new eZip motor

[latecurtis]

Dual motor drive system advice ... hmm ...
dual motors
dual drive systems
dual controllers
dual batteries
dual throttles

24" bike has 48V controller with 3 wire throttle.

A 24V lynn controller which uses the same throttle makes it all less complicated. Especially with a 10.0 Lipo pack in the mail.
It has a back rack for 4 SLAs. Put the 10.0 pack up front and the chain and padlock as far forward on the top bar for good weight distribution.

I will need to order a 46T?, spoke sprocket and 24V Lynn controller on the third of May.

Obviously full throttle (35 mph)will damage the SLAs but wont really be necessary except when climbing steep hills or racing. Racing may happen a couple of times Doug, and a couple gas powered bikes around here. Other than that how much discharge on the SLAs at 25mph running dual motors the 500W motor geared for 35 mph as well as the 48V motor.

That is a really advanced physics question.

Also which batteries will discharge quicker. The SLAs or the 10.0 Lipo pack. The SLAs need to go longer as I already test ran the 24" bike and made a few videos. The build was ROCK SOLID (Just like the Currie) and reliable at 48V with four SLAs. I did at least three videos on it I think. I just stopped riding it due to the stairs and the fact I wanted to make it better. That is exactly what I am going to do.

My mind is made up and I am building it next month. I am finishing the Diamond Back this month for two successful builds.
Next month I will be going 35 mph on the 24" bike.

I just want to know what effect on the batteries will be. Which batteries will fail first. It is easy with Lipo as an on board balancer tells the story however in this case I will need the SLAs to outlast the Lipo pack as the bike can make it home with the 48V motor and that has been proven in more than one video. The bike wont make it back of the 24V motor alone over geared by 15 mph.

The way I see it is 48V@ 10AH SLA is doing 2/3 of the work and 24V@ 10AH LIPO is doing 1/3 of the work with a single throttle.
I know that without knowing the exact numbers I would not push the Lipo voltage below 3.8V from 4.18V or full charge without returning home. If I got a portable 48V SLA charger and small portable 6s Lipo charger it could really come in handy.

I would like to see exact numbers though. I would also like to know if gearing the 24V motor for 35mph is the best option or should it be geared less? Also how will the gearing for the front 24V motor effect top speed.

That is the second really advanced physics question.

I cant calculate that but am sure DA can figure it out. Actually DA might be able to answer both advanced physics questions. I sure hope so because I want to order the right size spoke kit for the front 20" wheel. Brakes will already be installed before the spoke kit and controller arrive. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

Since I got 5 grand in the bank I am thinking why not just take the 48V 1,000W motor off the 24" bike and build a 36V 750W 2250 rpm 20" bike and order the 4.5 HP AmpFlow motor and a 65 tooth spoke kit from Kings Custom sprockets for the 24" bike so I can go 50 mph. I am a NOOB and want to go 50 mph with an e bike.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Already recommended "why not" ... many times!

 

[DAND214]

Since I got 5 grand in the bank I am thinking why not just take the 48V 1,000W motor off the 24" bike and build a 36V 750W 2250 rpm 20" bike and order the 4.5 HP AmpFlow motor and a 65 tooth spoke kit from Kings Custom sprockets for the 24" bike so I can go 50 mph. I am a NOOB and want to go 50 mph with an e bike.
LC. out.

WTF, do what you want. No one here can stop you. I'm sure the COPS can and take you money too.

GO FOR IT!!! 50 MPH here we come!

Dan

STUPID?

 

[DrkAngel]

WTF, do what you want. No one here can stop you. I'm sure the COPS can and take you money too.

GO FOR IT!!! 50 MPH here we come!

Dan

STUPID?

Cops ... or hospital co-pays ... or funeral expenses?

 

[DrkAngel]

Cops ... or hospital co-pays ... or funeral expenses?

Make sure to video your test runs!
Contribute ...
let others learn from your mistakes!

 

[DAND214]

Cops ... or hospital co-pays ... or funeral expenses?

That's just between me and you. He will never know.

Dan

 

[DAND214]

Here you go LC.
Give up on that chain crap and build or buy a real bike!
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=79875&p=1178320#p1178320

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

Ok. Could you forget about my last post for now as I was a little drunk and always think about spending mad money and going 50mph on an e bike.

There was I post I did right before that and right after Sunder posted. It was about the 24" build and pertained to that. Actually there was two important questions that are not easy but complicated. DA would be one of the few people knowledgeable enough to find a correct answer that makes sense. Please post when you can. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Well, the "reasonable" question I noticed was whether LiPo or SLA would "fail" 1st?
1st, batteries rarely "fail" unless severely abused, they just fade away.

With a 24V or 48V controller, 22.2V and 44.4V LiPo will survive almost indefinitely ... SLA will fail 1st!
With your multiple voltage controller, LiPo is stripped of its protection ... and given you typical battery treatment ... very liable to be killed 1st!

 

[latecurtis]

I am kind of confused about protection for the Lipo. I screwed up one time since running Lipo about two years including Dan's packs. I only ran a Lipo pack below 3.5V one time with the new pack I posted a few posts ago.

Lipo is rated at ten times the discharge or more than SLA batteries. 20 or 30C compared to 1 or 2C for SLA.

With the balancer on board in plain view the packs are safer than a cheap alarm anyway as it may not even work. If it malfunctions I wont know however my balancer is in plain view 100% of the time. There really is not any excuse for running a pack low unless you are out in the country at night with no flashlight. I could read the balancer by streetlight. I really don't get why I got no credit for the concept.

I don't see how a pack can be damaged unless it is ran below 3.4V per cell. I like to keep them above 3.6V personally. I went about three miles with the 16Ah pack I combined and full voltage was about 4.17V and after the three mile trip the packs were around 3.85V.

Dans packs have not been ran in awhile. They are two 10Ah packs. I combined four 5.0 turnigy to two packs. I ran them at least 100 times and they were a gift. I cant ask any more than that. They lasted about two years. The last time I ran them was with the Schwinn with the 1,000W hub motor Sunder sent. It slowed down and I checked the voltage after about a 3 mile trip like the other day. The voltage on Dans packs were about 3.74V. All cells read within .02V.

Yes there is an LVC on that controller that came with the kit Dan sent however that LVC voltage cutoff is about 36 or 37V.
3.70 * 12 = 44.4V. Dans packs were well above that and closer to 44.5V. How I know that is I ran the Schwinn with the Hub motor with three SLAs many times. When I was breaking in the new SLAs is when the LVC activated and I measured the SLAs and they around 12.7V each and about 38V total but sagging under load to below 37 or 36V as they were new and not broken in yet. I repeated the same trip with them a week later and did not trigger the LVC.

The same exact thing happened with the 24" build and the 48V Lynn controller with the new 10Ah SLAs. the next run they were ok as the voltage on SLAs sag badly before broken in. Maybe also why the LIPO pack went below 3V on some of the cells. It was a virgin pack ran down to 3.8V without being recharged then run again repeatedly a few days later at full throttle with no LVC like you said. It wont happen again. Now that the packs have been run a repeat of that would be about 3.5V per cell all stable plus or minus .01V

I may not be a mathematical genius but have been continually monitoring and measuring these batteries SLA and LIPO and keep track via google maps the distance traveled on all trips. I don't need a speedometer to measure performance as I am riding these bikes so know how they run and how much power the batteries put out. I go up the exact same hills with each new build.

I am looking for any truck at this point so I can move out of here. It looks like there is no hope getting an electric one so I guess I will have to resort to gas if I am ever getting out of here. The answer is yes the 48V controller is a Lynn with proper LVC and a 24V controller for the front motor will be a 24V lynn also with LVC protection. One throttle for both motors and the 24V needs gearing so I need to know if I should gear it for 35 mph also with a 46 tooth spoke sprocket. If the motors are not geared the same it wont run correctly right? Please let me know.

It is an advanced physics question and it has been about 10 years since I took the class and did not finish it as I was full time job and ol lady got hit by car. I am not sure if I would pass it or not however do remember some factors used to solve such a problem.

negative forces. all converted into newtons of force
friction of ground
wind resistance
load or weight

positive forces. measured in newtons of force
motor one
motor two

A complex equation including pie or imaginary numbers x and Y axis ect...(basically unsolvable without a scientific calculator) but after sitting in the math lab an hour or two it all boils down to plug and chug.

Newtons of force is measured over a specific time frame for total energy for motor one and motor two.

Then the batteries for each motor have to be measured in total joules of energy I believe and one or the other units of measurement need to be converted to get a logical answer.

or you can just ask DA. :lol: :lol:


LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

A complex equation including pie or imaginary numbers x and Y axis ect...(basically unsolvable without a scientific calculator) but after sitting in the math lab an hour or two it all boils down to plug and chug.

If it's apple pie with cinnamon and ice cream, I'm in. I'm imagining how many serves I can eat now. Is that an imaginary number?

If that's not what you're talking about, you seem obsessed with pi. And what's with the imaginary numbers? Those are for the square root of negative numbers, and is really only used in differential equations.

To be honest, I read your post three times, and I'm still not sure what the question is.

But, if I can guess, I think you are trying to ask what happens if you are trying to run the motors at different speeds via different gearing, as long as they are reasonably close, you will simply get a different load on each controller. So while the throttle might be 50% on both, you might be running at an efficient 90% of top rated speed on one, and an inefficient 50% of top speed on the other.

 

[latecurtis]

Ok so I will simplify the equation.

If the rear motor is overgeared for 35 mph and should be geared for 30 mph at what speed should I gear the front motor and how will it effect top speed and performance of the bike?

rear motor = 1,000W

front motor = 500W

?

A) 60T spoke sprocket gear it for 27mph. top speed = 31 mph good on hills.

B) 46T spoke sprocket geared for 35 mph. top speed = 35 mph ok on hills.

 

[Sunder]

A) 60T spoke sprocket gear it for 27mph. top speed = 31 mph good on hills.

B) 46T spoke sprocket geared for 35 mph. top speed = 35 mph ok on hills.

A) Will send current back down the controller over 27mph, and put more load on the other motor

B) Will increase your top speed mildly, but they'll then be both inefficient.

 

[DrkAngel]

LC ...

If you run dual motors, geared differently, the motor geared for lower speed will contribute nothing after it top speed is attained.
If you try to exceed the top speed of the slower speed motor, it will begin acting as a braking device, making the eBike slower than if it only had the single faster geared motor!
Similarly, at lower more efficient speeds with partial throttle one motor might be dragging down the other - reducing output power, efficiency, speed, motor life etc.

What you think of as "Advanced Physics" "advanced math" is just basic simple physics!

A simple, tailored, analogy ...
You and a fat-slow friend are out of beer. (Either of you could be the fat-slow one)
Slow person has the debit card and won't trust the other with his pin number!
Slow person has top speed of 2mph, faster has 5mph top speed.
To reach the beer store before it closes, you need a 3mph average speed! ... oh no!
Frantically, the faster person has to drag, or push, the slower person up to the necessary 3mph.
The slower person still has to output his full (throttle) effort, combined with the faster persons full (throttle) effort, together they might maintain 3mph ... hurrah!
More beer attained ... tragedy averted?

 

[DAND214]

LC ...

If you run dual motors, geared differently, the motor geared for lower speed will contribute nothing after it top speed is attained.
If you try to exceed the top speed of the slower speed motor, it will begin acting as a braking device, making the eBike slower than if it only had the single faster geared motor!
Similarly, at lower more efficient speeds with partial throttle one motor might be dragging down the other reducing output power, efficiency, speed, motor life etc.

What you think of as "Advanced Physics" "advanced math" is just basic simple physics!
A simple, tailored, analogy ...

You and a fat-slow friend are out of beer. (Either of you could be the fat-slow one)
Slow person has the debit card and won't trust the other with pin number!
Slow person has top speed of 2mph, faster has 5mph top speed.
To reach the beer store before it closes, you need a 3mph average speed! ... oh no!
Frantically, the faster person has to drag, or push, the slower person up to the necessary 3mph.
The slower person still has to output his full (throttle) effort, combined with the faster persons full (throttle) effort, together they might maintain 3mph ... hurrah!
More beer attained ... tragedy averted?

+++ A true beer story. Can't be any simpler.

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

B) Will increase your top speed mildly, but they'll then be both inefficient.

Ok it makes sense to gear both motors for 35mph as they will work together. That was my first guess.

With just the rear 1,000W motor the bike ran good except for hills. Over geared by 5 mph.

Obviously if I gear the front motor for 35 mph it will be over geared by 15 mph and would not run good at all by itself.

My question is if I gear both motors for 35 mph will it do better on the hills than with the single motor on the back and will the bike reach 35 mph.

If the answer is no then I will not want to put the motor on the bike. It would serve little or no useful purpose.

The way I see it my 24V set up with 15Ah of Lipo is a close to perfect set up. No problem up hills as I found out going downtown. Just a little pedal assist on the steep part for a few seconds but would have made on its own.

However this does not quench my need for speed though. A 65 tooth spoke kit would make sense from Kings custom sprockets and solve the problem for the 24" bike and I could go about 29 mph. However there is another issue I will have to deal with. Basically the same issue I will need to deal with riding the new 850W hub motor that is on the Diamond Back.

48V batteries!! Currently I have a 16 AH 22V pack which I am NOT splitting up EVER. Dan's packs might run a couple miles before slowing down and will not work long at full throttle with the 850W hub motor and especially with the 1,000W motor on the 24" bike. The alternative is 48V@10AH SLA. That would be SLA murder with the 24" bike and severally limit their lifespan with the 850W motor also.

I got that 10.0 6s pack ordered but until I receive it and actually charge and run it I will not know if it is worth ordering a second one for 44V. Basically I wont have good 44V power for awhile either way as if the 10.0 Lipo pack is shit it will just be used for 22V backup for the 16Ah pack. That means 44V for full throttle usage is at least one or two months away.

I am thinking about taking the wheel with the 56T sprocket off the 24" bike and building a second 20" bike with a front motor similar to the one I just did except I will run it at 36VSLA at 20AH 750W 2250 rpm and 24mph. I ran the same configuration before and it performed well with greater performance up hills and noticeable acceleration and top speed over the 533W 24V build I recently accomplished.

The motor which is on the 24" bike is not exactly perfect either. The motor was apart once as the positive motor wire pulled out and it is not even soldered but twisted on the connector inside the motor. putting it back together also scraped up the brushes a little as the metal is soft on them. It should work ok for awhile at 36V though.

 

[DrkAngel]

Tisn't just how far you go ...
bu talso how go you far ...
that determines battery discharge.

 

[latecurtis]

I got the solution.

If I take the 48V motor off the 24" bike build another 20" bike and run it at 36V 2250rpm and 750W with the 56T wheel and 11T motor I get 26mph.

Later on this summer I get two 48V 1,000W motors and an identical 48V controller and two 60T spoke kits and 11T motor sprockets and at 3750 rpm gearing will be for 40 mph.

The question is Will it go 40 mph with 2,000W total or will it still be over geared ?

If it still will be over geared then I should just save my money and go with my original plan and put the 500W motor on the front for 1500W and 35 mph. The 500W motor can use the 22V 16 AH pack and when I order a second 10.0 6s pack I can run the back motor at 44V.

 

[DrkAngel]

Use either of the 2 gear ratio calculators I listed for you!

 

[latecurtis]

I got is. Problem solved.

The 24" bike with the 1,000W motor is geared for 35 mph with the 56T spoke and 11T motor sprocket.

Since I want to build another 20" bike at 36V anyway I can take the 56T wheel and motor off the 24" bike to build it and the controller is in the mail. 36V@20AH SLA I already own. 26 mph will be the result about 7 mph faster than the current 24" build.

Later on I can get another 1,000W motor but order a 60T spoke kit instead of a 56T. This will lower the gearing from 35 mph to 32.5 mph. It don't seem like a lot but am willing to bet it will go 30mph and be a little better up the hills. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DAND214]

I am so confused :? :?
Have you run the DiamondBack yet?
Other than the Schwinn, what is ride able?
You are way over my head with the do this do that and this and that, WTF. Slow down and do it right the first time.
I still think you need to do as DA said 50+ pages ago.
Put the SLAs and motor or other weights on your little 20" and find a nice tall steep hill and ride it down. If you don't shit in your pants go for it. I just can't see riding anything over 15 or maybe less on a 20" piece of junk. Junk is what you found isn't it. I'm not trying to be a AH just trying to get you to see what you are doing. Other way to see how fast 35+ is hitch on somebodies car down you street on the POS you are planning it with.

Let me tell you, 35+ mph even on my decent 26" MTB with full suspension, is too fast for decent bicycle parts.

So you say you have run the LiPo's 100 times, When and on What? You need to figure out how to use the Mega charger to test the packs and see if they are gone. The short trips you seem to use any battery on is nothing. I went 16 miles to day and used 5 ah on my slow bike only 30 top speed but I don't normally exceed 24 and that is on a frontage road that is next to a 50mph road. I averaged 12mph, which is the speed limit on the bike paths around here. When I see your cell voltages, I just can't believe you are using that much in such a short distance. Oh, cell voltages were right at 3.91 after the ride, not 3.7 or less like I have seen on your posts in short trips. I just can't understand why. Only reason has to be the inefficiency how over geared brushed motors are.

Are you gone Brushless? As I read your LYNN controller, I don't believe he does brushed controllers.

Dan

 

[latecurtis]

s the Hub Motor Turns and the Lipo Fire Burns. Torque arms.

1000W 48 V DC Yiyun LB57 Speed Controller box f brush electric motor
( 151878208794 )
Add note
ITEM PRICE:
US $31.00

Yiyun not Lynn. I mixed it up.

As you can see the torque arms are in but I really don't remember how to install them. I got one on the Schwinn though so I can look at it but not sure if I did that right either. I also picked up the back rack for the Diamondback new for $15 at Wall-Mart last night. It will need to be reinforced though if I am running four SLAs.

I am kind of confused also, however it would be simpler to split up the SLAs and use four for the Diamondback and two for 24V back up on the other bike. Then if the 10.0 6s pack shows up and is good I can order a second for 44V.

The disadvantage is splitting the SLAs up will shorten their life span. As soon as I go up a hill with the 850W Hub motor on the Diamond Back I will be abusing the SLAs.

I also ordered the proper mounting kit for the 80T #25 sprocket to bolt to a freewheel. I can build a second 20" bike with the 500W motor on the front geared for 20 mph.

If the SLAs are not totally shot running them with the Diamondback at 48V@10AH I can still build a 36V 26 mph 20" bike with the 56T spoke sprocket on the 20" wheel from the 24" bike and replace it with a 60T for 32.5 mph gearing on the 24" bike.

That is the plan I guess. four 20" bikes and a 24" bike with 20" wheels.

1. The current 20" black bike. 533W@24V geared for 20 mph.

2. A second 20" bike. 500W geared for 20 mph.

3. The Diamond Back with a 48V hub motor geared for 16mph possibly.

4. A 20" bike. 36V and 750W geared for 26 mph.

5. The 24" bike with 20" wheels 48V 1,000W geared for 32.5 mph.

Thanks. Please post when you can. LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

Blew a fuse coming back from downtown going up the hill. Other than that it is still running good. I wonder about the variable controller with the pot. Something smelled hot and the blown fuse was really hot. I think the variable controller with the pot may be the weak link as the motor was not hot. It is rated at 2,000W though so should not fail with an 800W 36V motor running at 24V and 533W. When I replaced the fuse with tape it got so hot the tape slipped off of it. The replacement fuse was an 80 amp fuse. I could not get it taped back on so had to finish the trip home without a fuse.

I never had that issue with anything at 36V and 750W. I need to get a 36V controller and run that 1,000W motor at 36V.

My question is will the SLAs work for 48V with the Diamond Back for downtown runs or will they die quick going up the hills. If the hub motor in the Diamond Back is geared for 16 mph will 48V@10AH SLAs work without damaging them?

I can use the other bike for Wall-Mart runs as there is not really any steep hills. Please let me know. Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

As I have pointed out ... numerous times! ...
Motor output watts is not a measure of battery to controller input amps!

Amps is the only factor in a fuse blowing.
1V 40A (40w) or 60V 40A (2400w) can both blow a 40A fuse.
Errr ... Amps is the only factor in a fuse blowing, if properly connected.

Fuses "blow" based on heat!
Given your preference for twisting wires and tape ...
I have the, I think, reasonable fear that you were too lazy to connect the fuse with properly soldered wires or connectors! ... Hmmm?
Electricity, flowing through a poor connection, arcs, producing extreme heat ...
Ever heard of arc welding ?

and\or
40A continuous (30 seconds +) through less than 12ga wire will produce notable (dangerous?!) heat!