new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[Alex07]

I like the Luna kit because it comes with black brackets. If you choose the ISIS crank arms, they are black as well. My brackets are raw aluminum, and I tried to paint them black, but the paint comes off once in a while. Other than that, they are fairly similar, with the exception of the $1000+ AFT kit which comes with upgrades that are mostly unnecessary in my opinion, certainly not worth the price. It has upgraded bearings in the planetary gearbox, but the regular Cyclone doesn't have any issue there. The crankset freewheel is a $20 part, at most $120 for the SBP version. They seal it with sealant, but all you need to do is drill 2 holes on the bottom to let the water out, or you can silicone it yourself. They provide upgraded brackets, but you can reinforce the bracket yourself with a few inexpensive parts from your local hardware store, or you can buy an upgraded bracket for ~$100. They provide a ball bearing idler pulley, but you can get one on eBay for less than $2 shipped. It's great that they have a "polished" version, but I think most DIYers are going to want to do it themselves. Gman has thousands of miles on his regular Cyclone. You could almost buy 3 Cyclones for the price of one AFT Cyclone. I really don't mean to knock it, but the price is just too much.

I think the AFT is pretty good value if you add up all the cost of the parts. you forget to mention it has the kelly FOC sine controller, acs freewheels and wipperman chain and i think proper instructions too etc etc its probably the best high power mid drive i have seen on here ?? and i'm still eagerly waiting for some reviews on it ....add those to the cost of any kit is a few hundred usd i would imagine so no wonder as it looks to be the best quality parts .

which part is unnecessary ? as they all seems to be different problems that have been addressed ? ceramic bearings ? they are a good idea in my opinion for people who want reliability and long life we use them in all of our motor upgrades at work, as apart from having less drag on the battery- who has enough battery ??? they would last heaps longer and more importantly be less susceptible to corrosion, if you read on here bearings are probably the number 1 failure mode of brush less motors and the stock cyclone is not even sealed ! so when water gets in their goes the bearings and maybe even the motor as it seizes up or shorts the halls..

 

[robocam]

The reason I say that the "upgrades" are unnecessary is because most of us use a stock Cyclone, and it is generally fine (after reinforcing the motor bracket). Some of us may experience a freewheel failure, but that is easy to fix and relatively inexpensive.

Gman has already proven that the "stock" Cyclone can provide thousands of miles of service under extreme power levels and environmental conditions.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&start=1375#p1223967

Less friction with ceramic bearings. Can you even detect a difference? If so, what kind of difference are we talking about here? A sine controller? What benefits will that provide? Does anyone here have a Cyclone with failed motor bearings? The bearings look like they'd be easy to replace. Just pull them out of the motor covers and install new ones. It's not surprising that the bearings are the number 1 failure mode (what motor RPM are you talking about here?) because they're the only moving part that can fail. What else can fail anyway? I doubt many here will use the Cyclone long enough to experience failed motor bearings. The hall sensors are inexpensive and easy to replace. We don't need a fancy chain on the motor. The bike chain is typically under more stress, and Gman has proven that a regular 10-speed chain can provide thousands of miles of service. You can probably get by just fine with a $4 chain from Amazon.

The Cyclone doesn't need to be sealed up to be operated outdoors. The solution to water entry is not to seal the unit but to drill drain holes on the bottom. I have done this to my Cyclone and my GNG, and it works great. The motor doesn't seem to care if water enters it. Problems only occur if water pools inside (hall sensors will die). The inside is not prone to heavy corrosion (this is based on personal experience after water pooled up inside my Cyclone for a long time). Worst case is a replacement motor for $100 shipped. Paco will take care of you if your hall sensors go bad. This is what the inside of my Cyclone looked like after water sat in there long enough to leave these kinds of marks.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&hilit=waterproof&start=1275#p1209434

Besides, none of that stuff should make a Cyclone cost over $1000. I honestly don't see how anyone could see that as a good value. We already know what's wrong with the Cyclone, and we have relatively inexpensive fixes available. For someone that's brand new to the Cyclone, has loads money, and doesn't want to get their hands dirty (really?), the AFT kit might be for them, but for us DIYers, the "stock" Cyclone is just fine. I'd be surprised if you found anyone here with that kit. People here are after the Cyclone because it's an awesome value (the cheapest and one of the most powerful mid drives). This is why it's so popular.

I think the AFT is pretty good value if you add up all the cost of the parts. you forget to mention it has the kelly FOC sine controller, acs freewheels and wipperman chain and i think proper instructions too etc etc its probably the best high power mid drive i have seen on here ?? and i'm still eagerly waiting for some reviews on it ....add those to the cost of any kit is a few hundred usd i would imagine so no wonder as it looks to be the best quality parts .

which part is unnecessary ? as they all seems to be different problems that have been addressed ? ceramic bearings ? they are a good idea in my opinion for people who want reliability and long life we use them in all of our motor upgrades at work, as apart from having less drag on the battery- who has enough battery ??? they would last heaps longer and more importantly be less susceptible to corrosion, if you read on here bearings are probably the number 1 failure mode of brush less motors and the stock cyclone is not even sealed ! so when water gets in their goes the bearings and maybe even the motor as it seizes up or shorts the halls..

 

[Alex07]

We already know what's wrong with the Cyclone, and we have relatively inexpensive fixes available. For someone that's brand new to the Cyclone, has loads money, and doesn't want to get their hands dirty (really?), the AFT kit might be for them, but for us DIYers, the "stock" Cyclone is just fine

You obliviously don't value your time much , i want to spend my time rideing the bike not fixing a cheap and nasty chinese kit ! its like saying the GNG is better than the LR kit only because its cheaper and i enjoy spending my time fixeing everything lol. If that was true everyone would be driving the cheapest Chinese car available on the road...because its cheap and they like fixing things.. sorry i have a full time job and kids and i don't have time to fix things all the time.


Their is a whole thread here with "fixes" for this motor , so they are far from perfect in stock form it seems, You obviously don't know much about motors if you think motor bearings don't fail or you don't use them enough before you buy another one.... We have dozens of motors in our factory and the number 1 failure mode is overheating of bearings/lack of lube or corrosion of bearings. Its the main moving part after all in a brush less/induction motor and ceramic bearings help for both of those failure modes, the efficiency gain is the side benefit. Also the Kelly foc seems an awesome controller as good or better than the FOC phase runner- Justin of Grintech i think has posted the gains of FOC are something like 6% so i will trust him that its better, range is important to me so any gain of efficiency is great.

I am looking to replace my second car, so i will be saveing like minimum 10k per year of all the car costs, fuel parking insurance depreciation etc so i don't mind spending more on a kit that is more reliable as i will be miles ahead anyway. For me reliability is the most important thing and the AFT seems the only kit that is optimised for long life and reliability. I will be using this to replace my car to get to work and doing lots of miles, so it's not an option for it breakdown going to work meetings ! also i want to get a large battery pack and take if far offroad so i don't want to be stranded in the middle of knowhere with a bike i cant push home, I have friends with the stock GNG and cyclone mid drive kits and i have seen all the time and effort they spent trying to get them to work, they tell me now they regret it and as they added up all the costs to fix parts with postage and downtime, they could of got a better kit to start with like the LR or AFT. In the end they gave up and went back to hub motors, so i'm not gona make the same mistakes get the AFT or LR i prefer the AFT-C3000w as it looks more compact/clean with the gearbox and others have mentioned its quieter too than the LR.

 

[robocam]

The LR kit is vastly different from the pre-2015 GNG kit it was originally based off of.

Actually many do choose less expensive cars, which is why Hyundai and Kia are so popular.

I admit that I experienced a tiny bit of initial frustration with the Cyclone kit when I first bought it, but it was easy to remedy, and I am having a blast with it now. I definitely do not regret buying a Cyclone. It really isn't that difficult to get the Cyclone running great. The only real issue with the Cyclone is its mounting bracket, which can be easily reinforced with a few inexpensive parts from your local hardware store.

I don't think the Cyclone is a "nasty chinese kit." First, is it made in Taiwan? Second, as Gman, Dingus, and countless others have proven, it can be very reliable.

I am referring to the bearings in this specific motor. Their failure is not common. Where is this thread about the Cyclone's motor bearings?

Tell us more about these bearings you work with. What kind of RPMs do your motors see? What devices do they go into?

You obliviously don't value your time much , i want to spend my time rideing the bike not fixing a cheap and nasty chinese kit !...

 

[Alex07]

Actually many do choose less expensive cars, which is why Hyundai and Kia are so popular.

So your the guy on the side of the road i will pass broken down in China Chery brand car blocking traffic with an overheating radiator as the factory decided to save 5 cents and use cheap hose clamps that falls off .....

I don't think the Cyclone is a "nasty chinese kit." First, is it made in Taiwan? Second, as Gman, Dingus, and countless others have proven, it can be very reliable.

Can be reliable and is reliable out of the box is a whole different story ! i want this to work and not me spend hours and months re-inventing the wheel to build it right as it should of been done from the start.

All cheap made in china motors have the same issue with cheap steel bearings, Knock yourself out do a search on here for bearing failures and you will get thread after thread, heres some: kingfish sums it up well initial design flaw of a capitalist system driven to low cost...

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=38315

"The motor will eventually get rusty inside and the bearings will fail first. Other stuff is pretty much fail proof

however the second pair used in my 2WD both suffered/failed from rust within a couple of weeks of each other. Once that occurs you are in for a complete R&R which includes rust treatment, plating, varnishing, venting, finally seal- and bearing replacement.

Postby Kingfish » Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:39 am

MadRhino wrote:
Yep, the only ways to kill a DD hub are water and heat. Well, they don't really kill it, but can make it more expansive to repair than buying a new one.

Except that getting a new one doesn't solve the inital design flaw: Mine wasn't even 6 months old before it crapped out rust-solid.

O' cruel is the Capitalistic world... KF

And not Hub here
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=11916&start=25


Their is dozens of threads on bearing failures on here, also dont think its just as as easy to just replace the bearings at failures, since the clearance can be very close to rotor/stator you sometimes get excess movement and hence damage and rubbing of the stator which means you sometimes have to junk the whole motor ! That's why at work this small extra cost of ceramic bearing is invaluable as in the long term the same motor can last a life time and overall your costs are a lot lower with less downtime as well.

Unless you like paying for new motors often as you work and have shares at Cyclone or Luna cycle ?? lol

 

[rjwilson18]

Hey guys I am new to the forum, i wanted to address the chinsy bearing issues on the motor before i do the install. Eclipse bike has "heavy Duty" external bearings, such as the 13 Tooth Cyclone Heavy Duty Motor Freewheel and the ACS Crossfire Freewheel. Shipping to the states is reasonable enough and i cant find those prices anywhere else. Thoughts?

http://eclipsebikes.com/crossfire-freewheel-p-1075.html
http://eclipsebikes.com/tooth-cyclone-heavy-duty-motor-freewheel-p-1095.html

 

[DingusMcGee]

Their is dozens of threads on bearing failures on here

Ceramic Bearings are 4-sale to anyone. Pull one steel bearing out, measure it and order ceramic. ??

Educate yourself:

http://road.cc/content/feature/175644-ceramic-bearings-pros-and-cons

The premium for ceramic bearings is high then, and their advantages, while looking promising in an ideal world, appear to stack up much less in the demanding environment that a bicycle is expected to perform and survive in.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Alex07,

I have both C-3000's and a LRSmB. Mr Lightning Rods at the time of my Sm Block purchase did not have much of any provision or useful advise as to how to mount his "plug and play' kit onto the approx 100mm Specialized PF 30 BB. The now 180 pages of crowd sourcing engineering? on his kits seems similar to what goes on in this thread. And Mr Lightning Rods does all he can to have that site look untarnished by the shortcomings in his designs as he will PM you telling you that he will not send such and such a part for his kit until you remove the contents that offend him.

MY first test of his kit was a very difficult hill climb. On the second try the gates belt snapped. I posted on his site that it was the "weak link" protection for drive train shock loading. Of course I got the PM from LR telling me to remove that text and he would then PayPal me an invoice for the Gates belt which he did not have in stock at the time. He practices damage control like the politicians do around election time. MY reply: frock YOU LIGHTNIING ROD and left the wording on there.

So, I suspect we know little about all the failures of that kit as failure owners are told to remove the blemish from "his" site or have the threat and holdings of no parts to you. And I can say I would never go Lightning Rod again. The kit is a bigger can of worms than the c-3000 will ever [see Foppel's Post on the LR kit] be once you start riding these rigs on difficult terrain. I now get my parts for the LR SmBlock from the elsewhere.

MY advise to you: Buy the LR SM Block and get schooled. We don't need you here until you learn of such things first hand. OKay? But we'll help you any time with the Cheap C-3000.

 

[LewTwo]

I like the Luna kit because it comes with black brackets. If you choose the ISIS crank arms, they are black as well. My brackets are raw aluminum, and I tried to paint them black, but the paint comes off once in a while ...

Have you considered DIY anodizing?

http://www.instructables.com/id/Anodizing-Metal-at-Home-The-LJS-method/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7jFN3l_mrKk

 

[Alex07]

The premium for ceramic bearings is high then, and their advantages, while looking promising in an ideal world, appear to stack up much less in the demanding environment that a bicycle is expected to perform and survive in

Hi Dingus thanks for the link, that article sums up pretty well that ceramic bearing do have a lot longer life and less drag. And that their is more efficiency gains the higher the rpm and load, and that only on bicycle parts that have low RPM the dollars per watt saved may not be worth the cost.

But you need to remember their terms of reference is for a push bike and not a ebike motor. So the efficiency benefit they give relates to a human input, since long term a normal human can overage only 200w , 10-15w saveing is actually quite a lot ! that's like 10% ! so you would surely notice that gain. But as mentioned in the article you get more gains the higher the RPM and load is... hence on a 3000w motor you could also probably expect more than 10% gain as its higher rpm and load, say its 15% of 3000w or 450w of free power going buy that article !

Also since we are talking about putting them on a motor and gearbox you need to factor the cost savings of consequential damages, i.e to the motor and or gearbox when the bearings fail vs cost avoided of getting a whole new motor and gearbox. Which they completely ignore in that article as the bearings are not connected to anything that expensive ! Ceramic bearings make a lot more sense if you want ultimate reliability in a motor and gearbox then they do to bike bottom bracket /head tube etc due to the high rpm and high load after all they are the highest RPM things on a bike, hence they would benefit the most.

Longevity of a well-built high-quality ceramic bearing, in many cases, can be up to 10 times longer than commonly used stock bearings

 

[Alex07]

Postby DingusMcGee » Tue Nov 01, 2016 3:01 am

Alex07,

I have both C-3000's and a LRSmB. Mr Lightning Rods at the time of my Sm Block purchase did not have much of any provision or useful advise as to how to mount his "plug and play' kit onto the approx 100mm Specialized PF 30 BB. The now 180 pages of crowd sourcing engineering? on his kits seems similar to what goes on in this thread. And Mr Lightning Rods does all he can to have that site look untarnished by the shortcomings in his designs as he will PM you telling you that he will not send such and such a part for his kit until you remove the contents that offend him.

MY first test of his kit was a very difficult hill climb. On the second try the gates belt snapped. I posted on his site that it was the "weak link" protection for drive train shock loading. Of course I got the PM from LR telling me to remove that text and he would then PayPal me an invoice for the Gates belt which he did not have in stock at the time. He practices damage control like the politicians do around election time. MY reply: frock YOU LIGHTNIING ROD and left the wording on there.

So, I suspect we know little about all the failures of that kit as failure owners are told to remove the blemish from "his" site or have the threat and holdings of no parts to you. And I can say I would never go Lightning Rod again. The kit is a bigger can of worms than the c-3000 will ever [see Foppel's Post on the LR kit] be once you start riding these rigs on difficult terrain. I now get my parts for the LR SmBlock from the elsewhere.

MY advise to you: Buy the LR SM Block and get schooled. We don't need you here until you learn of such things first hand. OKay? But we'll help you any time with the Cheap C-3000.

Thanks for the headsup Dingus i didn't know it was that bad ? i was only going by what i see on that thread so i will stay clear now.. i did notice john bozi was having endless problems on their and also some weird editing or lack of bad feedback as you say also, but also what do you expect when he is friends with the moderator spinning magnets- someone commented they are old friends from way back?? so no wounder we dont get a unbiassed view with all the faults on here? hmm now that's no surprise since all the modifications are crowd sourced IDEAS hence he doesn't actually durability test to see if these ideas work in real life ??? so the forum and people hard earned $$$ is the guinea pigs it seems..

 

[DingusMcGee]

Alex07,

vehicle alternators which are similar to mid drive motors in torque and tension and have a proven record of those with high quality ordinary bearing [Timken, NSK]used on them lasting many miles. We do not know? -- whether the bearings on the Cyclone motors are Taiwan, Chinese or some known to us quality brand. Do we? Certainly for the cost differential between Luna or Sick Cyclone and the cost of the ATF cyclone kit one could buy ceramic bearings and install them much cheaper than going ATF. I think of ceramic bearings as sort of high priced parts you could buy for your high dollar light weight build. We also know that navigational gyros of non ceramic bearings got us to the moon. And back. Ceramic bearings are by no means a necessity -- for bikes or ebikes.

But maintenance is a necessity for just about any home built ebike that is ridden off road. I am sure some of the complaining of Cyclone failures mentioned on this thread are due to lack of timely maintenance. And some of them may be mythical failures posted by LR's crew to sway potential Cyclone purchasers to go with the Lightening Rod kit? Welcome to the internet. And some posters may be arguing the joys of ceramic bearing to sway would be Cyclone buyers to switch to ATF?

Comparing: LR SM Bk to the C-3000.

Let us say these parts: [LR Sm Bk motor and LR BB hardware] = Luna [ Cyclone 3000 motor and equivalent BB hardware]

Differences: LR [ motor frame and speed reducer] NOT = Cyclone [motor frame and speed reducer]

The LR jackshaft reducer system needs frequent adjustment and its jackshaft bearings get corroded from just giving the bike a rinse off. And the belts do break quite easily. The Cyclone has a quite maintenance free internal planetary gear reduction.

The LR kit comes with an "L" shaped frame which can be fastened to the down tube to get it stiffer with respect to the BB. The Cyclone kit needs stiffening to work at all, but it can easily made just as stiff as than the OEM LR kit fastened to the down tube.

Neither of these kits will qualify as maintenance free when put on an e-dirt-bike. And as of yet not even ATF has perfected the BB to rear wheel drive train. You may need a motor cycle frame with a ceramic Cromotor and gears? Poster Recompense would know.

 

[DingusMcGee]

saveing is actually quite a lot ! that's like 10% !

The 10% reduction you mention is for bearing friction and that is only a small part of the total loss of energy in these systems. So your argument is lacking any accountability as for where the rest of the energy losses arise.

Hence the statement

10-15w saveing is actually quite a lot

from ceramic bearings is overstated and erroneous.


And if I were on a mission to save wasting energy for the Earth I would not be recreating with an electric bike.

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo asked,

I want to know what you think about the feel of the slack seat angle and head angle. It's also adjustable to a small degree. The bottom bracket is slightly higher than the one on the Demo 8, so I'm curious about its handling. What fork are you pairing it with? I'm also curious about where you're going to put the battery.

The seat tube projection which is slightly ahead of the BB will be good for keeping the front end down while hill climbing. I am working on banana seats for some of my bikes as you can slide forward and backward quite easily -- like on a dirt bike. As I said on another thread ride it like a motorcycle sort of poised just above the seat and forward.

Forks: Fox Racing Shox Talas RLC Fork 80-130 26" 1-1/8", 9mm QR. Move travel would yield a longer wheelbase and less nimbleness.

battery: For now I am thinking I will use my 2 72v 11ah rectangular batteries strapped on the side or one of them on the top tube. After I get the wheel, fork and motor in place I will be able to plot the front wheel travel during suspension loading and know the clearance [battery space] I will have below the down tube. Also I could build a 3 cell wide battery pack in the triangle -- like a gas tank. Maybe the 4000mah cell will be perfected soon?

Fixed dimensions?: The distance between the BB and the rear axle is 17" which is about as close it can be made on any bike. The distance from the BB to the bottom of the steering tube is 1" longer than on my nimble bikes -- not to mention the relaxed head angle. The Fox shock has a very slight offset to the front built into it and so turning the fork right or left alters the CG an imperceptible amount. The amount CG rise/dropping is a measure of how easily you can initiate a turn. Will it work rotated 180 degrees and installed to lessen the wheel base length and alter the head angle? Installing the fork with that rotation will take up valuable battery space.

At any rate the bike will likely be more nimble than those 50+ some inch wheelbase of those "enduro like builds" for sale and in kits. Big travel is an expensive trade off to nimbleness.

 

[Alex07]

saveing is actually quite a lot ! that's like 10% !


The 10% reduction you mention is for bearing friction and that is only a small part of the total loss of energy in these systems. So your argument is lacking any accountability as for where the rest of the energy losses arise.

Hence the statement
10-15w saveing is actually quite a lot
from ceramic bearings is overstated and erroneous.

You can see for yourself direct on the ceramic speed website:
http://www.ceramicspeed.com/sport/why-ceramicspeed/save-watts/

Save 10-16 watts with a complete CeramicSpeed upgrade

You may think thats not much but but to give you perspective :

http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Power_peripherals/Bicycle_Powered_Generator
" A human being pedaling at a comfortable cadence can produce more than ... A trained cyclist can put out as many as 200W for a sustained period of time "

So that's like 8-10% Anyway this is less relevant as we are talking about using them on a motor and gearbox and in this siutation you would get MORE then 8-10% as their is more load and RPM. At work like i mentioned this is the side benefit, the long life and reliability is the main cost saving so this extra efficiency is a bonus on an ebike not the main driver, who has enough range with todays batteries anyway ??

 

[DingusMcGee]

Save 10-16 watts with a complete CeramicSpeed upgrade

That site has a totally bogus ad to sell junk and it is without references -- and as I said before, "Welcome to the internet."

If those 2 small bearings on each end of an ebike motor dissipate 20 watts they would be quite hot soon.

That a ceramic ball bearing would have 10% less rolling resistance over chrome/nickel steel ball bearing's rolling resistance is barely admissible and to say that a complete bearing unit made from ceramic material outperforms one of steel by 10% is an almost outlandish extrapolation from the first premise. And since the bearing's energy losses are not the only energy sink in an electric motor, the overall savings will be less percentage than what the bearings save and in fact for any electric motor there are far more other energy losses than just the bearings energy losses. So, no, you cannot get a 10% overall savings when only one component changed saves 10% energy over the previous components energy dissipation. Learn some math; your example has faulty accounting.

This article will deflate what the ceramicspeed site has said:

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=19501

The ceramic bearings hiding in this bottom bracket offer huge performance gains – reducing rolling resistance by up to 4 percent.

from: http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/dirty-secrets-pt-3/

So you say 10% and more realistically this mechanic says 4%.

maybe 4 watts? welcome to the internet where you can say anything and some will believe it.

Simply put: a lot of these web page writers lack physics skills and math skills -- so they just say shit that because of their lack of reasoning skills whatever comes to their mind first sounds good to them -- sort of unchecked intuition.

 

[spinningmagnets]

It's very easy to test the "no load" watts with a stock set of bearings, and then swap-in the ceramics to test again. The ceramic bearings are not hugely expensive, so...are they "better"?... probably yes. And yet in spite of how "easy" the test would be, I see no video posted. 10%? maybe yes, maybe less...I look forward to a video. If someone wants to buy a Cyclone kit, send me the unit and I will buy the ceramic bearings, install, and post the results, then mail the unit to whoever bought it.

There are turn-key ebikes out there (of various levels of performance and quality). Then there are basic kits, and there are "upgraded" kits. I want to live in a world where all customers have all of these options. I could have easily bought a much cheaper bicycle and upgraded the parts that I wanted to, but...I recently paid $700 for a stretch cruiser that had the exact features I wanted. Was I stupid? Half the readers will say I didn't spend enough, because a $700 bike is crap, and the other half will say I spent too much, just in order to save a couple Saturdays worth of upgrading a cheaper bike.

I'm not going to make fun of someone who buys the basic Cyclone 3000 kit and then upgrades it, and I'm not going to make fun of the guy who buys the upgraded AFT 3000 for a higher price. I want both of them to meet at the park for a barbecue and have some fun with their families and their ebikes.

 

[jk1]

It's very easy to test the "no load" watts with a stock set of bearings, and then swap-in the ceramics to test again. The ceramic bearings are not hugely expensive, so...are they "better"?... probably yes. And yet in spite of how "easy" the test would be, I see no video posted. 10%? maybe yes, maybe less...I look forward to a video. If someone wants to buy a Cyclone kit, send me the unit and I will buy the ceramic bearings, install, and post the results, then mail the unit to whoever bought it.

Ceramic bearings are a wise move for an electric motor as its the only wearing part, Teslas EV's are changing to them now to increase reliability.
http://insideevs.com/tesla-model-s-makes-use-skf-ceramic-motor-bearings-video/

https://forums.tesla.com/en_DK/forum/forums/how-long-will-our-electric-motors-last

The efficiency gain is an added benefit but not the main reason you would think- i guess this depends on what your ultimate goal is.. if its ultimate efficiency then yes it would be. It would be quite difficult to measure on a full throttle no load test, as the losses are smaller here than they are at full load. The only way to find a small increase is to measure it over a long period of time on a test track , but then you have other issues like wind variance...

it really would need to be tested under load in a controlled environment as temperate can effect motor and gearbox efficiency as well to find a small change.

 

[DingusMcGee]

SpiningMags,

I just ordered a kit from SBP but a no load case doesn't tell us much about performance while in use. These kinds of extrapolations [from bench test to road test] make the assumption everything is linear.

I think we do not have a problem with anyone that buys an ATF kit. The purchase is his money spent. We do have a problem when someone claims what we have is junk because it lacks a detail that one gets when they buy ATF. Namely ceramic bearings.

The same stupid arguments I hear about ceramic bearings and what we ought to do with them could be said about lithium batteries. The argument could be framed like this: Lithium batteries have the highest energy density of all batteries therefore we should all switch to lithium batteries to save the energy of hauling the extra weight of traditional batteries around. So let's all switch to graphine batteries [as they have a higher energy density than the cells Musk uses] like Fisker, the electric car builder says he will use them.

The old timers around here have a saying: Don't fix it unless it is broken.

I have repaired several alternators that had bearing failures of steel bearings after 100,000 miles. Not a difficult task. I suspect that the same ease of changing bearings holds for the C-3000 motor. I will decide upon my C-3000's bearing failure which bearing I want to use for replacement. And by then there will be more reliable data on what one can expect from the investment of converting to ceramic.


Now for those of you that do not want to touch any repair project, I could suggest take your new motor to an alternator repair shop and tell them to install ceramic bearings. You now have invested $400 kit + 2 x $70 bearings + $100 for the fix = $640 which is far less than the $2000 some? for the AFT kit.

But BLow you Money however you want


And by the time I get my 100,000 miles on the steel bearings in the C-3000 there is likely to be some better motor technology in addition to ceramic bearings. So I may let trickle down effects give that old motor to you. I will buy at that time what looks like the best deal for me.

For those that desire a no time invested installation-build why bother with this DIY site for the Luna or SBP version of the C-3000? You are wasting time -- the very item you claim you want to save.


Here is how I would make the ceramic test:

Build 2 identical ebikes using the C-3000 and it components [with the same frame fix]. Disassemble one of the motors to add the ceramic bearings. Install CA's on both of them for measurements of wattage used when under power on the pavement.

There are many rides and tests we could conjure up but we would find the 'wheels on pavement" power used difference. That is, "An overall energy performance benefit".


Elon Musk will jump on anything to get publicity and pass the cost to the consumer -- and yet try to sell products that most of us think are far too expensive. Let's see what Toyota does.

But I will concede that the Luna C-3000 likely has steel bearings that are inferior to the steel bearings that are installed in a Toyota alternator.

I did have the pleasure of meeting someone that owned a $14,000 OmiBike -- Ken ?? . We did have a great exchange. As I had my ebike at the party I let him try it. He was quite impressed with the performance. He did not have his bike at the party. I suspect the Barbeque you propose would go equally smoothly if I met an ATF owner. Ken did understand economics, physics and math and did have a very high paying job.

 

[MarkLeeds]

Hi Guys,

I've got a 2014 Specialized enduro (just bought) and was thinking of getting one of these motors. The dimensions on the internet says the motor has a diameter of 135mm - please could someone confirm if this is correct or not.

Phife has 2014 Specialized Stumpjumper and the motor fits nicely into the frame, the frame is similar to an enduro. At 135mm it won't fit into an enduro frame.

Many thanks

Mark

 

[juanfeli]

If Phife did it why you think that you couldn't?

135 must be the dropouts. This kit comes with a large isis bottom bracket for different bottom bracket shells sizes so the Cranks don't hit the motor. But the bottom bracket shell must be BSA instead of press fit or other. If yours is different you would need an adapter to BSA.

Hi Guys,

I've got a 2014 Specialized enduro (just bought) and was thinking of getting one of these motors. The dimensions on the internet says the motor has a diameter of 135mm - please could someone confirm if this is correct or not.

Phife has 2014 Specialized Stumpjumper and the motor fits nicely into the frame, the frame is similar to an enduro. At 135mm it won't fit into an enduro frame.

Many thanks

Mark

 

[MarkLeeds]

If Phife did it why you think that you couldn't?

135 must be the dropouts. This kit comes with a large isis bottom bracket for different bottom bracket shells sizes so the Cranks don't hit the motor. But the bottom bracket shell must be BSA instead of press fit or other. If yours is different you would need an adapter to BSA.

Hi Guys,

I've got a 2014 Specialized enduro (just bought) and was thinking of getting one of these motors. The dimensions on the internet says the motor has a diameter of 135mm - please could someone confirm if this is correct or not.

Phife has 2014 Specialized Stumpjumper and the motor fits nicely into the frame, the frame is similar to an enduro. At 135mm it won't fit into an enduro frame.

Many thanks

Mark

The enduro is a slightly different model so that it probably the reason.

 

[juanfeli]

Are these the bikes that you are referring to?
It is your question if the motor fit in the frame?

 

[MarkLeeds]

Are these the bikes that you are referring to?
It is your question if the motor fit in the frame?

Exactly the bikes, they don't look too different. I have the enduro model in the garage and a cyclone (if its 13.5 cm in diameter) will only just fit in the frame triangle. Literally 3mm to spare.

Looking more closely at the pictures(thanks for posting) it looks like the stump jumper has a more pronounced "bulge" near the bottom bracket which would explain the difference. I think ill be able to save a few more mm by filing off some fins on the motor in strategic places. Should have been a bit more careful before buying the bike. I'll post some picture when its finished.

 

[dirkdiggler]

Switched out the inner sprocket to 44 tooth. Drives much better than the 36 I had. No longer does the chain catch on the sprocket. The sprocket that came with the kit is junk - the teeth were hamburger. Now that there isn't any more reduction, I've kept it in the same gear for most rides. Mine as well have a single speed direct from the motor, unless you like to fake pedal or need some backup power. I won't be able to pedal the bike well with the front sprocket that large anyhow! Only for downhill.
Also noticed the two motor mount screws were bent. Figured I'd change those out and get the chain line straight again. It would be smart of Sick bike parts or Luna to build up a better mount. That is the only issues so far with this kit I have had, but It really is an easy fix. They need larger size bolts and larger size aluminum plates. Would also help to have the aluminum parts that the motor mount screws go through be one piece with an additional section that fits between the mounts and is bolted. Like the LA ebike mounts. Even better would be to have the motor case made with better support for the brackets. I'm sure that the motor was not designed to be put on a bike in the first place. Probably could just cut a section out to add space for another bracket towards the end of the motor.
Still just a beast of a kit. Puts my bbs02 to shame. 3kw is awesome in a mid drive! So much fun to ride single track with it.