New Puma Controller Lid Off

[Jozzer]

i believe Mark has rights on US sales too, contact him for more details.
Thats Mark Higgin, teamhybrid@btinternet.com .
Tell him endless-sphere sent you and you may get a free cookie :lol:

 

[fechter]

Some interesting info, the 72v version does indeed have 9 irf4310 FETs 3 per channel)

I guess that they use 2 FETs for the PWM side and 1 FET for the non-PWM side on each phase.
Using 2 FETs for the PWM side could reduce the PWM switching loss which is at high frequency (say 17kHz or so).

After messing around with one of these controllers for a while, it dawned on me why they use 9 FETs. If you look at the datasheet for the MC33033 control chip:
http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MC33033-D.PDF

it indicates that at any given time, there are two high side switches on against a single low side. By using singles on the high side and pairs on the low side, the current through the FETs during the on state will be roughly equal. I'm not sure about circulating currents.

 

[fechter]

I decided the controller needed a little upgrading to meet my specs.

First off, the copper on the main battery buss traces seemed awfully thin, so I stripped a piece of RG/59 coaxial cable to remove the copper braid. The braid was soldered along the buss traces on both sides of the board.
View attachment 2



After tacking the braid in place, I added the biggest capacitors I had lying around to the buss in Crystalyte fasion. The caps are 100v, 47uf each. The existing main capacitor was too far away from the buss and the copper too small to do a really good job of absorbing the spikes.

After re-attaching the FET screws to the heatsink, the new caps were tacked down with silicone glue to prevent vibration.

 

[fechter]

I figure with 4310's , it should be good for around 50A. I have no idea what the current limit is presently. I'll have to actually run it to find out since my bench supply does not go high enough.

 

[deecanio]

Hi Fetchter,

any more news on this controller ??
also have you managed to get any testing done on the puma?? first impressions??
i know you said a while back that you hadn't had time to look at it properly so no biggy if you haven't - just curious as to what you think.

Cheers


D

 

[Jozzer]

THe current limit is supposed to be 35A at 36v, and 20A at 72. I'd like to know how it decides this if you can work it out! The one I still have working here does 45A happily enough. Are you leaving the original cap in there? I took miue out fearing it would blow. Its only rated 80v, and full pack voltage on the A123's is 88v..

I've done the same thing to your trolly Andy, got the caps here now, you'll have it back next week Sorry for the wait, its been hectic as hell here!

 

[fechter]

I left the stock main cap in there, as I'm not planning to exceed 80v.

I haven't had a chance to run anything yet. My Puma motor is waiting for spokes and the controller went to Mr. Electric, who is going to try it with a Crystalyte 5303 motor. Hope to have results soon, but he also needs to do a spoke job first.

I'm working on building the battery at the same time. I hope to get it running around the time the weather gets nice enough to use it.

Interesting that the current limit is supposed to be a function of battery voltage. I did not reverse engineer that part of the circuit enough to see if that was the case. I guess that would be a good feature if it prevented failures. The main cap thing was really underdesigned and would allow some nasty spikes to reach the FETs.

 

[deecanio]

looking forward to seeing what you find once the weather picks up.
Cheers Joz, having a spare trolley will be invaluable for a noob like me, gives me backup if the xlyte has any probs - don't worry about the time mate i'm just grateful that you've upped the power for me.
I'm hoping richard will find the limits of the puma then tell us how to improve it!!! for me it wins hands down on weight on torque and if it could run around 4kw that would be totally awesome!!!
Shame Fetch isn't in the uk - we could get Dave to lace that wheel up for him pronto!!


Cheers


D

 

[EcoForumZ]

Did anybody figure out the correct wiring? I have read through the whole thread and there is lots of talk about trying different methods of wiring but no post on the correct results. I have a 35a BMC controller and a BMC hub motor I am trying to get wired up but am having no luck so far. The color of the wires on both sides match up red, black, green, yellow, and blue. I matched them up color for color but no luck.

any ideas?

 

[Johnbear]

Is this what you were looking for?

Throttle wiring is
Motor red to red,
motor yellow to black,
and motor green to white.
phase and halls are colour to colour.
Seems very smooth, no vibration or jerkiness (there has been in the past with some other controllers).
Ran it up at 70v too (max on my PSU), all good.
The one thing that perhaps hasn't been done yet by me OR knoxie, is to try this controller on the older revisions of the motor, and I havn't tried this new revision motor with an x'lyte motor yet, so we don't know for sure if they have changed the phase colours on the motorside or the controller side!
Paul, have you tried the new motor with an x'lyte troller yet? (save me some work if you have).

Before I can run it on the road I need to sort batteries in the bike, so maybe late tomorrow for a road test...

 

[EcoForumZ]

Is this what you were looking for?

Throttle wiring is
Motor red to red,
motor yellow to black,
and motor green to white.
phase and halls are colour to colour.
Seems very smooth, no vibration or jerkiness (there has been in the past with some other controllers).
Ran it up at 70v too (max on my PSU), all good.
The one thing that perhaps hasn't been done yet by me OR knoxie, is to try this controller on the older revisions of the motor, and I havn't tried this new revision motor with an x'lyte motor yet, so we don't know for sure if they have changed the phase colours on the motorside or the controller side!
Paul, have you tried the new motor with an x'lyte troller yet? (save me some work if you have).

Before I can run it on the road I need to sort batteries in the bike, so maybe late tomorrow for a road test...

Nope don't have those colors yellow goint to throttle or coming from it. The strange thing is it sounds like the motor is running in reverse.

Below is how I have the wires now. The motor sounds like it is running in reverse or in neutral.

3 large wires from motor
Green - Green
Blue - Blue
Yellow - Yellow

5 small wires from motor
BrownishRed - Red
Black - Black
Green - Green
Yellow - Yellow
Blue - Blue

Wires from controller to throttle

Red - Red
Black - Black
Green - White

 

[deecanio]

Hi EcoForumZ,

i dont know much (although i should as i've had the xlyte and bmc controller with a bmc puma ) but i do know that i was having major issues connecting up initially and when you say "it sounds like the motor is running in neutral" what do you mean?
i had an issue where my wiring was correct but nothing movement wise from the wheel? but i could hear what sounded like a small motor which responded to throttle ?? if so i think joz told me to check the xlyte keyswitch for forward/reverse? i know your looking at the bmc controller but thought it just may trigger some thought from others to help solve?


Cheers


D

 

[fechter]

If you hear the motor running but the hub isn't moving, then it's going in reverse. The freewheel keeps the wheel from moving.

My Puma motor has oddball wiring, so the colors that work for me may not be the same as the current production ones.

Here's what I had:
Motor Controller
Phase wires:
Blue Green
Green Blue
Yellow Yellow

Hall sensors:
Blue Yellow
Green Green
Yellow Blue
Red Red
Black Black

 

[EcoForumZ]

If you hear the motor running but the hub isn't moving, then it's going in reverse. The freewheel keeps the wheel from moving.

My Puma motor has oddball wiring, so the colors that work for me may not be the same as the current production ones.

Here's what I had:
Motor Controller
Phase wires:
Blue Green
Green Blue
Yellow Yellow

Hall sensors:
Blue Yellow
Green Green
Yellow Blue
Red Red
Black Black

That works! Thanks so much! To late for a ride tonight but I will take The Widow Maker out for a spin tomorrow night.

 

[deecanio]

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!! nothing so nice as a spinning wheel after lots of grief

Nice one fechter
Eco - dont forget to print that off now and keep in a very safe place !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
that'll be you out and riding tomorrow then


Cheers


D

 

[geoff57]

hi all
has mark got any of these controllers, sound like they would be a better option for me for my kmx viper build with a mk2 puma with 72v 2ah lifepo "duct tape" batteries than to convert one of my analog x'tlytes to 4310s.
what sort of price do they go for, for that matter as I bought the 4310s before I found out about this controller does anyone know how they compare at high speeds on a mk2 puma at 72v.

 

[Jozzer]

Which controller do you mean Geoff? The Puma controllers that the thread is about are still not reliable. I hear they are going for another prototypef or us to test, but I wont be holding my breath! (its like 6 months between revisions!)

EcoForumz was asking about a BMC controller, but I don't know which he has. One of the BMC controllers I saw was a 48v one from Ananda, that worked very well and was very well put together, but I understand Ananda dont sell this model anymore. Another BMC controller was a small 36v 25A, that suffered speed issues..

Mark is waiting for some 36-48v controller form ecrazyman I believe, and has a limited number of X'lyte controllrs fitted with 4310's ready now too.

Steve

 

[geoff57]

Which controller do you mean Geoff? The Puma controllers that the thread is about are still not reliable. I hear they are going for another prototypef or us to test, but I wont be holding my breath! (its like 6 months between revisions!)

EcoForumz was asking about a BMC controller, but I don't know which he has. One of the BMC controllers I saw was a 48v one from Ananda, that worked very well and was very well put together, but I understand Ananda dont sell this model anymore. Another BMC controller was a small 36v 25A, that suffered speed issues..

Mark is waiting for some 36-48v controller form ecrazyman I believe, and has a limited number of X'lyte controllrs fitted with 4310's ready now too.

Steve

the one the thread was about ,I was in contact with ecrazyman and knuckles from near the start of the the new controllers from ecrazyman but found the would not work with pumas, read about a fix that has been done so that they can be used at 36v to 48v maybe though I am not sure 60v but not 72+ so I think my best option is to stay with my x'tlyte 35/40a analog controllers, I have 3 one works 2 have blown fets on and I have identifyed which fets are blow I have bought replacment fets and will fit them test the controllers tosee if anything else was blow the boards show no sign of dammage,they both have 160v caps so once they are working one will be going back under the soldering iron to get an upgrade to 4310's, I bought a set off justin a while back but have been holding back on using them.
I think the kmx viper with a mk2 puma with metal gears with a x'tlyte 35/40a controller with 4310's and a cycle analyst, with a 72v 20ah lifepo"duct tape",a custom designed bucket seat and well and truly beefed up dropouts with twin torque arms should give me a ride to be proud of. keep an eye on the kmx viper build thread.