new ebike build what do you think?

A basic ebike battery using lipo packs can be made as easily as connecting 2 or more packs together like pictured below. Just like the way you connect your SLA batteries. Add another group of the same packs to double capacity and so on.
12s1p.jpg
E-S member jkbrigman has a thread with good pictures where he assembled a basic battery from several packs to try lipo. If you read his thread before and after the post about his test battery below he also writes about charging.

jkbrigman: 18S Series Harness
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=36097&p=540976#p540966

E-S member Warren Beauchamp has an excellent tutorial below, with good pictures and diagrams, about using lipo.

Warren Beauchamp's RC E-Bike Drivetrain tutorial
http://recumbents.com/wisil/e-bent/rc_drive/tutorial.htm
 
Good places to start.
http://www.rchelicopterfun.com/rc-lipo-batteries.html
http://scriptasylum.com/rc_speed/lipo.html
 
One of the reasons there is no place here with a tutorial of the one way to do it, is that there are about 1000 ways to do it that all work well for somebody.

In general, the easiest way to start out is with a set of four 6s 5000mha packs. Parallel connect them into two pairs of 6s 10 ah packs, then series connect those two sections. The result is 12s, 44v 10 ah. Not quite 48v, but perkier than 36v.

If you have a 6s or 8s RC charger, you only have to split the pack back into 6s sections to charge. One plug to disconnect, and not that big a pita.

What voltage to charge to, what to charge with, what voltage to stop at, how to monitor it on the road, whether or not to use a bms, there we argue our opinions, well, endlessly.

Bear in mind, store and charge these things in a place you'd build a fire.
 
There are two main approaches. To bms or not to bms. If you research on RC (toy) forums, you will find the picture above. You can string them together on the bike, then take them off again and rearrange them to charge on an rc bench charger of some sort. Then re-arrange them again for the bike. The important thing to be aware of is that the wires from the packs won't simply fit, you have to use conversion boards. It does not seem hard perhaps, but it's this rearranging of the pack that causes nearly all the fires.

Just to outline the above, you have batteries on the bike, a charger at home, and also a psu at home. 3 Packages.

Packs built for commercial purposes are different. They can be destined for ev's or backup or whatever, but they won't be done like toys. Instead they leave the batteries and the charger on the bike, and have one box at home. Still 3 boxes, but distributed differently.

It seems like the same thing, because it is. However to disconnect the batteries from the charger is a lot of dangerous work each time. Yet to disconnect the charger from the next box is a simple 2 pin cord.

You could say the choice is simply where to separate your wiring. At the 2 pin plug between the wall box and charger, or the other 10 or so plug between charger and batteries. It shouldn't take much thought.


The bms approach means leaving a bit more on the bike. Mine weighs an ounce. It is not really a weight issue. While sat there is does a whole host of other protection duties. Some of which might save you from destroying your expensive batteries, or lighting up the wiring with a short circuit. Most people like the ease of charging their bike with as much fuss as charging their phone. There are many benefits from leaving a circuit board on the bike, and the cost? well it is actually cheaper, because it is the mass market way of doing things.


Dogman is describing this: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=56886 <<< Click

edit: Remember, Non of the fire threads are from bms users. What is and isn't safe is heavily stacked. That is why no commercial packs come without bms. You can do it differently if you like, but it puts you squarely in the 'at risk' group. All forums have lot of pics showing why you shouldn't stray to toy chargers but still lot of people do. We see many fires each year from this group. Sheds, garages, homes.

I can't state the facts much more clearly
 
IMO, most RC pack fires happen because of physical damage. It happens so easy to unprotected pouch cells. AFTER the damage, that's when the cells misbehave enough to get seriously over discharged, then charged again. A bms should protect against that overdischarge of a ruined cell. So I'm not anti bms even though I run my lico naked.

But you do have some fires that occur when connecting up. The one very large fire I've seen was caused by miss connecting packs on assembly. Connect + to - of the same pack, and zappo! Fortunately for me, when I have made that mistake, a foil tab vaporized so fast nothing bad happened except an unusable cell with no tabs.

Lots of fires happen to any chemistry of battery, if you get a short circuit, and the sparks can reach flammable stuff, including wire insulation. My 1965 pickup burned up that way. Didn't make me fear all cars though. Did make me look at wires close to the exhaust pipe of all my cars though.
 
ive been here 7 years, and only LiMn Makita or Bosch tool pack Konions meet my requirements.
they stay in balance so no balance charger needed.(after initial balance)
they, each and every cell, have a thermal fuse, so no reported fires, as the fuse pops. so no bms needed.
they last, report of 1500 cycles with used cells!
and they are low cost used- see Doctorbass in for sale used. much detail, pages and pages
 
Good point. Ask yourself why you want to use lico. I have my reasons, but I know going in that I have to watch my ass using this stuff.

When I was running nothing but 20 amps controllers, lifepo4 worked fine for me. Lowest cost per mile of any battery I've tried.
 
for me my ebike is all about cruising around looking cool i dont need it i just want it. i love pedaling around but at times id like to be able to have the option to do 25-30 mph without pedaling for aleast 15 miles of range the furthest ride ive done pedaling is 12 miles round trip to the mall about 6 miles from my house this is as far as i would ever take my ebike. so if i could build a bike with a range higher than that i would never use all that range most of my trips would be 5 miles max and i would want to do that at 20 to 25 miles an hour. my needs can be met by sla batteries but im all for learning a new technology but spending 300 dollars just to start out and learn about it is kind of holding me back from making the switch to lipo or lifepo4 batteries like everybody else im doing the ebike thing on a limited budget haha
 
would an ebike kit be able to safely operate with 50 ah at 48 volt with lead acid? i know the pack would weigh almost 120 pounds but just in theory would it work and not blow up? is there a limit to how much amp hour you can have before its to much for the motor controller or motor itself?
 
My bicycle runs 50Ah at 116v.

What happens is you have a ton of energy to use. It's pretty nice.
 
your bicycle would probably collapse under the weight of all that lead.
 
friendly1uk said:
There are two main approaches. To bms or not to bms. If you research on RC (toy) forums, you will find the picture above. You can string them together on the bike, then take them off again and rearrange them to charge on an rc bench charger of some sort. Then re-arrange them again for the bike. The important thing to be aware of is that the wires from the packs won't simply fit, you have to use conversion boards. It does not seem hard perhaps, but it's this rearranging of the pack that causes nearly all the fires.
Click to expand...
Let's put BS to rest. I've been using rc lipo for 3 years. I've never had to take a pack apart to balance charge it. Never. And I run a 10ah 24s2p pack. Takes about 10 seconds to take it off the bike. If I wanted to keep my charger in the garage, I wouldn't even have to remove the pack, but I take inside where I can keep an eye on it while charging. Never leave any battery pack charging where you can't get to it, or in a spot where a fire might cause damge. Both the batteries OR ANY charger may catch fire.

friendly1uk said:
Packs built for commercial purposes are different. They can be destined for ev's or backup or whatever, but they won't be done like toys. Instead they leave the batteries and the charger on the bike, and have one box at home. Still 3 boxes, but distributed differently.
Click to expand...
No, the charger is not left on the bike in most cases. In fact, it's rare. And to think they are built better is just ridiculous. Most are wrapped with duct tape or shrink wrap.

friendly1uk said:
It seems like the same thing, because it is. However to disconnect the batteries from the charger is a lot of dangerous work each time. Yet to disconnect the charger from the next box is a simple 2 pin cord.
Click to expand...
I guess it all depends on your definition of dangerous. Yep, you could drop the pack on your toes if you're a klutz.

friendly1uk said:
The bms approach means leaving a bit more on the bike. Mine weighs an ounce. It is not really a weight issue. While sat there is does a whole host of other protection duties. Some of which might save you from destroying your expensive batteries, or lighting up the wiring with a short circuit. Most people like the ease of charging their bike with as much fuss as charging their phone. There are many benefits from leaving a circuit board on the bike, and the cost? well it is actually cheaper, because it is the mass market way of doing things.
Click to expand...
A 1 ounce BMS. Getting deep in here. And what about the disadvantages? Like the bms ruining your battery pack when left connected for longer periods of time. Or the output limits it will put on your battery pack.

friendly1uk said:
edit: Remember, Non of the fire threads are from bms users. What is and isn't safe is heavily stacked. That is why no commercial packs come without bms. You can do it differently if you like, but it puts you squarely in the 'at risk' group. All forums have lot of pics showing why you shouldn't stray to toy chargers but still lot of people do. We see many fires each year from this group. Sheds, garages, homes.

I can't state the facts much more clearly
Click to expand...
The sky is falling. What a crock. There's been fires caused by BMS wiring reported and documented here. And afaik, there's only been one house fire that was caused by a charger a person was using to bulk charge a huge lipo pack left unattended in his garage. A strict no-no for charging any rc lipo pack, with or without a bms.

If you want to hawk bms's, fine. But don't just show the advantages of them. There are just as many disadvantages. And a person needs both to make an informed decision.
 
mrfeelgooddrag26 said:
for me my ebike is all about cruising around looking cool i dont need it i just want it. i love pedaling around but at times id like to be able to have the option to do 25-30 mph without pedaling for aleast 15 miles of range the furthest ride ive done pedaling is 12 miles round trip to the mall about 6 miles from my house this is as far as i would ever take my ebike. so if i could build a bike with a range higher than that i would never use all that range most of my trips would be 5 miles max and i would want to do that at 20 to 25 miles an hour. my needs can be met by sla batteries but im all for learning a new technology but spending 300 dollars just to start out and learn about it is kind of holding me back from making the switch to lipo or lifepo4 batteries like everybody else im doing the ebike thing on a limited budget haha
Click to expand...
Ebiking can be cool, but a continuous 30 mph on a bike can't; it's just too dangerous. But back to the technicals - for 15 miles at 30mph you'd need about 30-40Ah pack.
 
so are these packs any good for building a 48 volt pack for my ebike?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-22-2V-5000mAh-50C-Max-55C-6S-6Cells-22-2Volt-RC-LiPo-Li-Poly-Battery-/251442770291?pt=Radio_Control_Vehicles&hash=item3a8b283173 it seems that its 22 volts in 1 pack if im right?? 2 of these in paralel would be 44.4 not quit 48 volts but defeniatly enough to run an ebike right? it would be awesome if these would work it would simplify my battery and help me get into lipo
 
2 of them in series would be 44 v nominal and should work fine in any 48v controller. Normal lvc for most 48v controller is around 40-42v.
:shock:
 
http://www.ebay.com/itm/2014-new-48v-12ah-Third-generation-Lithium-ion-rechargealbe-Battery-ebike-power-/310849448929?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item4860122be1
what do you guys think about this battery? the seller seems trust worthy only 1 bad review i read a few reviews for the batteries he has sold and people seem happy with his product, i really want a 20 ah or higher but if i can pick this up for this cheap and it be decent i would consider giving up the extra range
 
mrfeelgooddrag26 said:
so are these packs any good for building a 48 volt pack for my ebike?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-22-2V-5000mAh-50C-Max-55C-6S-6Cells-22-2Volt-RC-LiPo-Li-Poly-Battery-/251442770291?pt=Radio_Control_Vehicles&hash=item3a8b283173 it seems that its 22 volts in 1 pack if im right?? 2 of these in paralel would be 44.4 not quit 48 volts but defeniatly enough to run an ebike right? it would be awesome if these would work it would simplify my battery and help me get into lipo
Click to expand...
Why this HRB brand vs. Hobby King's Turnigy or Zippy packs? Can't find any reviews of HRB and at $69 it's not cheaper than the others.
 
15ah 48v lithium battery will go 15 miles at 30 mph.
 
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My 48v 15 ah pingbattery would go 19 miles, at 27 mph. That was just an ordinary kit, with a ho hum 20 amps controller.
 
Nothing bad would happen to the electronics.

Bad things might happen to your spokes, trying to carry 120 pounds of battery. But some bikes actually are built for carrying that much weight.

I think you are slightly misunderstanding AH, and confusing it with amps. Time for the old water analogy. Ah is like a quantity of water, like a gallon. More ah is more quantity. 12 ah is easy to carry, 50 ah is not so easy to carry. More just means you can go farther.

Amps is like how fast water flows. So if it was water, a small stream does no damage, but a flood does. Your motor may handle 20 amps of 48v fine, but burn and smoke if ridden very far with 50 amps.

The small gearmotors cant take 50 amps, but the larger direct drive motors can for about 10 miles, and the really big motors can handle 50 amps for many miles.

If you increase the AH of your current bike, it won't go faster or melt. The controller is limiting it to the same as before. It will just go farther.
 
Even if you confuse Ah for A, it still doesn't make any difference to your motor or controller, as far as electrically what the battery can provide: the motor will pull whatever it can from the controller, which will pull whatever it needs from the battery. The battery doesnt' force anything on either one (unless you use one that's too high a *voltage* for the controller electronics).


However:: Every bit of weight you add to a vehicle causes it to require more power for longer time to get it moving up to speed from zero, or for climbing hills.

If before you only had 150lb rider + 50lb bike + 30lb battery, for 230lbs total, then now you have 150lb rider + 50lb bike + 120lb battery, for 320lbs total, you just increased the mass by 1.4x. You can use that to figure out how much more energy it will take to get you moving on the flat from a stop, or acclerate from one speed to another, or to keep you moving up a hill at any specific speed.


So, while the actual battery Ah or A affects nothing, the extra weight of more battery *does* affect what you put your motor and controller thru, and whether they can handle it or not depends on their design/etc.
 
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