
 
The main noise comes from the motor's gearbox. Are you trying to decide between the BBSHD and the Cyclone based on noise? If so, you may prefer the BBSHD. If you want more power, the Cyclone is the way to go. Do you have a top speed you want to reach? I like the Cyclone because it allows me to have "normal" mountain bike gearing. I can use a 24/34 or 24/38 up front.

StinkyGoalieGuy said:
For those that have this motor, where does most of this noise come from? Is it the gearbox, the chains, or the motor whine?
Click to expand...
 
The main noise comes from the gears.
Click to expand...

What does gears mean? the motor's planetary gears?

Robocam, Using the ExTech sound level meter [set pattern A]and held at just above the front derailleur [FD] and next held just over the motor freewheel pulley I get very close to equal magnitudes of high intensity sounds from these 2 areas for a constant bike speed. One could reasonably argue that the sounds coming from near the front Derailleur were caused by the 2 chain wheels and chains while the sounds coming from the motor freewheel area[MFA] were a combination of the motor freewheel gear/chain and the planetary gears within the motor.

In equation form:

FD noise Function of [44T rear & Chain + 44T & motor chain] = MFA noise Function of [ 14T motor sprocket freewheel & chain + planetary gears]

and we know that 14T motor sprocket & chain are not noiseless. The chain links at the motor freewheel do have the greatest accelerations [therefore not = zero] and all 4 quantities are positive.

Therefore:

FD noise Function of [44T rear & Chain + 44T & motor chain] + noise Function of [14T sprocket & chain ] >> noise Function of [motor planetary gears.]

Or: Noise from sprockets & chains >> Noise from motor planetary gears

I would say the noise is mostly from the chains and sprockets and not the planetary gears based upon some actual measurements. What were your measurements?

FYI my chain was oiled.
 
Curiosity killed the cat ? aint gonna kill me !

I got SBP new freewheels , and out of curiosity I opened the (unscrewed the ring side of crank freewheel ) ,Now i'm stuck :oops: it wont screw back on .It locks up with a bit more that 1/8" to complete closure .

Is anyone with some trick for reassembly ,to srew that flat ring cover part ?

Good thing is I reproduced the "Failiure" that the original freewheel is doing .It has to do with too much space or partially unscrewed parts .With I believe give the bearing space to move where they should not be and PAF they locket up ,That make sense to anyone ?

I'l keep looking the web for info of this until I can solve that .Brand new part I cant use what a shame .

FYI I am not crying I find this very funny :lol:

I can also add that there is no grease in that freewheel it is what I believe to be some oil ,the type my mom use for her sewing machines called "5 in One" very light lubricant .I will have to ge me a new can almost out btw :!:
 
robocam said:
The main noise comes from the motor's gearbox. Are you trying to decide between the BBSHD and the Cyclone based on noise? If so, you may prefer the BBSHD. If you want more power, the Cyclone is the way to go. Do you have a top speed you want to reach? I like the Cyclone because it allows me to have "normal" mountain bike gearing. I can use a 24/34 or 24/38 up front.
Click to expand...

Yes, I already have the BBSHD and I like how quiet it is. Buy I want more power. Top speed of 25 MPH on the flats on a dirt trail I could be happy with. But more importantly, I would like 10MPH on a 32% grade. The BBSHD can do about 3MPH on a 32% grade when geared low enough.

If the noise is from the chain on the Cyclone, I can try to mitigate that with lower RPMs, but pump more amps through it. Maybe 48 volts at 60 or 70 amps? I know the drive train will take some serious punishment, so maybe go left hand drive? If the noise is motor whine, spinning the motor slower should help as well. But if the noise is from the planetary reduction, I don't know if this would help or if this would even kill those gears.

The other option for lots of torque with low noise would be to run a direct drive hub as a mid drive, but that would be about 20lbs and the diameter of such a motor would be much bigger.

Or should I run a BHT with lots of amps and low RPMs to achieve this?
 
What chainring do you have right now? I'm wondering if you've tried the 30T.

Are you just bothered by the noise, or do you not want others to hear you? I don't think you'll notice the chain noise as much while you're riding, but the whine from the motor is definitely noticeable, especially under load. Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal but that's just me. Although, being inconspicuous might be nice at times when I don't want others to know I'm assisted.

You're asking for more than triple the speed, so you're going to need to increase the power accordingly. I wonder if going from a BBSHD to a Cyclone 3000 is a big enough change, perhaps at the levels of power Gman is running at? I don't think you're gonna damage the gearbox with 48V at 70 amps. Gman's running 90 amps with 18 cells!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1300#p1212028

Have you considered the Monster Cyclone? =) Maybe that's too crazy.

http://lunacycle.com/cyclone-XL-7500w-ebike-middrive/

I would just get the Cyclone 3000 and run it with the battery you have now to get a baseline. Then you can figure out if you want to increase the current, voltage, or both.

StinkyGoalieGuy said:
Yes, I already have the BBSHD and I like how quiet it is. Buy I want more power. Top speed of 25 MPH on the flats on a dirt trail I could be happy with. But more importantly, I would like 10MPH on a 32% grade. The BBSHD can do about 3MPH on a 32% grade when geared low enough.

If the noise is from the chain on the Cyclone, I can try to mitigate that with lower RPMs, but pump more amps through it. Maybe 48 volts at 60 or 70 amps? I know the drive train will take some serious punishment, so maybe go left hand drive? If the noise is motor whine, spinning the motor slower should help as well. But if the noise is from the planetary reduction, I don't know if this would help or if this would even kill those gears.

The other option for lots of torque with low noise would be to run a direct drive hub as a mid drive, but that would be about 20lbs and the diameter of such a motor would be much bigger.

Or should I run a BHT with lots of amps and low RPMs to achieve this?
Click to expand...
 
robocam said:
What chainring do you have right now? I'm wondering if you've tried the 30T.

Are you just bothered by the noise, or do you not want others to hear you? I don't think you'll notice the chain noise as much while you're riding, but the whine from the motor is definitely noticeable, especially under load. Personally, I don't think it's that big of a deal but that's just me. Although, being inconspicuous might be nice at times when I don't want others to know I'm assisted.

You're asking for more than triple the speed, so you're going to need to increase the power accordingly. I wonder if going from a BBSHD to a Cyclone 3000 is a big enough change, perhaps at the levels of power Gman is running at? I don't think you're gonna damage the gearbox with 48V at 70 amps. Gman's running 90 amps with 18 cells!

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1300#p1212028

Have you considered the Monster Cyclone? =) Maybe that's too crazy.

http://lunacycle.com/cyclone-XL-7500w-ebike-middrive/

I would just get the Cyclone 3000 and run it with the battery you have now to get a baseline. Then you can figure out if you want to increase the current, voltage, or both.
Click to expand...

I tried the BBSHD with a 42T up front to a 48T in the back plus an additional 2 to 1 reduction inside a Nuvinci 171. That will climb anything without pedalling, but at about 3MPH as I mentioned.

It's that I really don't want others to hear me. It's a popular trail and is my path to work. I don't want to draw any attention and risk getting banned or contribute to any other bad press that us eMTBers already have.

I was thinking of running Gman type power levels if I had to. But if it's the whine from the motors that is noticeable, that would be a deal breaker. I did see that there was a newer Cyclone 3000 exclusively for Luna that has quieter gears, but I imagine the motor whine would still be there.

That 7500W Cyclone looks crazy and I would need a really wide bottom bracket. :shock:
 
Your speed is going to be more noticeable than the sound.

I used to ride a trial like that in one of the DC suburbs and in order to avoid problems I just slow down to pedal speed or less when somebody was at sight (almost one). So no sound or danger when people were around.

Is not just the power or kit that you have, it is also how and where you ride.

Almost in my humble experience with the Cyclone 3000, is how fast you are what catch more attention form other people.
 
Yeah, I always slow down when passing people walking on the trail and add in some ghost pedaling. If it's other riders, I either wait until the trail branches off and hope they go another direction, or else I pass them very slowly. The BBSHD is quiet enough where they wouldn't even know I'm motorized. But if the motor is whining, I'm worried it's going to catch some attention especially if the park rangers are around. The problem with motor whine is it is a high frequency sound, so it tends to carry. One of those 32% grades I mentioned is right in front of the parking lot, so there is almost always some people there.
 
I don't think the "quieter" refers to anything Luna-exclusive. When I read that, I thought they were comparing it to the old Cyclone with metal gears, one they never sold.

What about increasing the current to the BBSHD?

StinkyGoalieGuy said:
I tried the BBSHD with a 42T up front to a 48T in the back plus an additional 2 to 1 reduction inside a Nuvinci 171. That will climb anything without pedalling, but at about 3MPH as I mentioned.

It's that I really don't want others to hear me. It's a popular trail and is my path to work. I don't want to draw any attention and risk getting banned or contribute to any other bad press that us eMTBers already have.

I was thinking of running Gman type power levels if I had to. But if it's the whine from the motors that is noticeable, that would be a deal breaker. I did see that there was a newer Cyclone 3000 exclusively for Luna that has quieter gears, but I imagine the motor whine would still be there.

That 7500W Cyclone looks crazy and I would need a really wide bottom bracket. :shock:
Click to expand...
 
2 ways to reduce sound:

1. Change the sound generating mechanism to one that produces less sound energy.

2. Surround the boundary of the sound producing mechanism with sound proofing material.

Want to reduce the motor sound? Try wrapping it in a Goodwill used down jacket -- sort of a motor housing. The sound energy reduction will be somewhat noticeable.


Want to reduce the chain sound? Build an enclosing chain guard -- LDPE material may work better than HDPE. Plastics will deaden sound better than metals. My face plate chain guard is clear poly carbonate. It is very strong and has hit many logs but since it does not enclose the chain anywhere sound comes from its sides.
 
robocam said:
I don't think the "quieter" refers to anything Luna-exclusive. When I read that, I thought they were comparing it to the old Cyclone with metal gears, one they never sold.

What about increasing the current to the BBSHD?
Click to expand...

This was mentioned in an email from Luna earlier this week: "The Cyclone 3000w is one of the best bargains we offer and is for sale for $349 for the kit. This is the newest cyclone kit made specifically for us which has annodized black brackets and uses a quieter gear reduction to make this thing much quieter than previous versions: "

It does sound a little ambiguous. But the way I read it, it's a newer version of the Cyclone 3000 kit. Hopefully someone from Luna can confirm.

Increasing the current on the BBSHD with an external controller is another option i'm considering.
 
DingusMcGee said:
2 ways to reduce sound:

1. Change the sound generating mechanism to one that produces less sound energy.

2. Surround the boundary of the sound producing mechanism with sound proofing material.
Click to expand...

Option 1 was the idea I was trying to pursue, with the whole increase current, reduce RPMs discussion.

Option 2 would be difficult as there is barely any clearance between motor and crank as it is now.
 
Coldrider,

Is anyone with some trick for reassembly ,to [screw] that flat ring cover part ?
Click to expand...


The person that can reassemble the motor freewheel is likely a watch jeweler.


but there are none to be found -- except for Rolex repairman?
 
How much faith ought we put in some of Gamn's posts?

This text was taken from a post in Electricbike.com >Home>Forum>Kits>Cyclone Mid Drives and is a post of Gman:

05-24-2016, 11:27 AM
That is one serious limitation, agreed, but the biggest one in my book is the lack of RPM, and with a 110 max crank RPM that to me is synonymous of a chain stretcher tool... I cringe every time I hear someone bragging about their 30 mph BBSxx eBike.... usually achieved on a 42T-11T combo... I can feel the pain of those poor 5 teeth (of the 11T cog) getting tortured with over 400 footpounds of torque.. and the chain, which usually hasn't been lubed in like 3 years, also making some painful metal ultimate-stress-failure sounds... Heck the mighty mini sounds like the mightiest chain stretcher of all times... if a 42 was bad... a 32T with 11T cog... ouch, talk about painful sounds... no wonder why mid drives get such a bad reputation for stretching chains and eating chainrings and cassettes...

G.
Alpha One 6000W tadpole
Click to expand...


In particular note the phrase getting tortured with over 400 footpounds of torque.. Is this guy man clueless with numbers? The 2000 -2006 Ford V10 got 360 ft-lbs torque.

For his tadpole build does 65 mph really mean 65 km/hr?

Now some post ago I did say from experimental tests that the motor did produce 400 lbs tangential chain pull at the motor freewheel hub[13T]. This translates to 400 x 0.9 /12 = 30 ft lb. = 40.67 Nm. This torque agrees [in the ballpark] with what the Russian group found the motor could produce.

Perhaps gman1971 has moved on to sling numbers on ElectricBike.com where no one would challenge him?

But his best line was ...the Cyclone 3000 is too powerful for the grin CA ...
 
I'm surprised you're comparing the torque of a gear-reduced motor to the crankshaft torque of an engine. It would make more sense to compare it with the torque at the axle. Let's say you have a 700R4 in 1st gear (3.06 reduction), a 4.10 rear end. Combined with the torque multiplication of the torque converter, that 360 ft lbs would become 11,291 tire-shredding ft lbs, maybe even a high as 23,000 ft lbs depending on the stall speed/converter design...I digress.

According to this page at Sick Bike Parts, the Cyclone 3000 motor is capable of 100Nm (73.8 ft lbs). I'm going to assume that rating is measured after the 6:1 planetary reduction. If you have the 13T from the Cyclone driving a 48T on your crankset, that multiplies the 73.8 to 272.5 ft lbs. If you have a 24T on the crankset driving a 42T in the cassette, the torque is now 476.9 ft lbs at the rear hub.

http://www.sickbikeparts.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=224&osCsid=vmbbji4lrvttr5ood5bb0ed7r1

But we're talking about chain tension right? At that torque, the chain is experiencing 854 lbs of tension, so if you're using the 11T cog, each tooth is experiencing about 170 lbs of force. Is that a lot? I have no idea. But I know that less would probably be better (make things last longer).

DingusMcGee said:
...In particular note the phrase getting tortured with over 400 footpounds of torque.. Is this guy man clueless with numbers? The 2000 -2006 Ford V10 got 360 ft-lbs torque.

Now some post ago I did say from experimental tests that the motor did produce 400 lbs tangential chain pull at the motor freewheel hub[13T]. This translates to 400 x 0.9 /12 = 30 ft lb. = 40.67 Nm. This torque agrees [in the ballpark] with what the Russian group found the motor could produce...
Click to expand...
 
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