new eZip motor

[latecurtis]

Anything is fair game for onboard charging as long as it dont run off of fossile fuels. That would defeat the whole purpose of running an electric bike vs gas. I am sure about 10 years from now we will se something. Also new battery technology wil enable much longer distance. I know they are developing that as I have read articles on it.

http://www.scienceshareware.com/bicycle-generator-faq.htm#How much power can a human put out

Towards the bottom of that page are some pretty interesting graphs. DA. could appreciate them as he is very well knowledged on graphs. He is basically a graph expert so can better read them. From what I see and my Material science background which I got a B in college back in 06. Superconductive lightweight materials, and possibly producing an electromagnetic field without utilizing heavyweight magnets could lower the weight and raise the effeciency enabling a higher power output.

Basically I believe further research is due to the cause. 10% seems kind of low considering say 26" or larger wheels are spinning. What I said earlier about small would in fact make them inefficient. Large but very light in weight will be the key to success in their design making them much more efficient. Also building a generator inside the center of a wheel hub is not the answer. I think the answer is turning the wheel into a generator. could not put pic up. Have to open the attachment. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

 

[Sunder]

Anything is fair game for onboard charging as long as it dont run off of fossile fuels. That would defeat the whole purpose of running an electric bike vs gas. I am sure about 10 years from now we will se something. Also new battery technology wil enable much longer distance. I know they are developing that as I have read articles on it.

How about you read this post first: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=7891#p119209

Justin's the owner of this site as well as the owner of Grin eBikes and a pretty smart guy. Everything he says is backed by data. To contradict him, you'd either have to be a genius or an imbecile.

The thing is, potential energy can only be practically stored in one of a handful of ways - one is fossil fuels, another is through a complex redox reaction. The first you're ruling out as defeating the purpose of going electric, the other is very power limited, because the chemical conversion from fat to motion is slow. However, the good news is I have a way to do this with 92-97% efficiency. Here it is:

Take the motor off the bike and pedal.

 

[Skalabala]

The best range extender is peddle power

 

[DrkAngel]

Well 1st ...
One of my pet peeves are the ignorant (IMO) who ask "Can you charge it back up by pedaling?".
My typical reply is something similar to...
"Wouldn't that kinda defeat the entire purpose of an electric bike?
Electric assist is to make pedaling easier.
You'd have to pedal twice as hard as a normal bike ... for hours ... to recharge 2 cents worth of electricity!

Most motors are, or can be, generators.
To take advantage, you just need a regen capable controller.

At top unloaded speed,
a motor outputs nearly as much energy as is input,
creating a minimal voltage differential.
42V in, turning the motor at sufficient speed to "generate" ~36V.

With throttle released, at same motor speed, motor will output 36V, but is not capable of charging 42V battery.
Either motor speed must be notably higher ~ ≥20% faster or controller must provide a transformer function doubling(?) motor output voltage ...
EG 24V motor output doubled to 48V >> charging 42V ...
The larger the voltage differential >>> the greater the charging amperage and the greater the deceleration invoked by the regen (regeneration-recharge).

2nd pet peeve are the tragically ignorant who's eyes widen with the inspiration and say ...
"You know ... if you put a generator on that, you could be charging as you ride and keep going forever!"

 

[latecurtis]

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/free-energy-generator-gravity/#.VopFIWco7IU

The larger the voltage differential >>> the greater the charging amperage and the greater the deceleration invoked by the regen (regeneration-recharge).

2nd pet peeve are the tragically ignorant who's eyes widen with the inspiration and say ...
"You know ... if you put a generator on that, you could be charging as you ride and keep going forever!"

First of all I agree with the fact you will never be able to keep going forever. All I am saying is there is room for improvement and harnessing power thru deceleration by this regen thing dont cut the mustard as they say. I am not even thinking along those lines.
Building the wheels themselves to generate electricity while in forward motion has nothing to do with deceleration. As the wheel turns it generates electricity period. The wheel acts as a generator and the chain driven motor or your feet turns the wheels. I redid it check it out again.

 

[latecurtis]

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/free-energy-generator-gravity/#.VopFIWco7IU

 

[Sunder]

Building the wheels themselves to generate electricity while in forward motion has nothing to do with deceleration. As the wheel turns it generates electricity period. The wheel acts as a generator and the chain driven motor or your feet turns the wheels. I redid it check it out again.

You might want to think that statement through a little more carefully. Look up the law of conservation of energy. Since you can't create electrical energy from nothing, what form is it being converted from?

 

[latecurtis]

DA. Please just look at the link. It is related somehow to the discussion. I am not disagreing with you. I just feel further research cant hurt. thanks.

LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

The diagram clearly shows the magnet in the center of the hub. the conductive material is inside the rim spinning around the magnet. the motor or pedal make the wheel / conductive material spin. It should be pretty straightforward.

The link I posted could possibly make the delovepment more possible or enhance the principal.

 

[latecurtis]

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/free-energy-generator-gravity/#.VopFIWco7IU

 

[Sunder]

http://www.greenoptimistic.com/free-energy-generator-gravity/#.VopFIWco7IU

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

You CANNOT be serious!

Hey, I have a magnet that has been stuck to a fridge for years. Imagine gow much energy it must have to resist the "energy" of gravity for so long. When do you think it'll run flat? Imagine if we could harness that years worth of energy in a much shorter period... wow.

In all seriousness dude, gravity is not a source of energy. Gravity creates potential energy in an object the same way as a difference in electrical charge creates potential energy. Once that energy is spent either by the movement of mass or electrons, it needs to be reintroduced by moving the mass away from equilibrium state, or moving electrons away from equilibrium state. Both of those require energy.

You however, just made my night laughing at the gullibility of some people.

 

[latecurtis]

It just makes sense to me if you can get 10 to 20% from some little regan thing ( A single unit) Then two 26" wheels built to generate a current when spinning thru whatever means (A DC motor or human power) it will generate back 30 to 40% of the power going in at least. Not go on forever! I never said that. Nothing to do with gravity or that link I posted. I only glanced at it anyway. I was only speculating that there may be some useful technology/concepts in it somewhere unless it was taken out of a fiction magazine. That is all I am saying. I am not stating I am a genious or will be smart enough to develop any of it either. I am simply stating I am willing to bet it will happen. about 40% compared to the 10 or 20% for that regan thing Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

It just makes sense to me if you can get 10 to 20% from some little regan thing ( A single unit) Then two 26" wheels built to generate a current should give 30 to 40% at least. Not go on forever! I never said that. Some of the technology in that gravity thing could be utilized in the development of the wheel/generator I am refeering to. The technology will improve. That is all I am saying. I am not stating I am a genious or will be smart enough to develop it either. I am simply stating i am willing to bet it will happen. Thanks.

LC. out.

The thing is, the gravity "thing" is a hoax. There's nothing usable in it to improve the efficiency of regen.

The law of conservation of energy has never been broken. Never.

When you move your bike, you need X watts to overcome friction, then air resistance. Anything over X will be used to accelerate your mass. When you are at cruising speed, you need X watts to maintain your speed. At this speed, you have kinetic energy. If you stop putting any more energy into the system, you will continue coasting. This is NOT free energy. You are burning off your kinetic energy by overcoming friction and wind resistance. Eventually you will stop.

However, most people want to stop faster than this natural process takes, and so will apply brakes. Now instead of just the kinetic energy being used to overcome road and bearing friction and wind resistance, it's also burned off onto the brakes, and turned into thermal and deformational energy. Alternatively, you could hit a large object and turn it into deformation energy with a different target.

Now, instead of wasting that energy in deforming your face or heating your rims/brake pads, some clever cookie decided that your motor, being a convenient reversible energy converter, can be used to recapture that into electrical energy. It's not 100% efficient. But in a well designed car, they estimate about 50% of your kinetic energy is returned into electrical energy.

I can see you raising your hand to object now. But, but, but, Sunder, if a bike can only improve efficiency by 10%, and cars with dedicated regen systems can capture 50% of their kinetic energy, why can't someone do the same for the bike? Because of the way its phrased. You're not capturing 50% of the energy spent. You're capturing 50% of what is left over after real work has been done.

If you put if you spend say 1000 joules to get to X km/h, then 100 joules per minute maintaining that speed, then 1000 joules is all you have any potential to recapture. If you had a 50% efficient regen, and you instantly started and stopped, the best you could ever hope to capture is 500 joules. If you cruised for 10 minutes, then you put in 1000 + (100x10) or 2000 joules. The best you could ever hope to recapture is still 500 joules or 25%.if you cruised for 40 minutes, then you put in 1000 + (100 x 40), or 5000 joules and still the best you can hope to capture is 500 joules or 10%: and these figures are overly optimistic.

Comprende? A second wheel, specifically designed to capture energy might bump it up by a tiny bit, but you will never recapture 30-40% of your spent energy, because the majority of it was spent heating up your chain and bearings, deforming the rubber on your tyres and pushing air out of your way.

 

[Sunder]

Let me rephrase that last bit to be a little clearer.

If regen systems are already 50% efficient, and they are only extending range by 10%, then even by making regen systems 100% efficient, the absolute best you can hope for is 20% range increase. 30-40% is a pipe dream.

 

[latecurtis]

So basically what you are saying is, even if I construct the rims and spokes out of solid copper and the central stationary hub out of the strongest magnet possible to capture every electron available during all forward momentum, and deceleration which seems to be popular; to generate the most current utilizing a highly efficient chain driven motor and human power I am still whistling dixie in the dark. ( 40% aint happening). It is difficult to believe but will take your word for it. However it still deserves further study. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

However it still deserves further study. Thanks.

LC. out.

Sure, and the Pinwheel Gravity Generator deserves further experimentation too. Wouldn't be nice getting free power as well as saving the planet? Fortunately, some of us have more time and naivety than other to achieve those goals.

 

[latecurtis]

My other illustrations were a little vague as to what my intentions are. I am not stating it would work or not. That is for the experts to decide. However if I were to design a prototype for a hub motor or generator that is what I would come up with. The reason beind my decision is simple.

The farther away from the center core the faster the copper windings rotate around the center magnet. Therefore if the rpm of the wheel is determined by human power or a chain driven motor it should be more efficient than some type of regen device built into the hub. Also it would be working 100% of the time the wheel is turning, not just during deceleration.

I have googled and researched this concept thouroghlly and have not seen anything like this desighn. I doubt it has been thought of by anyone else. Again I am not stating that it will work however think it deserves a scientific explaination as to why it would not work if it could be designed to not be really heavy (over 20lbs).

I scoffed at people for thinking that wheels with generators could go on forever and know better. I understand why they cant. I am simply interested in extending the range beyond 10 or 20%. Please let me know. If it wont work for generating electricity than how about a hub motor to power the bike. It should be efficient and utilizing the entire wheel makes perfect sense to me. Thanks. Post when you can.

LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

no

 

[latecurtis]

Very frustrating why the picture wont post. I even changed it to jpeg and still only posts as attachment. This forum needs some work. Very difficult to post video and pictures. It is getting really old. I wish someone would do something about it. :? :x

 

[Ykick]

Pixel size is/was too large to fit on this or most any discussion forum. Here it is resized to "fit" the page and thus display:

 

[DAND214]

The new Wagon Wheel? Horse driven coach. It could power lights and heat in the winter

Dan

 

[Sunder]

Very frustrating why the picture wont post. I even changed it to jpeg and still only posts as attachment. This forum needs some work.

1. All images greater tha 800 pixels wide or 600 long are presented as attachments. Your image is 1200 x 900

2. If you can't figure out the forum rules, it's not the forum that needs work.

With regards to why you haven't seen anything like it, it's because it doesn't work. Almost everyone who is capable of using the intternet is capable of understanding that you don't get energy from nowhere. I don't understand how you can perform the mental gymnastics to say "No, I understand that, but explain to me why my machine which attempts to get free energy won't work."

Riddle me this: Where is your electrical energy coming from? If it's from the motion of the wheel, then you are converting kinetic energy into electrical energy and therefore you MUST be decelerating or you're getting free energy. And since the point of an eBike is to move, you must crank up the motor to account for the losses, or keep pedaling. In the first case, you're increasing the output of the motor greater than the output of the generator, effectively shortening the range of the bike, and in the second case, you'd be pedalling harder than a standard push bike. Nothing wrong with that, but who buys an electric bike that makes their commute harder instead of easier?

Look, I know you're waiting for someone else to comment, because you either don't like or don't understand my replies. Let me be blunt with you. I've already received several PMs asking me why I'm wasting my breath, or something along those lines. So I don't know that you're going to get a better answer. Maybe a clearer one frrom someone who is better at teaching than me, but you definitely won't get a different one.

You can ask more specific questions, or you can keep hoping for a clearer answer. Your call, but unless the questions get more specific and informed, i'll leave this to someone with more patience.

Thanks.

 

[Sunder]

Can't believe I'm doing this. I must be a real sucker for punishment. But I'm at a computer now, and more inclined to show you mathematically why what you propose is impossible.

Consider a rider and bike of exactly 100kg, wanting to travel exactly 10m/s. This is 36km/h.

Phase 1: Acceleration: 1Newtons will accelerate 1kg, 1m/s^2. 10N will accelerate 1kg, 10m/s^2. 1000N will accelerate 100kg, 10m/s^2. Applying an acceleration of 10m/s^2 for one second will give a final velocity of 10m/s, or our desired speed.
Energy Spent = 5k joules.
Kinetic Energy = 0.5 x mass x velocity^2. So right now, the system has a 5000 joules of energy.

Phase 2: Cruising: For a 100kg mountain bike to maintain a speed of 36km/h requires 375watts. 1 watt = 1 joule per second. Let's say we want to ride for 5 minutes, or 300 seconds. 300 x 375 = 112,500 joules spent.
Energy Spent So far = 5k joules to accelerate, and 112,500 joules to cruise = total of 117500 joules
Kinetic Energy in System: Well, our mass hasn't changed. Our velocity hasn't changed. So it's still 0.5 x 100kg x (10)^2, or 5000 joules.

Phase 3: Stopping and regen: Let's just say you want to come to a stop. How much energy is available to be recaptured? You can only recover your kinetic energy. You cannot put the wind back in place. You cannot take back the heat put into the ground from friction, not that radiated away through the bearings. So, you have 5000 joules left to capture.

Total expenditure: 117,500 joules
Total available for recapture = 5000 joules
Total energy recaptured = 5000/117,500 = 0.0425, or 4.25% of the total energy spent.

Get that? In a perfect system, you can only extend your range 4.25%. So how are people even getting 10%+? Hills. Where as the 375w you spent going on a flat is wasted - it goes into the road and into the air and is completely lost to you, almost all the energy you put into going up a hill gives you POTENTIAL ENERGY. When you want to go down the hill, all that energy is still there for you to recapture. That is why (if you even bothered to read the first two posts that I linked of Justin's), regen was more effective in hilly areas.

Your objection number 1: I want to regen during the cruise phase Answer: Okay, but no free energy. If you are putting in 375w in electrical energy, and spending 375w in overcoming friction and wind resistance, then you have no spare energy. If your regen makes say 100 watts at 100% efficiency, after 1 second, your kinetic energy will be 4900 joules. After 10 seconds, it will be 4000 joules. Let's see what your speed would be then:
4000 = 0.5 x 100kg x (?)^2
4000/50 = (?)^2
80 = (?)^2
sqrt(80) = ?
? = 8.94m/s
8.94m/s = 32km/h

By regening 100W absolutely perfectly efficiently, you've decelerated 4km/h in 10 seconds. After 50 seconds, you will be at a complete stop. If you want to maintain the same speed, you will need your motor to put in an extra 100w. That's with a perfect regen, and a perfect everything else. More likely you would put in 200+W in order to gain 100w that can be used again.

Your objection number 2: The hub motor is at the low velocity centre of the wheel, but the regen is at the high velocity outside of the wheel. That's called mechanical advantage. You can either use the energy you have to do less work faster, or more work slower. Total amount of work doesn't change. Just like your 750w motor doesn't magically become a 7500w motor by attaching a larger wheel on it: Your top speed becomes faster, but your torque drops. The same way your generator at the centre of the hub does not have any more power at the edge of the hub. You're trading speed for torque.

Hope this helps you understand basic physics. If not, I'm not sure what else anyone can do for you.

 

[DAND214]

sunder wrote:
Hope this helps you understand basic physics. If not, I'm not sure what else anyone can do for you.

LC please listen to the man, please. If you live and die by DAs numbers Than why wouldn't Sunder work too?
You would possibly get it to work better on the moon or maybe Mars.
All I can say, if it was possible LFP, DOC or maybe Amberwolf would be doing it.

Dan