new eZip motor

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. three controllers. Four ?

basically I was just going to hook up the 24V controller to the 500W motor and unhook the 36V controller.

However I really want two 22V capable bikes as I have so many 6S packs.

Therefore my decision is to put bullet plugs on the motor on the front and bullets on both the 24V and 36V controllers for plugging into the motor.
This will give me the option of running either one I want. The motor on the back will get the other 36V controller mounted back there and will be able to run it with the motor up front however I will need separate thumb throttles.

I will get a left hand thumb throttle for the rear assist motor and use the one on the front for my main motor at 24V or 6S LiPo. The rear motor will be used mostly going up hills for a little boost. 20 mph gearing front at 22V and 32 mph gearing rear 36V. (1,283W total)

Top speed with the front running 6S LiPo wont be much over 22 mph. But when both motors are at 36V they will both be geared for a little over 30 mph and should do at least that. (1,550W total)

For now I will be installing the 24V controller on the front next to the 36V controller and will need to get some sort of connectors for the three wire throttle and the three wires coming from each controller.

I have said it before and will say it again. I am a genious. You don't have to take my word for it though. The true proof will be the videos when I cruise up hills 8 to 10 mph when the front motor is running 6S LiPo and the rear 36V. actually I see no reason why I could not get a 24V controller for the rear motor as well for even better gearing up hills running both motors at 24V.

Both motors at 36V may not be as good up hills but will achieve 0 to 30 swiftly. Thanks for posting.

LC. out.

The little guy followed me in my friend erics house downstairs a few days ago. There were a few cats and he had a wound on his side that was healing but was running from the cats in the basement :lol: he tried to hide in the laundry and I wrapped him up in it and got him a ten gallon aquarium and different mouse treat food, water and the bedding to hide in. I am getting him a wheel to run in tonight when I go to Wall - Mart.

His name is Hercules as I was on the phone with Doug and Doug picked out the name and I agreed as the ol lady was watching Hercules with Kevin Zorbo on the TV. LOL That is his official name I guess but I just call him little guy. :lol:

LC. out.

 

[DAND214]

Sorry DA, once again you beat me to the punch I thought it was at least a month or two longer. I was saying the same thing but some how I blew it away.

What "sorry" ...
Don't apologize for being usurped!
Give me a Damn you!

OK DAMN YOU!!!!

 

[marty]

x
It is 3 AM and drinking a beer. Thinking about writing some rap. here it goes. :lol:

I go from 0 to 30 in a big hurry

pedestrains scream before they run and scurry

no brakes needed so dont you worry

Big fat chopper forks on the Currie

LCs dream machines recless intentions

looney toon Acme created inventions

too many ghetto builds to even mention

two motors to get the laws attention

LCs gangsa EV rap is next dimention
x
LC. out

Forget this electric bicycle nonsense. Rapper is your calling. You could be a famous singer. Ya got YouTube figured out. Lets hear and see ya singing!

 

[DrkAngel]

Sorry DA, once again you beat me to the punch I thought it was at least a month or two longer. I was saying the same thing but some how I blew it away.

What "sorry" ...
Don't apologize for being usurped!
Give me a Damn you!

OK DAMN YOU!!!!

Haha Haha Haaaaaah! = evil laugh!

 

[Sunder]

Damn, you've had those 8Ah since August?
Maybe 150 days?
That means you have run then recharged those batteries two - three times a day ... every day!

Don't forget that:

they have been mostly sitting the last 6 months. I will get them going again soon.

So he's actually done 300-400 cycles in negative 2 months - cycling them before he even owned them. I'm not sure if that means he got them used, or created a paradoxical time loop or something.

Speaking of a lot of excessive 6S batteries though, I haven't ridden my electric bike since I got my electric motorcycle on the road. These are driven by a 16Ah 12S pack, but I also have a "daily" cell pack of 5Ah 14S, which has a range longer than I need for a daily commute.

I had thought I about rebuilding and selling the bike over the Christmas break, but just never got around to it, and I'm going back to work in 3 days time... I have 4S worth of the same cells, so I'm thinking of making them into 7S2P (32Ah total) and using them for my dad's farm, and just putting the eBike parts in storage.

Don't get me wrong, still an eBike enthusiast, but just don't really have a need for it right now. My job changed a couple months back so that I was seeing clients more, and rocking up on a motorcycle is still "professional". Rocking up on a home made electric bike... Less so.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. consider me a certified loon then. :lol:

Compare your (optimally geared ?) 800w front hub vs your 800w rear chain drive (over geared)!
"Geared" for 16mph gives you a strong 20mph (16mph hills) vs "geared" for 37mph gives you a wimpy 23mph (3mph hills)
(I still label a powerful front drive on short wheel base - high center of gravity kiddie bike as suicidal, tho ...)

Building the same over-geared chain drives and expecting different resulting performance is a definition of insanity.
Putting 2 such motors on a bike designed for pedal only ... could be deemed insanity².

I have not been working on the bike as it has been very cold out on my front porch and have not wanted to drag the bike in to scratch up the hardwood floors in my apartment. It is warming up but before I install the second motor on the back I need to hook up connectors to the controllers.

I will be running four controllers on this e bike. I will either be running both motors with separate 24V controllers for an all wheel drive 1,033W bike geared for approx. 21 mph I believe. Or both motors with two separate 36V controllers for 1,550W geared for approx. 31 mph.

The reasons for this are simple. I have a lot of 6S LiPo packs which none can be run with a 36V controller. Also since each 24V motor is geared for 20 mph or 22 mph a single 24V motor will slow down going up hills as optimal gearing is 16 mph as DA stated. However running both motors off of a single thumb throttle (if possible) and two controllers each hooked to 6S packs not only will it climb hills as well or better than a single motor geared for 16 mph but I will have double the range with the separate packs and separate motors working together with a single throttle.

I am not even sure when I will switch over to 36V but all controllers will have bullets for motor and power and the little connectors in the picture for throttle. It will be very simple to hook and unhook them to switch from 24 to 36V. Less than 5 minutes to switch over.

What I do know is I wont be running 6 SLA batteries to power two 36V controllers. With two motors it will be enough weight. Running a single motor on the front with three SLAs on the back is heavier than running two motors with LiPo packs or about the same. Two motors and six SLAs is totally insane. Especially on a kiddie bike with a 250 pound person. It is NOT happening.

So yes as usual I agree with you guys to some point and before I switch to 36V I will need at least four 4S packs or two for each motor in series. Until then I will have a pretty quick 20 mph e bike which should do very well up most hills. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Still using SLAbatts??

.
. . . . . . . . . . . LiPo vs SLA

25A controller with 10Ah batteries = 2.5C

At 0.5C discharge: 10Ah LiPo (6lb) = ~20Ah SLA (50lb) = 100lb @ recommended discharge capacity
At 1.0C discharge: 10Ah LiPo (6lb) = ~30Ah SLA (75lb) = 150lb @ recommended discharge capacity
At 2.0C discharge: 10Ah LiPo (6lb) = ~40Ah SLA (100lb) = 200lb @ recommended discharge capacity
At 2.5C discharge: 10Ah LiPo (6lb) = ~44Ah SLA (110lb) = 220lb @ recommended discharge capacity
At 3.0C discharge: 10Ah LiPo (6lb) = ~50Ah SLA (125lb) = 250lb @ recommended discharge capacity
At 5.0C discharge: 10Ah LiPo (6lb) = ~70Ah SLA (175lb) = 350lb @ recommended discharge capacity

*200% additional SLA size to meet recommended 50% discharge = reasonable battery life!

Good news?
16mph level cruising requires less than 1C!
Might even be able to get 5Ah usable from new 10Ah SLA!

Running 10Ah battery at 3C 30A: (Hill or full throttle when overgeared)
SLA outputs 1.25Ah recommended usable
LiPo outputs 9.00Ah recommended usable

For optimal life-performance, SLA batteries should not dip below 11V while discharging at 1C! 10.5V @ 3C!
Not final voltage! Voltage while running!
Reducing throttle and limping home after voltage gets low (slows down) drains battery to severe damage level.
LVC protection would prevent deep discharge at higher throttle - shuts off or engine stutter means pedal only or walk.
Low throttle reduces voltage sag and allows sucking the last bit of life from the battery!
Same for LiPo ... if proper LVC protection.
LC your pot throttles have no LVC protection! Sounds like your 36-48V capable hub builds might not protect either.
Use and monitor voltage meter continually!!!
LiPO - $2 Low voltage meter-alarms much more sensible-reliable than watching individual cells on discharger continuously!

Depends on your discharge rate.
Optimal LVC varies with discharge rate

Discharging below the recommended voltage points causes severe-rapid-permanent capacity-life loss.
Do not run batteries until they start to slow down!!! ...

Same goes for extending life with LiPo!
Also the safety factor.
Voltage drop when near empty is so drastic that 1 cell with 90% capacity could hit 0V (puff w/potential vent _ fire) while remaining 5 cells with 95% capacity still have 3.70V.

 

[latecurtis]

Do not run batteries until they start to slow down!!! ...

You do realize that the longer you run any type of battery(that I know of) past its usable or recommended life span in charging cycles that the less range you will get and it will eventually slow down during even modest 10 mph operation in less then three miles then two miles right to the bloddy end where you may not make it for more than a couple blocks.

No I do not plan on getting more SLAs. They are too heavy. However I may not understand all that information and graphs like some of you guys do I still get the basic concept and that is why I have been thinking hard about 6S LiPo. Dans old packs may have a month or two or less than 50 cycles of life. The SLAs not much either however their life can be extended and I can keep some of my money in the bank for a few more months if I use this method.

Running them in parallel. If I combine all four of dan's packs for 20AH at 6S LiPo and chug around at 10 to 15 mph they should last at least twice as long than if I were to run them in series with the Schwinn or the Diamond Back at 20 to 25 mph.

As far as the SLAs go I could run four of them in parallel series or even six but I would just rather kill them off as they are simply too heavy. Or better yet run LiPo 100% or the time and keep two SLAs on board for when the LiPo do slow down as if I unhook the LiPo as soon as they slow down and hook up the SLA it will save the LiPo on the trip back home. Thanks for posting.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

DA is talking about on a single ride, not over its life.

Lets just say you have a 6S battery, 5000mah. 5 cells are are over spec, and are 5200mah. 1 cell is at spec, 5000mh. This is a common scenario.

Now, in a perfect battery, all 6 cells will go down evenly. Battery will hit 3.2v per cell, and thats it. You apply a load, and voltage drops well below LVC and you can't go any further.

On the mismatched battery, 5 cells might still be at 3.5v when the smaller one is at 3.2v. Hit the throttle, and 5 cells don't sag. Still got another 200mah @ 5S to baby you home.the last cell however, is being pulled down to 0v and starts puffing. Probably too subtle to notice just yet, but put it in the charger, and boom, fireball.

This is why some people bottom balance, and those who don't (and are smart) don't touch the bottom 20% of capacity.

 

[DrkAngel]

LC .... I have tried and tried and tried to help you understand SLA, and all battery types for that matter ... to no reasonable advantage.
So, this will be my last effort on the subject!
Factors and degradation percentages are not precise but of reasonable quantities ... for educational purposes.

Do not run batteries until they start to slow down!!! ...

You do realize that the longer you run any type of battery(that I know of) past its usable or recommended life span in charging cycles that the less range you will get and it will eventually slow down during even modest 10 mph operation in less then three miles then two miles right to the bloddy end where you may not make it for more than a couple blocks.

Good point and horribly wrong! ... at the same time!!!
But ... "usable or recommended life span in charging cycles" is based on never discharging to the point that it starts to slow down!

About 11.90V (resting voltage) is considered empty - discharging more deeply causes accelerated and drastic degradation = damage

Cycle life is based on a prescribed DOD (Depth Of Discharge) and point where battery has degraded to capable of 60%(?) of rated capacity.


"Lead Acid resting State of Charge voltages

12.65 V = 100%
after 15min
12.45 V = 75% = 500 cycles
after 15min
12.24 V = 50% = 250 cycles
after 15min
12.06 V = 25% = 125 cycles
after 15min
11.89 V or less = fully discharged = 60 cycles
after 5min
11.50V severe damage-heat-capacity loss! = 20 cycles
after 2min
11.00V critical damage-heat-capacity loss! - 10 cycles

Added approximate "usable cycles" - if only discharged to those voltages! (static voltages)
In use, under throttle, might sag below 9V ... or much lower

Resting voltage is taken at room temperature and 12 - 24 hours after the completion of charging."

C rate of discharge also damages (accelerates degradation) capacity and usable life.

Usable capacity from new 10Ah SLA

@ 40A = 4C 1.7Ah
@ 20A = 2C 2.5Ah
@ 10A = 1C 3.0Ah
@ 5.0A = .5C 4.5Ah

But after 20 cycles ...
@ 40A = 4C 1.3Ah
@ 20A = 2C 2.3Ah
@ 10A = 1C 2.9Ah
@ 5A = .5C 4.45Ah

But after 50 cycles ...
@ 40A = 4C .9Ah
@ 20A = 2C 2.1Ah
@ 10A = 1C 2.8Ah
@ 5A = .5C 4.4Ah

etc. ...

You routinely discharge way to deeply for retaining good SLA battery life!
And your use of small Ah batteries degrades them rapidly!
and
etc. ...

 

[latecurtis]

thank you DA.

however even if there is a way to use SLAs the way you stated and make them last a very long time like greater than 400 cycles it still will be impossible to make them lighter.

Same goes for extending life with LiPo!
Also the safety factor.
Voltage drop when near empty is so drastic that 1 cell with 90% capacity could hit 0V (puff w/potential vent _ fire) while remaining 5 cells with 95% capacity still have 3.70V.

I have not really been using the SLAs much. I mainly run the 16 AH pack consisting of two 8.0 6S LiPo in parallel. however I may bring two SLAs with me for back up so I don't kill the LiPos.

Like the very second not minute but as soon as I notice the LiPo losing some power and slowing down I will shut it down and switch to the SLAs as SLAs are cheap to replace. about $20 or less for 10 AH and even if I only run them 5 to 10 mph they will get me home without pedaling.

As far as the puffed up pack and the post you posted yesterday I still say it was a defective cell. The 10.0 LiPo packs were brand new from e bay. They were both balance charged separate to 4.1V for use with the variable controller. I only went 25 mph for a few seconds as I chickened out. Doug's house is about 3.5 miles and back. 7 miles total.

Brand new 10.0 6S packs in series should be good for 12 to 15 miles at 4.2V even with 20 % being full throttle and about 8 to 10 miles at 4.1V how I run them that day. NOT LESS THAN 7 MILES at 10 to 15 mph 90% of the time and two small hills. It is nothing I did wrong. I got a defective cell and am shooting that LiPo pack and putting it out of it's misery. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

I only went 25 mph for a few seconds as I chickened out. Doug's house is about 3.5 miles and back. 7 miles total.

Could you please put this into your signature, so we can point at it every time you say you want a 40/50/60mph bike?

And no, using the Haro will not make you feel safer. Hayabusa frame, maybe...

 

[DrkAngel]

Yeah, puffed up cell was likely defective.
Lesser capacity than normal could be considered defective.

 

[latecurtis]

Yeah, puffed up cell was likely defective.
Lesser capacity than normal could be considered defective.

Thank you DA.

It is very rare that you ever agree with me.

Now what I need to do is get my lazy butt out of this chair and stop playing my pirate game long enough to work on my 20" bike and charge those old LiPo packs Dan sent and combine them into a single 20 AH pack so I can get maximum use out of them.

If I do run two motors they can power one 24V controller and the good 10.0 pack or the 16.0 (two 8S packs in series) can power the second.

My only question is when I get the 3 wire thumb throttle will it work hooked up to two controllers ? Please let me know if you can.

Thanks again. LC out.

 

[Sunder]

Most throttles are just plain potentiometers or hall effect sensors, so as long as they have a common ground, I can't see why they wouldn't work.

 

[DrkAngel]

Yeah, puffed up cell was likely defective.
Lesser capacity than normal could be considered defective.

Thank you DA.

It is very rare that you ever agree with me.

Of course a low voltage alarm would have prevented destruction.
Pack would still be usable ... at a somewhat reduced capacity.
With the option of adding a small cell in series for full capacity.

Unless "balance" did not complete properly ...
In which case cell-pack was destroyed due not monitoring cells after improper charging?

 

[latecurtis]

Unless "balance" did not complete properly ...
In which case cell-pack was destroyed due not monitoring cells after improper charging?

I have been using the skycharger for awhile now. they were balanced charged but to 4.1V LiLo as with the variable controller with the pot I was not sure it would run if charged to 4.2V.

Maybe it would have turned out different if I charged them to 4.2 but I doubt it. I am sticking with the pack was defective as the other pack runs and charges perfect. Also I remember that when I got them the one pack had a low cell.


Anyway I got the motor reinstalled on the front of the 20" bike. However I did not get the 24V controller hooked up yet or did I charge the old LiPo packs. Tomorrow is another day.

Also I don't have the second 24V controller yet and I cant find the bolts to mount the 80T $25 sprocket to the freewheel. I still want a second motor on the back but am going to get the front motor going with 6S LiPo first. Hopefully it will run better at 533W ,24V and 1833 rpm than at 800W 36V and 2750 rpm. Thanks.

LC. out

 

[DrkAngel]

Unless "balance" did not complete properly ...
In which case cell-pack was destroyed due not monitoring cells after improper charging?

I have been using the skycharger for awhile now. they were balanced charged but to 4.1V LiLo as with the variable controller with the pot I was not sure it would run if charged to 4.2V.

Maybe it would have turned out different if I charged them to 4.2 but I doubt it. I am sticking with the pack was defective as the other pack runs and charges perfect. Also I remember that when I got them the one pack had a low cell.

Well, that explains and confirms that pack was not properly charged!

If 1 cell was 3.60V vs 3.80V for remaining cells
A pack with 1 low cell will balance charge to

Cell 1 3.93V
Cell 2 4.13V
Cell 3 4.13V
Cell 4 4.13V
Cell 5 4.13V
Cell 6 4.13V

Then will begin the balance function of bleeding down cells 2 - 6
Bleed down of all cells, at typical balancing voltage, to match cell #1 might take several days!
At which point entire pack will require additional charge cycle.
Dependent on charger methodology, charger might provide automatic recycles at specific voltage levels or might require manual recycles.

• While it is possible that 1 cell of the pack was defective:
• Self-discharging - very usable if frequently (fully) balanced charged
• Low capacity - usable but diminishes entire pack Ah or requires additional cell in series

• It is also possible that 1 cell was somehow partially discharged during:
• production
• testing
• shipping
• handling
• changing connectors

Very likely - pack-cell was never properly-fully balanced charged - resulting in low cell discharging too deeply - destroying it.
What is certain is that ... cell was destroyed by discharging too deeply because it's voltage was not monitored!

 

[latecurtis]

http://prntscr.com/dvamxl

page 149 clearly shows that they were balanced correctly.

however.

http://prntscr.com/dvappn

http://prntscr.com/dvaq8i

Hooking them up in reverse polarity to that variable controller which has no protection for that could very well have been the cause of the bad cell. The fuse did not help as it did not blow as the electrons were flowing tho other way I guess. Not sure.

Anyway I will need to be more careful next time. especially since

http://prntscr.com/dvas2u

I have been discussing controller options with Bruno from Alien Power systems regarding the 37 mph Haro V3 build.
That will also be getting dual motors.

rear motor. Alien Power systems 2400W @ 6S LiPo rear wheel geared for 37 mph.

front motor. 1500W 48V hub motor. speed approx 35 mph.

Why I am not gearing higher is because I want to beat those pesky four wheelers at least from 0 to 30 mph.


thanks for posting.

LC out.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub motor turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. not much hope here

My big plan to have four controllers and switch back and forth between two 24V and two 36V is indeed a terrible plan from hell.

Why ? do you ask.

I think the bottom pictures tell the sad story. I totally SUCK at soldering. It is why I have been saying for months now that I was going to make parallel cables and combine Dan's old packs. It also explains why I ran them with the bolts and ice cube trays as long as I did and have not run them since.

I did not open a window and now have a splitting headache not to mention I went thru almost a whole tube of solder just to solder 6 wires together.

I really do not think I hate anything more than soldering wires. Lining up motor sprockets to wheel sprockets is frustrating sometimes but soldering is really the pits.
It is something I would gladly pay DA $30 or $40 to do. I hate soldering. I truly do.

I got the other controller coming in the mail for the rear motor but for now I am hoping to get it running with 6S LiPo. I will do the controller wire tomorrow with those crimp on connectors
and electrical tape.

Hopefully it will be up and running soon. I installed the extra heavy duty bolts for the motor bracket. Thanks.

LC out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Damn boy ...
Don't know if it's the fine tip 50w iron, not enough temp or some abhorrence for flux ...
but that is some piss poor soldering.
I've tried to teach you some basic soldering skills but I guess my teaching efforts have gone awry!

Advise you watch some youtube videos on basic soldering.

[youtube]Zu3TYBs65FM[/youtube]

or more choices

How to solder wire

 

[latecurtis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbnyXzSP-1k&feature=youtu.be

these little bullet connectors will work for the throttle.

i may not have perfect gearing and may or may not install the other motor on the back. It depends on the performance at 6S LiPo.

The 24" cargo bike is 500 Watts and geared for 17.5 mph and barley makes it up some hills I climb.

This 20" bike is 533 watts and geared for 21.5 mph. However there is a pedal chain on the 20" bike and no chain on the 24" bike. That will compensate for the slightly poorer gearing. The other thing is some level of waterproofing.

I need a bike to get me around in the rain. Not heavy or Torrential rain but an e bike that is weather resistant. Maybe not weather proof. Tomorrow when I install the controller I will show you how that will happen. thanks.



LC out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Pahleeeease watch some videos on soldering!
You are presenting what I must call ... an embarrassment.

 

[DAND214]

LC, good to see you are back again. Sorry to see you still have a problem with soldering. Can we see the tip of the iron you are using?
As Da said, it appears you are using a small tip.

I think you need to stop drinking and don't solder the wires to the keyboard :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Don't give up on that wiring. Connections are important on the performance of the whole system.

Dan

 

[Sunder]

A few tips from someone who used to be bad at soldering. I've gotten a truck load better in the past year, as I've done a LOT of soldering.

1. If you really don't want to solder, BP connectors are your friend. You can fit 3 x 14AWG wires into this 32A model:

2. If you do want to solder, some alligator clips, or better yet a small electronics "helping hand" is invaluable... Even if it's just for cheering you on:

3. Heatshrink can hide your sins a lot better than electrical tape:

If you do want to solder, then this is the correct way to join two wires (Other good ones are available, but I find this is neatest and easiest:

My top tips are:

1. Correct temp
2. Right size tip (for wires that large, a fairly large one)
3. Clean tip
4. Enough flux
5. Preheat the wire
6. And although the correct technique is to melt the solder onto the wire, I find it easier to melt it directly on the iron and let it run into the wire. YMMV.