Steveo's x5306 build @ 144v (Caution High Voltage thread!)

[steveo]

Hey Everyone,

For all of you that have followed my previous threads, know that i'm a torque junkie, and i like not just a little but .. more power then i think i can handle. Since my first ebike buid, i've come along way in understanding every componet of the ebike. like, What it takes to make the proper battery pack, Build a strong robust controller, selecting the propery motor, and making sure it all works together perfectly.

My goal in this project:

I wanted to obtain the fastest accelerating ebike the forums has ever seen while being able to obtain a maxium speed of about 70-80 km/h, no i'm not trying to get any speed records out of this bike, DOC! LOL

motor
-Lets start with motor first, I went with a very low count motor (x5306) to accieve the ultimate efficency of any motor avaliable on the market, while achieving the absoloute best performace (without going into an x6 series motor)
-I also wanted a lowest current draw to allow componets like the motor winding, controller, to keep cool without having to drill holes in the side covers, I also wanted to have absoloutly the most minimal voltage sag possible.

controller
-I was very happy to be the first member on the forums to aquire a prototype 24 mosfet controller!. I've actually been waiting for this controller to be released for a very long time!. For those of you that recall my previous posts where i've tested higher voltage on to-220 mosfet controllers (12 mosfets) @ 133v, where i did have succes getting the controller to work, however when te controller ran to warm, the plasma fire occured destroying the controller. With the new 24 mosfet controllers i've aquire, I've know got alot more reliability going into these controllers, and am very confident that i should have great success running this controller on my new bike. The target is 144v @ about 50-100 amps depending on how the controller runs tempature wise, and depending on the acceleration ( just enough not to wheelie to hard off a launch )

battery pack
-I've decided to stay with a123 batteries for my new 44s 4p battery. These to me are still the best cells on the market even after 4 years. I've seen cells which have been overcharged, underdischarged, abused and a123 still come though, to a certain extent of course! I will assemble the batteries using sheets of .032" copper to solder the battery tabs to. This is identical to how doctorbass build is drag racing battery pack. Building your own battery pack does require alot of time when you are re-using cells. My entire pack will be matched by MAH & RESISTANCE to ensure the most capasity possible out of a 4p pack & lowest resistance possible and to ensure ultimate power output. I really can not see my batter pack seeing peaks over 100amps because at that current i'll most likley flip the bike over with the amount of torque. (I ran my x5306 for a short period of time on 88.8v of lipo ... and at only 50-60 amps could lift the front end easily). I will try to put majority of the batter pack weight on the front to prevent this from happening, and keeping the performance to the ground.

I will post photos as i go, I hope you enjoy watching my build progress.

Here is the link the the 24 mosfet thread:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14798

Photos of the 24 Mosfet controller build

video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pjX1e3NiWvo

The New Bike frame with front & rear 203mm rotors

oh .. and this is my new ride .. full photo... i've kept thngs in the dark till i get the new controller & battery done ..

Photo update 2010/01/19

just some new photos of everything, I love my 1800 lumes 3.3v led lamp .. it is so awsome!

The 144 Monster Near completion...

The Torque arms, These babies have held up since day once, and i've already tested them on this bike frame with not problems, The bike frame itself has 1/4" steel drop outs. add another 1/4" with my steel torque arms!!

-steveo

 

[amberwolf]

144v @ 100A = 14,400W

Not only might the bike flip, but you might melt motor-like stuff quickly trying to sustain such power levels.

News commentator: Yes, firefighters are having trouble extinguishing the blaze; the tires reignite constantly from the glowing mass that appears to have been a bicycle wheel at one time.... At first we thought it had been built with nichrome heater wires but then we realized they had been spokes.... :lol:

 

[tostino]

but heating is determined by amps. If you have 100a at 50v, and 100a at 100v, it will produce the same heat if you have it running through the same wires. So if you want to reduce heat, higher voltage and lower amperage are your friends.

Or to increase power with the same heat, increase voltage and keep the amps the same (by changing the gear ratio in some way)

 

[Microbatman]

Steveo
Nice, loving the build, nice to see someone going for the torque acceleration.
Great work going into uncharted territory. True pioneer in the Ebike world.

Couple of questions.

Is X5306 from the factory or did you wind it yourself?

Is this the new style rear wheel Crystalyte that has a built in disc brake adapter right from the factory or a custom disc brake setup that you had machined or built?

How well did the caliper fit? Any clearance issues between side of hub and disc braking surface. What type/brand/model make of caliper are you using?

Cant wait to hear more. This is my new favorite thread.

Spokes What type of spokes are you running? What brand of rim?

 

[Lyen]

Nice build Steveo! I think we should start a poll to let people vote who will be the the "King Of Torque" of the year (hub motors only BTW). LOL

1. Steveo
2. Doctorbass
3. Methods
4. liveforphysics
5. who else?

 

[steveo]

Steveo
Nice, loving the build, nice to see someone going for the torque acceleration.
Great work going into uncharted territory. True pioneer in the Ebike world.

Couple of questions.

Is X5306 from the factory or did you wind it yourself?

Is this the new style rear wheel Crystalyte that has a built in disc brake adapter right from the factory or a custom disc brake setup that you had machined or built?

How well did the caliper fit? Any clearance issues between side of hub and disc braking surface. What type/brand/model make of caliper are you using?

Cant wait to hear more. This is my new favorite thread.

Spokes What type of spokes are you running? What brand of rim?

Hey Microbatman,

-the x5306 is the latest motor released from crystalite, i haven't seen any retailers carry this specific version of the motor, maybe because of the really low winding count.. who knows... but its definatly the most powerfull & efficent one.

-this x5306 (new gen version) has the slimmer casing, and the disc bolts directly to the side cover.

-the disc fit perfectly, this new gen motor gives you more room to play with between the disc & side cover!.. i could use any caliper as long as i have the propery hardware to mount it .. tons of room compared to my old norco vps buzz bike frame.

-I'm running 12 gauge spokes, laced with the niples of the spokes facing the inside of the hub motor ( makes for a stronger wheel ); I'm using a triple wall sun bfr rim. extremly strong.!

-steveo

 

[RPA]

Awesome build! Cant wait to hear how it turns out. These are the kind of ebikes I'm interested in. High voltage and current. Right now I'm making a 93 volt 100 amp battery to power a 5304 motor.

 

[etard]

Steveo,
Very nice build ( I love when all the winter projects start popping up)!

Your build is well thought out and should execute your desired mission spactucularly!

BUT, have you thought about upgrading your bike? I mean you have all top of the line stuff, except for the actual bike. At least give it a paint job, maybe just paint the swingarm black. Can you debadge it? That's all I'm saying :wink:

What are you doing for torque arms anyway?

 

[steveo]

Steveo,
Very nice build ( I love when all the winter projects start popping up)!

Your build is well thought out and should execute your desired mission spactucularly!

BUT, have you thought about upgrading your bike? I mean you have all top of the line stuff, except for the actual bike. At least give it a paint job, maybe just paint the swingarm black. Can you debadge it? That's all I'm saying :wink:

What are you doing for torque arms anyway?

Hey,

this was a free bike frame, it was actually brand new, i transfered some of the parts of my old norco vps buzz frame that was falling apart on me .. i'm not worried about the stickers.. they will all be covered by the battery pack hahah..

I've posted photos in the first post reflecting the torque arms since i've had a few people ask me, they are the steel mounting portion from training wheels!

-steveo

 

[adrian_sm]

Lovin' the lights. Tell us more.

 

[Mark_A_W]

I've posted photos in the first post reflecting the torque arms since i've had a few people ask me, they are the steel mounting portion from training wheels!

-steveo

And they scare the crap out of me.

Your going to have, what, 150+Nm going through them?

I'd be welding something beefy to the swingarm.

 

[dennis]

nice build ...you may need a frame from http://www.stealthelectricbikes.com.au/stealth_bomber.html ...their set up will do 80km/hr with no pedaling on a 26 inch rim with less torque...your controller would be a great upgrade to their bike

 

[grindz145]

24 Fet Controller?!? wtf. That is outstanding. If the voltages get much higher we will be in IGBT territory, and then we caave some fun

and I thought that 18 Fet controller was redonkulous...

Those lights are absolutely sick too, I plan to build some quite similar to that eventually myself.

Major Props Steveo

 

[will_newton]

Torque arms from cheapie steel mounted with hose clamps? It doesn't seem like the best place to skimp on quality. Nonetheless, it does look like the disc brake mounting bolt will stop the one on the left from turning and the right one will spin until it hits the derailleur. It may not be purty, but I suspect it gets the job done.

I am interested in the performance of the 5306, not many folks have them and even fewer have posted any info about them. Keep up the good work!

I've posted photos in the first post reflecting the torque arms since i've had a few people ask me, they are the steel mounting portion from training wheels!

-steveo

And they scare the crap out of me.

Your going to have, what, 150+Nm going through them?

I'd be welding something beefy to the swingarm.

 

[steveo]

Torque arms from cheapie steel mounted with hose clamps? It doesn't seem like the best place to skimp on quality. Nonetheless, it does look like the disc brake mounting bolt will stop the one on the left from turning and the right one will spin until it hits the derailleur. It may not be purty, but I suspect it gets the job done.

I am interested in the performance of the 5306, not many folks have them and even fewer have posted any info about them. Keep up the good work!

I've posted photos in the first post reflecting the torque arms since i've had a few people ask me, they are the steel mounting portion from training wheels!

-steveo

And they scare the crap out of me.

Your going to have, what, 150+Nm going through them?

I'd be welding something beefy to the swingarm.

Hey,

comon man don't diss the hose clamps LOL .. Well i could put once bolt through each of the torque arms to the frame to provide even more strengh!

but i've never had an issue with the hose clams .. they are stronger then you think!

-steveo

 

[Doctorbass]

but heating is determined by amps. If you have 100a at 50v, and 100a at 100v, it will produce the same heat if you have it running through the same wires. So if you want to reduce heat, higher voltage and lower amperage are your friends.

Or to increase power with the same heat, increase voltage and keep the amps the same (by changing the gear ratio in some way)

Tostino, what create heat is Power... A lightbulb of 100W at 120V will produce the same heat than a 100W lightbulb at 12V

What make difference about heat loss is more about the cables used to link every parts of the system.

In this case, using higher volt mean less heat loss in the cable.. but if a motor is 90% efficient, on have a winding for 100V and deliver 1000W and the other have a winding for 1000V and 1000W, both will still have 90% efficienct, that mean 100W heat loss for both. :wink:

 

[Doctorbass]

BTW, Very nice project Steveo!! I would appreciate meeting you this summer like i did with Bikeraider and we rided our ebikes for 100+ km enjoying it.

For perfect acceleration you need the best Watts per kg

the battery voltage sag is also important.. and at 100A these 4p cells will have each 25A and theri corresponding voltage sag.

You should calculate ( like I did) the best ratio of cell in parallel compared to the weight added to the hole system...

ex adding 1p is 70g x 44 = 3.8kg added to the entire system.. but the voltage sag will be reduced by a certain factor wich might give you more acceleration ewventhough you add this 3.8kg... you see what i mean?.. and there is one conditino where adding more cell in parallel will begin to reduce to bring more acceleration. You need to find the best ratio

I did some calculation in excel.. let me try to fing that in my killabicycle project thread..

Doc

 

[steveo]

BTW, Very nice project Steveo!! I would appreciate meeting you this summer like i did with Bikeraider and we rided our ebikes for 100+ km enjoying it.

For perfect acceleration you need the best Watts per kg

the battery voltage sag is also important.. and at 100A these 4p cells will have each 25A and theri corresponding voltage sag.

You should calculate ( like I did) the best ratio of cell in parallel compared to the weight added to the hole system...

ex adding 1p is 70g x 44 = 3.8kg added to the entire system.. but the voltage sag will be reduced by a certain factor wich might give you more acceleration ewventhough you add this 3.8kg... you see what i mean?.. and there is one conditino where adding more cell in parallel will begin to reduce to bring more acceleration. You need to find the best ratio

I did some calculation in excel.. let me try to fing that in my killabicycle project thread..

Doc

Hey Doc,

I am considering doing 75 amps, you would be very surprised of the power at 75amps @ 144v! ... i ran 133v @ 50 amps .. and it was awsome on a 24" 5304 motor ..

i could imagine that a 20" 5306 @ 75amps - 144v is more power then i would ever need..

when i ran 88.8v of lipo, i found it really hard to peak at 75amps without a wheelie, the only issue was not enough speed!!

-steveo

 

[steveo]

Hey guys,

just for the heck of it, i though i would post a high voltage logo that i could use on my bike here .. you think it does the job?

-steveo

 

[amberwolf]

Sure, but I still like the one I posted in another thread sometime back, that said something to the order of "Danger--high voltage. Not only will this kill you, but it will hurt the whole time you are dying".

 

[TylerDurden]

?

 

[steveo]

?

sweeetttt!!!

 

[Microbatman]

Steveo

Have ya had a chance to ride it outside yet?

Waiting to here some feedback or vid from the new build.

 

[steveo]

Steveo

Have ya had a chance to ride it outside yet?

Waiting to here some feedback or vid from the new build.

I'm assembling the pack this weekend .. I should have some shrink wrap by the following weekend .. so .. 2-3 weeks ...

The nominal voltage of the pack will be 145.2v....in 4p 44s approx 8.8ah or in parrallel .. 8p 22s 72.6v ... around 17ah+

-steveo

 

[steveo]

Hey everyone,

Let me know your thoughts about my charging method.. i draw a photo of the balance tabs .. and how i will parrallel the 2 strands of 22s & all the balance tabs to charge the pack in 22s 8p

-steveo