new eZip motor

[DAND214]

Well LC I guess you survived her.

Be sure you ask Bruno what kind of throttle you will need for that thing.
what you have doesn't work on those things, I think.

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

Ok thanks.

The weather took a turn for the worse again as it is cold out but supposed to warm up by next week.

Also the pirate game got really crazy as I started a huge war. I got allies helping and was winning last night but not today.

Thanks for posting.

I will probably get a reading on those packs tomorrow and hopefully run them then or on Monday.

LC out.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. The Little e bike that Could.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI3cfSKBuXw&feature=youtu.be


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bB2fS6bFgTA&feature=youtu.be

This bike can climb hills with no problem. The distance traveled was 1.1 mile one way according to google maps. However I traveled a little farther by hitting those side streets with little traffic so I could get into the throttle.

The start of the first video was downhill and the end of the second video was up those same hills
and if running a single motor it would have barley made it up the last hill instead of accelerating up the hill as I had to apply my front brake to stop at the end of the second video.

The 24" cargo bike with the single motor will make it up the hill but at about half the speed as this bike. Yes there is room for improvement. As the picture shows the two motors gearing are NOT exactly the same. Also power output for the front motor is approx. 533W and the rear motor 500W.

however very similar. The rear motor uses the cheap #25 chain and is geared about 1 mph slower than the front motor. When applying the throttle I can tell all is not perfect but it does get the job done. both motors have an 11T sprocket the rear #25 with an 80T wheel sprocket and the front a 60T wheel sprocket #420 heavy duty chain.

The old LiPo packs are also very stable. I measured them with two separate balancers and all packs were within 0.3V. 4.16 to 4.18V with only one or two cells at 4.16V out of all four packs. I just measured them now and all are within 0.2V at 3.98 to 4.0V. The balancers were only .01V different for total pack voltage on only one pack and I used the balancers to calibrate the multi-meter to 25.1V


I may order a second 800W - 36V motor like the one on the front and a 60T spoke sprocket also for the rear for identical power and gearing front and rear. I am not sure as I want to move on to the Haro V3 build. Also I may reinstall the motor on the back of the 24" cargo bike with the 20" wheel on the rear as the chain hits against the mounting bracket and drives me insane.

Also with the variable controller I have the option of running it at 36 or 44V but not with the chain hitting like that. Thanks and please post when you can.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

Alright, call me a stalker, but I'm GPS speedoing your ride.

I've taken a small section from a couple land marks - It's 335m from in front of Miller's Landscaping, to the underpass:

http://www.gmap-pedometer.com/?r=7030755

You passed Miller's at 14s

You enter the underpass at 1m 21s, or 81s, for a total of 67s travel time.

This means you are travelling 335/67 or 5 metres per second. This equates to 18 kilometers per hour, or 11 miles per hour. This makes sense, as I can see road signs for 20mph, and cars are overtaking you at speed. And as you point out, this is down hill.

Let's be frank. For that 335m, I could outrun you on foot.

Some bits of the video does "feel" a bit faster than this, like just before the car reverses out in front of you (You showed remarkable forbearance... I think I would have had choice words for that guy), and in the back streets just before you blow through that stop sign, but not more than maybe 20-25% faster. Maybe someone else who watched the video can give their opinion on that?

I'm not saying this to put you or your build down, but if you were expecting your pace to be higher than this, then there is a disconnect between your maths and your reality.

Man... I could do with some Taco Bell or Burger King right now.

 

[latecurtis]

You do notice and realize the conditions of the roads I am dealing with and yes the way people drive here ? If I only traveled say 11 to 13 mph and maybe 15 mph top speed on those side streets well for 22V LiPo it really is not that bad. It will haul about 60 pounds of groceries back home from any of the supermarkets including Price Chopper, Save a lot or Hannaford.

I also noticed that it lacks in top speed but will go up a hill under heavy load. For a higher speed it will be very simple to switch to 36V when I need to. I already have the 36V controllers.
I also have the bullets and another front basket so with another $5 package of connectors for the throttle wires It can be done in a day and all I need to do is switch baskets. Everything simply plugs in. :lol: I designed it that way. With another 48V controller I have a 2 killowatt + ride.

The picture on the bottom show them and a 48V controller on the top. However running my six old SLAs in the rear cargo basket would significantly reduce the amount of cargo I can haul.

The result of running two motors at 22V LiPo is greater overall torque at low speed but it does not work well for high speed. One reason could be they are different motors and gearing is slightly different. The other day when the wire nut came loose on the rear motor was an example. It did not really slow the bike down a lot maybe from 15 mph to 13 mph but you could really tell the difference in power. At first I thought it was the batteries and was relieved it was a simple wire nut. It is before the video in the church parking lot.

At 36V the front motor will see 32 mph gearing and if I get another 800W motor for the back and retire the 24V motor for a test motor then with the same 56T spoke sprocket in the back the motors shall be more in Synk with each other so maybe due to friction of the chain or some other mysterious factor I should get at least 27 mph out of it. Total power will = 1600W at 36V and at 48V = 2,132W. That will be a really scary ride for a 20" bike don't you think. Thanks for posting.

LC out


3/1/17

I have been working on the 24" cargo bike with the 1,000W 48V Unite motor on the back with the 20" wheel and 60T spoke sprocket. I raised the motor up slightly with some extra nuts and washers in an attempt to try and stop the chain from hitting the metal bracket on the bottom. If it works I will have the option of running it at 44V which will be extremely fast compared to the 22V I am running now. Right now estimated top speed is approx. 17 mph but at 44V it should reach 27 mph easily. I will be doing a trial run tomorrow and also looking to order a speedometer. I would like one that is easy to uninstall and reinstall or a portable unit as I have four running e bikes now and would like to see what the speed is on each. Also a watt meter would also be something to order this month coming up. Thanks.

4.17 * 12 = 50.04V

LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

As the hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns

I also noticed that it lacks in top speed but will go up a hill under heavy load.

skip to the middle of the video and notice the footage climbing the hill.

I am a genius. And I am correct with my math and my methods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz8cFMchbBs

Alright, call me a stalker, but I'm GPS speedoing your ride.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NI3cfSKBuXw

Towards the end of the video a measurment between telephone poles will give a accurate measure of speed
good luck running that fast. At least for any length of time, lol
.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. 44V test run.

Ok the 24" cargo bike with the 20" wheel on the back is ready for a test run at 44V with the old LiPo packs.

The gearing is for 32.5 mph which is over-geared.

1,000 / 48V = 20.8W per volt.

45V = 1,000 - 60 = 940W

Basically the reason why this will work really good is it really is not over geared by much.

For perfect gearing 30 mph = 1,000W

We have 30.5 mph = 940W

Now lets do a video before dark to see the performance of this gearing. The chain is tight and not hitting the bracket and 22V tested on my front porch. I shall post the link upon my return .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1QpTsKxgNQ&feature=youtu.be

The weather is horrible for anything over 15 mph. I had to have been going at least 25 mph but as I said in the video and as you could tell the wind was blowing me around and my hands were freezing. I found my other glove when I got home.

The chain is still hitting on something. Not sure if it is the bracket now. Basically it is a good cargo bike. With the variable controller I will probably run that bike at 36V as I have the six SLAs.
I can run them three at a time and good for short trips with not too steep hills. For steep hills hauling cargo the 20" bike with the dual 24V motors is obviously a better choice.

I now have electric bicycles for every occasion. For long distance, top speed and comfort the Schwinn is the best choice.
For medium range and excellent hill climbing the 20" Diamond Back is perfect.

For light duty cargo and long range the 24" cargo bike will work well and ok for small hills.
For the heavy duty hauler and big hills the 20" bike with the dual motors will get the job done.

For top speed the Schwinn takes the prize at 44V good for about 27 mph with the 24" cargo bike coming in second at around 25 mph.
I will be shooting videos of the Schwinn and Diamond Back when the weather warms up.

I separated the packs and took a voltage and the cells in all four packs range from 3.84 to 3.87V. I will not charge them back to 4.2 as I did listen Dan when you said not to let them sit fully charged. I will be running the SLAs next as I have not ran them in months. I also need to run that good 10.0 - 6S pack soon also as I have not ran that for months either. The puffed up one is still outside in the dryer waiting for the LiPo shoot. :lol:

I am not sure when I will be starting the Haro V3 project and the FX dirt bike project however both builds are a definite.

Thanks and please post when you can.

LC out.

PS. I got the speedo at Wall-Mart. Now I got an excuse to make four more videos or more as all my bikes can run at different voltages.
The Schwinn and the Dimond Back will do 36 or 44 / 48V and both cargo bikes 22, 36 and 44V once I get a second 48V controller for the dual motor setup.The 24" bike I rode today is already set up for that with the variable controller.

 

[DAND214]

Good deal, you did it! Remember they need to be calibrated for any different size.

Dan

 

[Sunder]

Nice Now we get some real metrics.

If you can't manage what you can't measure, then that maxim applies double for anything you want to tweak.

 

[latecurtis]

i got no clue.

will try to hook it up today

https://discordapp.com/

could we use this here.

i am at a meeting now in the pirate game

i will look at the speedo in an hour or so.

LC out

Basically DAs graph power vs speed does not add up.

Estimated speed according to DAs graph + the gear ratio calculater on page 71 is 20 mph. Not 9 mph. There is a serious error somewhere.

Also this time it cannot be blamed on gearing. The power vs speed graph clearly shows that 500 watts is plenty of power for 20 mph gearing. Not only that but the bike gained speed going up the hill it hit 5 mph which was over 50% of the top speed of 9 mph. If the gearing was so terrible then the bike WOULD NOT even made it up the hill. This makes no sense to me.

I also checked the batteries with the multi-meter and two balancers and got 25.09V and 25.08V on the meters and 25.1V on the multi-meter.

I even made sure the brakes were not rubbing on the bottom of the hill. I also did the exact same route before that video I did on the videos yesterday and top speed according to that speedo was only 8 mph. Someones information is definitely wrong. Either DAs graph or the sprocket calculator is way off. I do not have a watt meter and checked and is most difficult to hook up. It requires another unit as the ones I saw cant go inline with the power wire. They need to run off another device. Also I am using double 16 gauge wire going to the motor and also bullet connectors. No way I could be losing that much power.

According to the graph approx. 100 watts of power is required for approx 10 mph and the bike should be getting approx. 500W and for the sake of argument it only gets 400W to the motor speed should still be at least 15 mph as according to the graph a mountain bike should go greater than 20 mph with 400 watts going to the motor.

Please let me know why the graph and or sprocket calculator is radically wrong or could it be the speedo is nothing but junk. I calibrated it for the 24" mountain bike wheel it is on. the code is 1088 and I entered it several times and even took the battery out and reset it. Thanks.

LC out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmB5_MIMIec

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. 36V ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4OeP-24NqEs&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssJ475ONtGk&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMTRtq41_K4&feature=youtu.be


I measured each SLA separate after charging. each was around 13.3V. Even if they dropped to 38V in the two blocks where I started the video top speed only went from 8 to 11 mph but voltage increased from 25 to 38V. A 13V increase and only 3 to 3.5 mph difference. If power = 1,000 @ 48V then @ 36V power should = 750 watts.

There was approx a two mph increase climbing the hills. The second video on the straight road left at the top of the hill showed 9 mph at 25V and 12 mph at 38V.
Either the speedometer is off or sprocket calculator and power vs speed graph are big jokes.

I am doing scientific experiments here and to me it looks physically impossible. However I will need to order a second speedometer of a different brand and get different brakes for the front that do not stick. I did oil the chain but it is very tight as I did not want it hitting on the metal bracket.

I believe that when I charge the LiPo packs dan sent and do one last video for that bike tomorrow I will see 15 mph. Another 3 mph increase as 4.17 * 12 = 50.04V - 38V = 12.04V increase.
Since 38V - 25V = 13V then I may only see 14 mph at 50V. If that is so then no amount of friction or heat/power loss will explain that. 50V = at least 1,000 watts which according to the power to speed graph = 30 mph. Also according to sprocket calculator 30.5 mph.

I am simply pointing out that my gearing can't possibly be at fault. If my gearing were that piss poor then the bike simply would have failed miserably going up either of those hills today.
There has to be another cause. Also I have rode both bikes with the hub motors and I will be skipping the dual motor set up as it is about the same as the 24" cargo bike. The only difference between the two would be if I were to attempt to haul like 80 pounds up one of those hills. Obviously the dual motor set up would have more torque with power going to both wheels.

I will simply prove that not only is the graph power vs speed wrong but so is sprocket calculator as both the hub motors will prove it. Neither one of them will go even close to 25 mph and the Schwinn is 1,000 watts and the Diamond Back 800 watts. My guess is the Schwinn will see 21 or 22 mph tops and the Diamond back maybe 18 mph. Thanks. Please let me know what you think as misinformation is not a good thing.

The other possibility is the speedometer is a piece of junk. The reason I suspect that is because you have to put in a code for wheel size. The graph I made shows why this does not make any sense as the computer should be measuring each revolution and adding the distance if it were a straight line. Thus the larger the wheel the longer the straight line would naturally be. The word suspect is common expression that describes something as very questionable and that is what I think about entering a code for wheel size as it makes even less sense then the graph and sprocket calculator.

I will need a totally different speedometer for the bike and will need to order one online and then we shall see if in fact the power vs speed graph and sprocket calculator is wrong or it is just the speedometer is a piece of Chinese junk and I got ripped off by Wall-Mart.

Also I created that formula in the diagram from my head. I did not lie to any of you about going to college for electrical technology. I remember using many formulas there and I would like to know if that one is accurate of if I made a mistake as I am not here just to build electric bicycles I am also here to learn.I may wish to return to college someday and EV technology will be and is my study.

Thanks.

LC out.

 

[Sunder]

The graph DA provided will be measured at the wheel, and probably under ideal conditions (Flat, smooth road, no wind).

For an efficient system, I'd say add 50% for system losses to get watt measurement at the battery. This will account for losses over wiring, connectors, and through the controller and motor.

For your system, I'd be at least tripling the figures. I'm not putting you down. Partly it's the design - Roller chains in the perfect scenario are about 97-98% efficient, but a motorcycle mechanic once told me when servicing my bike, that even a couple extra pounds of tension can get it down to the 80s real quick, and kill the chain as well. Same with being too loose, but not quite as bad. If it rattles, it indicates energy is being lost as sound - but even more as heat and undesirable movement.

Then there's the issue of the quality of your connectors, and unless you've redone all your joints, the quality of your soldering joints.

And even if your gearing is good, but not perfect, you'll lose a hell of a lot more. After about 70% of rated speed, efficiency goes down like a lead balloon.

Those graphs are to be used in the context of designing system with theoretical applications, not to compare your final build to it.

 

[DrkAngel]

Lift wheel into air.
Run throttle full and check speed.
This should indicate speed via gearing.

 

[latecurtis]

Lift wheel into air.
Run throttle full and check speed.
This should indicate speed via gearing.

OK

Right now the magnet is on the front wheel and this bike is rear wheel drive.
However if I go to Wall-Mart I can get some more of those smaller zip ties like the ones which came with the speedo and hook to the rear wheel and change the code for a 20" wheel instead of a 24" wheel. Then I can do it.

There should be quite a lot of difference with no or little load (the chain and sprocket friction) vs that and 250 pounds.

Also I am really curious why I need to enter the code for different wheel sizes as I mentioned at the end of my post and if my math is correct on that formula for speed. I may have left out pie.
Anything that is round like a circle will need pie and that may be what the reason is for wheel size. Not sure but I may be walking to Wall-Mart tonight for exercise and either tonight or tomorrow will try what DA said. Thanks guys for posting. This is good and I seem to be learning more with every page of this post.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Does look like you set the speedometer wrong.
Use the setting in the manual!

Of course those whimpass alligator clips will never throughput decent power.

 

[DAND214]

I may have left out pie.

You did and I was hungry so I ate it

I read you Pm and responded before seeing these videos. I think you don't have the magnet close enough to the sensor. Only way I get close is near the spoke cross and it needs to be about 1/16". The speed was faster this time but still might be slower than the chart. As Sunder said, tight chain.

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

I guess we will shoot the video over again tomorrow

It would be better if I did not have to hold the camera awhile operating the bike to see the road and the speedo.

It is becoming a safety hazzard.

It is like driving a car and playing with the radio with one hand and a cell phone in the same hand that is on the wheel.

The potentiometer, and kill switch on the right and my one brake and camera is on my left. It sucks.

I will see what I can rig up tomorrow. Thanks.

LC out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Just drive by a school or work zone speed alert sign and compare to speedometer.

... guess you'd have to be awake during daytime?

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns, A silly old man who needs glasses.

Front wheel with massive heavy sprocket, big chain and motor - spinning at high speed may require forceful yet delicate turning.
If chain prone to jumping off at normal speeds, better expect chain to jump off at high speed turn, flailing like a machete, jambing into hub-fork and locking front wheel, or just breaking as it wedges ... if you're lucky ... etc.

As you said over geared and on top of that the chain is as tight as a banjo string. Which causes more drain on the system. There is no way I would put a chain drive on the front wheel, that chain come off at speed and wraps around the fork, you are done!!!!!!!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMG0fuLcJMo

I see it this way. If the chain is a little tight there is less chance of it coming off vs if the chain is too lose. I would rather lose 100 watts or even 200 watts of power then to have the chain get caught up in the spokes at any speed to be honest. It is a royal pain in the ass to line up the sprockets and would like to get 100 miles or so at least without having to go thru that.

With that said It is drizzling outside today so the only things I managed to accomplish are the other three SLAs I have not ran in awhile are charged and ready to go and the magnet and sensor is fixed on the bike for better accuracy. Also I found the manual which came with the on-board computer in case I have to reset the speedo again for the wheel size.

Please let me know why the graph and or sprocket calculator is radically wrong or could it be the speedo is nothing but junk. I calibrated it for the 24" mountain bike wheel it is on. the code is 1088 and I entered it several times and even took the battery out and reset it. Thanks.

 

[DrkAngel]

.
.......24" code is 1888 ... you set 1088 ! ... ?

 

[Sunder]

.
.......24" code is 1888 ... you set 1088 ! ... ?

That doesn't sound like a code... That sounds like the circumference in millimetres...

A 24 x 1.75" tyre has a circumference of 1890mm.

 

[DrkAngel]

.
.......24" code is 1888 ... you set 1088 ! ... ?

11mph (1088) = 19mph (1888)

Crappy alligator clips will cause your 38V SLA to sag drastically at controller ... maybe <30V with
full throttle

.

 

[latecurtis]

Yes.

As I said I need glasses. :lol:

It is also why I put three of over the top of the picture. :lol:

The Idea was to take the picture in case I lost the manual again and it is then I realized my mistake with the zero instead of the 8.

With that said It is drizzling outside today so the only things I managed to accomplish are the other three SLAs I have not ran in awhile are charged and ready to go and the magnet and sensor is fixed on the bike for better accuracy. Also I found the manual which came with the on-board computer in case I have to reset the speedo again for the wheel size.

Hopefully tomorrow it wont rain so I can do those videos over. First 22v then 36V and then 44V.

After that I will see what is up with the dual motors. The gearing on that was 20.5 for the one motor and 21.5 the other. I believe due to the chains being tight I will only get about 18 mph though but it is ok as it is a heavy cargo hauler and good up the hills. Also there are three major supermarkets all within 1- 1/2 miles away so it is a perfect grocery geter.

After that I can do the 20" Diamond Back with the 800W hub motor and then the Schwinn both at 36V first then 44V. I will then have a speed for all four bikes at every voltage possible with the batteries and controllers I have. Thanks again for the help. It is a constant learning experience as now I know about speedometers and have a better understanding of how gearing works.

Crappy alligator clips will cause your 38V SLA to sag drastically at controller ... maybe <30V with
full throttle

I have a good excuse for using those crappy clips now. :lol:

I only use them for the SLAs as I do not think I will be replacing them once they are of no use. I can run the 24" cargo bike at 22 or 44V with the LiPos with the bullets. It would be a waste of money to solder bullets to the SLAs and then make a charging cable with more bullets as those bullet connectors are not that cheap. It costs about $10 for five pairs of them. I would need three pairs for the battery terminals then another three pairs for a parallel charging cable to charge with the 6S LiPo charger. Why spend the money on those or a 36V SLA charger when I can spend the money on more 6S LiPo packs.

The SLAs are mainly used for test runs and I will not be running anything at 36V once they are dead. Also 5S LiPo packs are way more expensive than 6S packs. I have never seen any good deals on them. Thanks again for all the good advice.

We shall keep the EV revolution alive.

LC out.

 

[latecurtis]

I did the math on sprocket calculator.

If I run the front motor on the dual motor cargo bike at 36V and 750W instead of 24V and 500W gearing will be for 32 mph.

I can run the rear 500W motor at 24V and change the sprockets to 56T spoke and 11T motor for #420 chain and gearing will be for 29 mph.

Counting losses from the SLAs and alligator clips power will = 1350W Total - 450 loss = 900W = 25 mph.

Perhaps with gold plated clips I can get 1,000W and 26.5 mph.

I do not believe 30 mph is possible with anything other than a recumbent bike with 1,000W.

 

[Sunder]

I did the math on sprocket calculator.

If I run the front motor on the dual motor cargo bike at 36V and 750W instead of 24V and 500W gearing will be for 32 mph.

I do not believe 30 mph is possible with anything other than a recumbent bike with 1,000W.

You have something better than the sprocket calculator now. You have a speedo. So prop the wheel up in the air, full throttle, and let the wheel speed reach equilibrium. The speed that is reached should be around 90-95% of the theoretical speed. If it is not, you still have way too much voltage sag between battery and controller.

I did 30mph on a mountain bike with "1000w" well, it was a 1000w controller at least. I never measured how much it was genuinely taking. I suspect it was a little over.

You only need 500w at the tyres to go 30mph in theory on a road/race bike. For most well built systems, that would mean about 800-1000 battery watts depending on weight, aero profile and tyres.