new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[DingusMcGee]

thanks for Robo,

Actually, you decrease the resistance of the shunt to increase the amperage. You can do this by adding solder, or soldering on a large staple. Then you can find out your amperage with a Cycle Analyst or a cheap power meter like this one.

I had by feedback backwards on shunt modification. I changed my wording above to reflect your method.

 

[Pablo]

Wasting money here is not too painful because the motor is "only" $100 including shipping from Paco at Cyclone.

Wait - which motor are we talking about?

 

[robocam]

The one for the Cyclone 3000.

 

[Pablo]

The one for the Cyclone 3000.

$100 shipped to the USA? It's $219 on his site, before shipping.

 

[robocam]

Is that with the gearbox?

Maybe it was a special price, but when I told him I damaged my Luna Cyclone by getting it wet, he offered to send me a new motor for $100 shipped to the US or free hall sensors (plus shipping). I took the hall sensors, which did the trick. That made me really happy about their customer service.

I've also received great customer service from SBP as well =)

 

[Pablo]

Is that with the gear box?

Maybe it was a special price, but when I told him I damaged my Luna Cyclone by getting it wet, he offered to send me a new motor for $100 shipped to the US or free hall sensors (plus shipping). I took the hall sensors, which did the trick. That made me really happy about their customer service.

I've also received great customer service from SBP as well =)

Ah - makes sense completely. Warranty and yes the one is with gearbox. Thanks!

 

[DingusMcGee]

Words from the Cyclone-Taiwan website:

24-72V geared motor without controller waterproof

Waterproof? Hardley. It is barely water-resistant as I am somewhat sure water gets into the motor case from rinsing the dirt and mud off it from hose water running through a nozzle.

Robo, I have thought of drilling and threading 2 holes [one high and one low] in the motor's left side cover and adding threaded plugs to seal them. It seems there would be better circulation to get vapor removed than merely one drain hole. But then again the cover plate removes quite easily. And perhaps more necessity is that the phase and sensor cord entry must be sealed if you ride across deep streams. And of course water can get through the decal on the side. Any thoughts?

Pablo, I see Cyclone-Taiwan sells 2 different C-3000 motors. They have one for $219 that is rated at 1800 - 3000 watts and the other one for $259 is rated 1920 - 3000 watts. Besides the price and wattage rating difference do you know how in material and workmanship they differ?

 

[minimum]

Besides the price and wattage rating difference do you know how in material and workmanship they differ?

1920W version is 34mm longer. Probably will interfere with cranks when installed next to BB.
http://www.cyclone-tw.com/dc24.htm

 

[robocam]

Yeah, I wouldn't even call it water-resistant because mine filled up with water after I rinsed it off (not using a power washer). I decided to drill 2 holes (don't do this unless you open the covers to see where the winding is so that you don't damage it - you could do it blind if you can keep the drill bit from going deeper than about 1/4") on the bottom because there are 2 low points because the winding is in the middle. After I wash it, I blow compressed air from my compressor through a threaded hole on top. This has worked fine for me. I cover the top hole with a screw, and I don't ride through water deep enough to submerge the motor, so I leave the bottom holes open.

If I ever encounter a water deep enough to submerge the motor, I may try going through it just to see what will happen, and if the water interferes with the operation of the motor, I'll silicone the wire entry point and cover the drain holes. I don't even know why the hall sensors were damaged by the water. I thought they were solid state. After I washed my bike, I didn't use it. It just sat. Anyway, here's what I did to drain my motor.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=69867&p=1223294&hilit=waterproof#p1223294

How would water get through the decal? I guess you could glue a piece of metal there if that were ever a problem.

...Waterproof? Hardley. It is barely water-resistant as I am somewhat sure water gets into the motor case from rinsing the dirt and mud off it from hose water running through a nozzle.

Robo, I have thought of drilling and threading 2 holes [one high and one low] in the motor's left side cover and adding threaded plugs to seal them. It seems there would be better circulation to get vapor removed than merely one drain hole. But then again the cover plate removes quite easily. And perhaps more necessity is that the phase and sensor cord entry must be sealed if you ride across deep streams. And of course water can get through the decal on the side. Any thoughts?...

 

[Pablo]

Paco can be quite......optimistic on such things as "waterproof". We like to think we are not selling Cadillacs......and try to have low prices, sticker shock is for batteries.

 

[robocam]

Do you guys have the ability to machine stuff? Have you thought about making parts for the Cyclone such as better mounting brackets?

Paco can be quite......optimistic on such things as "waterproof". We like to think we are not selling Cadillacs......and try to have low prices, sticker shock is for batteries.

 

[Pablo]

Do you guys have the ability to machine stuff? Have you thought about making parts for the Cyclone such as better mounting brackets?

Paco can be quite......optimistic on such things as "waterproof". We like to think we are not selling Cadillacs......and try to have low prices, sticker shock is for batteries.

We can and we can have parts made in volume. We can't seem to come up with a viable design that will work on most all bikes and get that executed. I guess it just hasn't been a priority. Plus, just when we get going, Paco changes something. AND the volume isn't there yet with gasoline relatively inexpensive.

 

[robocam]

All you need is that little end piece to hold the end of the motor (similar to Lightningrod's design), and you can offer different lengths of spacers and bolts. People would pay $50 for that.

Here's Lightningrod's design. You could still use the stock brackets, but add the piece at the end.

But yeah, I don't know how I feel about the new mount. It looks like it would do a better job, but I've been hearing about fitment issues with it. Do you still stock the old bracket? I may just order one as a backup.

http://sickbikeparts.com/electric-large-motor-bottom-bracket-mount-kit/

And I guess if the volume isn't there, I guess it wouldn't make economical sense to produce it.

We can and we can have parts made in volume. We can't seem to come up with a viable design that will work on most all bikes and get that executed. I guess it just hasn't been a priority. Plus, just when we get going, Paco changes something. AND the volume isn't there yet with gasoline relatively inexpensive.

 

[Pablo]

Something like that is fairly easy to do. We just need to apply KISS.

Yes we stock the brackets, and of course can get anything Cyclone has. Thanks!!

 

[pchen92]

Hi guys,

I'm installing the cyclone kit but I want to use my Magura throttle. I don't have the connector which comes with the stock throttle (key+voltage indicator).
Where am I suppose to connect this wire ? On the other side it seems to go to the hall positive.



Thanks,

Paul

 

[robocam]

I believe that connector goes to the switch on the throttle. Close the circuit to turn the controller on. The bullet connector goes to battery power if I remember correctly. I can verify later when I have access to my computer, or maybe someone else knows for sure (but I'm fairly confident).

 

[Pablo]

Yes the bullet connector to +voltage (battery power). Sorry I can't help with the throttle.

 

[DingusMcGee]

tikivic

your link to the chain made of half links:

http://kmcchain.us/chain/hl710-silver/

I have known of two versions of the half link chains but until your post I though any of them looked too beefy. They obviously do have more mass than lightest of 10 speed chains. Since the natural frequency of vibrating object is some function of the square root of stiffness divided by mass I suspect they produce a lower pitch sound than a light chain.

Most of my chain failures have been side plate separation so I did a visual comparison of tooth loading against the narrow end of the half link chain you show and tooth loading against a regular chain. The half link chain that you show in the picture of your chainrings and chain is one version of how half link chains are made. It seems that the half link chains with a fold of metal over the top [caps] would have stiffer outer sides plates than the half link chain made without the fold of metal over the top. If this extra stiffness comes into play enough then the half link chains with the fold of metal over the top would be less likely to get side plate separation than those without the fold over the top.

The other important thing to note in your post is that the internet link above which is the same as the internet link you suggest for half link chains goes to a chain that is not the same type of half link chain shown in your post on the chainring and motor ring. The chain that your internet link leads to does not have the caps over the leading end of the side plates.

Here is an eBay link with a half link chain that has the caps over the leading end of the side plates:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122435343146?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

They do cost a little more but I suspect you'll get less side plate separation with the chains that have links with the cap over the leading end.

Is there a suggested chain direction for the half link chains?

 

[DingusMcGee]

Robo,

I now have added two holes to my motors. They are both on the left side. One is a drain hole at the bottom of the motor cylinder and other up high on the cap is for compressed air or ventilation on dry day runs. They have 4mm threaded bolts sealing them when I go into water. And the phase wire input zone is sealed with polyurethane which is much stronger and more tenacious than any of the silly cones.

 

[tikivic]

tikivic

your link to the chain made of half links:

http://kmcchain.us/chain/hl710-silver/

I have known of two versions of the half link chains but until your post I though any of them looked too beefy. They obviously do have more mass than lightest of 10 speed chains. Since the natural frequency of vibrating object is some function of the square root of stiffness divided by mass I suspect they produce a lower pitch sound than a light chain.

Most of my chain failures have been side plate separation so I did a visual comparison of tooth loading against the narrow end of the half link chain you show and tooth loading against a regular chain. The half link chain that you show in the picture of your chainrings and chain is one version of how half link chains are made. It seems that the half link chains with a fold of metal over the top [caps] would have stiffer outer sides plates than the half link chain made without the fold of metal over the top. If this extra stiffness comes into play enough then the half link chains with the fold of metal over the top would be less likely to get side plate separation than those without the fold over the top.

The other important thing to note in your post is that the internet link above which is the same as the internet link you suggest for half link chains goes to a chain that is not the same type of half link chain shown in your post on the chainring and motor ring. The chain that your internet link leads to does not have the caps over the leading end of the side plates.

Here is an eBay link with a half link chain that has the caps over the leading end of the side plates:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/122435343146?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

They do cost a little more but I suspect you'll get less side plate separation with the chains that have links with the cap over the leading end.

Is there a suggested chain direction for the half link chains?

Dingus, actually that link was Robocam's. There is no suggested direction. One thing to keep in mind with the "closed top" chain is it doesn't flex backwards at all. It's meant for a fixie/single speed with no tensioner since it can't wrap around. Link to mine (from Amazon): https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0060LU99U/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Oh and it's a real pain to break (finally had to use my Pro-Motion motorcycle chain breaker).

 

[DingusMcGee]

tikivic,

thanks for correcting me on the poster of that link.

You have noted the chains pins on this half link caped chain are tighter than other bike chains when you had to use a motorcycle chain breaker to break the chain. This tightness may actually be a good feature for keeping the side plates attached longer. But that tightness could just be different manufacturers hole tolerances for the pins? But here I see both the chain you posted and the one I posted are KMC chains but of different models.

There is no Specified Direction. OK. The chain is likely to work in either direction. But is going one way any better than the other? Hmm? We can see that in either direction a tooth hits the same size roller. It looks like in one direction an approaching tooth tip would initially start in a big link space and then end up in the smaller space as it became fully engaged and pushing on the roller. With this direction set up [caps following?] the chain would have less lateral play than if the final teeth insertion were pushed into the bigger end. I am of the impression that less lateral play is the better choice for clean [no mud and small rocks] one speed set ups.

Robo is king of mud riding among us but he has not spoken on this aspect. I will speculate this much: It looks like the capped chains would tend to trap some mud and small rocks compared to open chains. The mud would likely get pressed out from under the caps but small rocks would either get crushed and then that material pressed out or they would stay intact trapped in the cap and would keep a tooth from seating fully and thus tightening the chain a bit. Small rocks trapped in several to many caps would make for a very tight chain. If the caps are following then as a tooth became fully inserted it could push small rocks out the top of the chain. For sand riding it seems caps backwards would be better.

On a closer picture look of capped chains it looks like they are fully enclosed over the top and there would be no easy path for small rocks to get pushed out.

Does anyone have some experience with mud and sand riding using a capped half link chain?

 

[tikivic]

Great question on the chain direction (I hadn't even considered it). Next time I have mine off I'll turn it around just to see if it behaves/sounds any different. Also, I don't use lube on my chains, I wax dip them - so this may help a bit as far as accumulated debris. But you are correct, there would be no path out the top for debris. I think this chain I'm using right now is really intended for BMX freestyle (no dirt). I have a couple other versions of KMC half link chains so I may try different ones. BTW these chains are quite thick, and initially I was using one for the drive from crankset to rear sprocket, but I had to machine the Rohloff chain tensioner cage down because the chain actually wouldn't fit through it!

 

[robocam]

Thanks D, but I'm no mud king. I just rode in some mud and discovered that I don't enjoy it because it gets stuck in everything. I like how you're thinking through how mud and rocks might affect the chain, and those are very good points, so a chain like that might get clogged if you ride off-road often.

You're having problems with the motor chain wearing out too quickly? What chain are you using on your motor now? Do you have more problems with that chain than your bike chain? I've been using a KMC K710SL, and it has served me well, but I don't run as much power as you do. It is much thicker than a multi-speed chain.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CNC2VY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

That chain is also very difficult to break. I had to buy a much tougher chain breaker to break it. This thing is huge.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B001CNC2VY/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

tikivic,

thanks for correcting me on the poster of that link.

You have noted the chains pins on this half link caped chain are tighter than other bike chains when you had to use a motorcycle chain breaker to break the chain. This tightness may actually be a good feature for keeping the side plates attached longer. But that tightness could just be different manufacturers hole tolerances for the pins? But here I see both the chain you posted and the one I posted are KMC chains but of different models.

There is no Specified Direction. OK. The chain is likely to work in either direction. But is going one way any better than the other? Hmm? We can see that in either direction a tooth hits the same size roller. It looks like in one direction an approaching tooth tip would initially start in a big link space and then end up in the smaller space as it became fully engaged and pushing on the roller. With this direction set up [caps following?] the chain would have less lateral play than if the final teeth insertion were pushed into the bigger end. I am of the impression that less lateral play is the better choice for clean [no mud and small rocks] one speed set ups.

Robo is king of mud riding among us but he has not spoken on this aspect. I will speculate this much: It looks like the capped chains would tend to trap some mud and small rocks compared to open chains. The mud would likely get pressed out from under the caps but small rocks would either get crushed and then that material pressed out or they would stay intact trapped in the cap and would keep a tooth from seating fully and thus tightening the chain a bit. Small rocks trapped in several to many caps would make for a very tight chain. If the caps are following then as a tooth became fully inserted it could push small rocks out the top of the chain. For sand riding it seems caps backwards would be better.

On a closer picture look of capped chains it looks like they are fully enclosed over the top and there would be no easy path for small rocks to get pushed out.

Does anyone have some experience with mud and sand riding using a capped half link chain?

 

[DingusMcGee]

Hi Robo,

yesterday at the start of the ride I was using the OEM KMC Z chain that SBP included with the motor purchase about the end of Jan. I was riding over some deadfall limb debris and a piece of it likely got caught in the motor chain leading to that chain pulling apart. I had just got the KMC HL710 uncapped half link chain and took it along instead of the KMC 410H which is very heavy looking. For chain direction with the HL710 I put the narrow end leading [in the direction of chain travel].

My motor chains seldom last so long as to say they are likely worn out except on the hardtail 41" wheelbase bike some have worn out. Most of the motor chains fail by side plate separation and often some traumatic intrusion of a tree limb or rock bouncing into that zone.

As for the bike chain's modes of failure, they also never get to wear out but lately the failures have been the hard snow drifts of Spring pushing the bottom run of the chain off course leading to some catastrophic failure. I get Shimano CN HG-53 9 speed for the bike chain for $17 on eBay. The touted long wearing Wipperman chain at $51 whose strength is likely very little more than the Shimano does not seem economically worth it when my bike chains never last long enough to wear out.

see this link for some chain strength tests:

http://www.cantitoeroad.com/assets/images/products/docs/connex_by_wippermann/Connex_Breaking_Load_Test_Results.pdf

I just ordered the KMC K710SL and will give your choice a try.

I also ordered a capped half link chain and am thinking of making a cover plate situated above the top of the bottom run of the motor chain to keep debris out as I suspect its design has superior side plate strength against plate separation. I noted yesterday that the HL 710 half link chain does not yield a tight enough chain fit to not use the chain tensioner. I am running an 18 T? White Industry motor freewheel on that bike and it is just a half pin diameter short of fitting for a snug fit and adding one half link necessitates the chain tensioner. So the capped chain will not work if I cannot get the snug fit as it will not work without the chain tensioner. Switching 16 T and 18T may get the desired fit?

Most of the time when a chain separates I discard it and start with a new chain.

 

[tikivic]

What if someone (me???) designed a two piece adjustable bracket that allowed the motor to slide and adjust chain tension without the need for a tensioner?