Tesla Model 3

[speedmd]

STILL no word on how hard it'll be to pedal...

Does not look hard at all. Sold hundreds of thousands of them and no one knows much about it. Looks to be very easy to pedal.

 

[Wheazel]

Put your money where your mouth is.

I already did.

I bought a Volt.

A waste of money to support a corrupt corporation like GM while still being stuck burring gasoline great choice

I think this is a highly flawed statement. Even though chevy volts or opel amperas aren't full electric, they often result in at least 90% of all trips being all electric.
I would say its an excellent choice compared to alternatives. What other alternative are there today with the same functionality in the same price range?
None. With a volt or ampera you can go to work every day using green electricity, but you also have the possibility for longer trips on gasoline in the few cases you need it.
I would not call transferring 90%+ of the trips to electric a waste of money when the alternative would be a regular ice car.

 

[Arlo1]

I would not call transferring 90%+ of the trips to electric a waste of money when the alternative would be a regular ice car.

If they were to remove that expensive gasoline engine fuel tank and all the stuff that goes with it and take the cost of those items and use it to make a bigger battery they would have had a car that travels ~200km/ charge in the first place.

GM made those things burn gas on purpose likely for $$ and its likely someone Lobbied (with lots of money) them to make it so it would still burn gasoline.

 

[nicobie]

]


If they were to remove that expensive gasoline engine fuel tank and all the stuff that goes with it and take the cost of those items and use it to make a bigger battery they would have had a car that travels ~200km/ charge in the first place.

.

True, but 200km is not enough range for my needs.

 

[Wheazel]

I would not call transferring 90%+ of the trips to electric a waste of money when the alternative would be a regular ice car.

If they were to remove that expensive gasoline engine fuel tank and all the stuff that goes with it and take the cost of those items and use it to make a bigger battery they would have had a car that travels ~200km/ charge in the first place.

GM made those things burn gas on purpose likely for $$ and its likely someone Lobbied (with lots of money) them to make it so it would still burn gasoline.

What you suggest does not cover the expectations people have on transportation as of today. The ice cars are the standard, good and bad, not wagon+horse that needs to rest after say 150km per day. Or a car that goes 200km and then needs to be charged several hours.
Until cell tech is capable/cheap enough and fast charging is widespread enough, pure elctric is not an alternative for longer trips, (Unless you have a tesla S or X in a few countries with good SC networks) and a cheap electric car becomes "the second car" in a two car family. Simply because it can not live up to the requirements of todays expectations.
Add to this that the EV charging possibilities are very different around the world.

With this in the equation I think that the volt/ampera is a huge step forward that actually encourages electric transportation. One car families actually rely on this car for transportation.
THis is very seldom the case for a renault zoe or nissan leaf (both very pleasant cars imo)
You can argue schemes and conspiracies all day long, but it will not change the fact that most people dont want to rely on a car that goes <200km/charge.

I do believe that the model3 will be another great step forward as more people will feel they can rely on the functionality of the m3 as a "first car".
Rome was not built in a day.

 

[Arlo1]

I would not call transferring 90%+ of the trips to electric a waste of money when the alternative would be a regular ice car.

If they were to remove that expensive gasoline engine fuel tank and all the stuff that goes with it and take the cost of those items and use it to make a bigger battery they would have had a car that travels ~200km/ charge in the first place.

GM made those things burn gas on purpose likely for $$ and its likely someone Lobbied (with lots of money) them to make it so it would still burn gasoline.

What you suggest does not cover the expectations people have on transportation as of today. The ice cars are the standard, good and bad, not wagon+horse that needs to rest after say 150km per day. Or a car that goes 200km and then needs to be charged several hours.
Until cell tech is capable/cheap enough and fast charging is widespread enough, pure elctric is not an alternative for longer trips, (Unless you have a tesla S or X in a few countries with good SC networks) and a cheap electric car becomes "the second car" in a two car family. Simply because it can not live up to the requirements of todays expectations.
Add to this that the EV charging possibilities are very different around the world.

With this in the equation I think that the volt/ampera is a huge step forward that actually encourages electric transportation. One car families actually rely on this car for transportation.
THis is very seldom the case for a renault zoe or nissan leaf (both very pleasant cars imo)
You can argue schemes and conspiracies all day long, but it will not change the fact that most people dont want to rely on a car that goes <200km/charge.

I do believe that the model3 will be another great step forward as more people will feel they can rely on the functionality of the m3 as a "first car".
Rome was not built in a day.

I don't agree when I said 200kmn I was just thowing that out there. It could be 400km/charge. Tesla is proving this now. GM needs to take this more serious. I see the volt as a sham they made an electric in 2007/2008 and it was at a big auto show called the volt then it took many years to finaly get out to the public but got a ICE added back into it. They did that to make money not because they wanted it to sell easier. They have always drug their feet on electrics. A prius was a good step forward but how many years behind was the volt??? Come on batteries are not that expensive and most can charge in 1 hour or less.

 

[Punx0r]

What do cells built into a finished pack cost? $500/Kwh? These cars do something like 300Wh/mi on electric, so an extra $500 spent on battery might get you an extra 3mi/5Km of range. No way you get to a 200 or 400Km range car by deleting the ICE range extender.

PHEVs are a very logical step between pure ICE and BEV, both in terms of cost, the fledgling EV charging infrastructure and user expectations.

 

[Arlo1]

Hahahahaha you think the ICE portion of the car cost $500 you are off by over an order of magnitude.

 

[liveforphysics]

What do cells built into a finished pack cost? $500/Kwh? These cars do something like 300Wh/mi on electric, so an extra $500 spent on battery might get you an extra 3mi/5Km of range. No way you get to a 200 or 400Km range car by deleting the ICE range extender.

PHEVs are a very logical step between pure ICE and BEV, both in terms of cost, the fledgling EV charging infrastructure and user expectations.

If it still sprays toxic gasses into the singular life support system, it's not and has never been a real option, just something some humans once did for a while before extinction or moving onward to sustainable options.

 

[Warren]

Yeah. My head explodes every time I talk to people about cars. We have understood, for fifty years at least, that we live in very thin layer of atmosphere, on a small planet. There are only so many resources, and so much space. The answer to pollution is dilution, only as long as you are putting it out there at, or below, the rate at which the planet can reabsorb it. It is not a mystery, and not that hard to understand. We suffer from willful ignorance.

 

[Ohbse]

What do cells built into a finished pack cost? $500/Kwh? These cars do something like 300Wh/mi on electric, so an extra $500 spent on battery might get you an extra 3mi/5Km of range. No way you get to a 200 or 400Km range car by deleting the ICE range extender.

PHEVs are a very logical step between pure ICE and BEV, both in terms of cost, the fledgling EV charging infrastructure and user expectations.

Estimates vary, but latest generation of Tesla/LG packs are in the ballpark of $130-150/kwh. $5k worth of ICE related drivetrain = more like 120 miles/200km more range. That wasn't true even a couple of years ago, vehicle development is a 3+ year cycle, so it's easy to criticize decisions made based on the state of play 5+ years ago in the case of the volt. But going forward, it's incredibly hard to justify the PHEV from a cost/usability standpoint, not to mention the obvious toxic emissions.

If you start out every single day with a 500km range, how often are you realistically going to require charging anywhere outside of your home? For me and probably 95% of people the answer is never. EV charging infrastructure is CONSTANTLY referred to as the absolutely essential development required for mass adoption and it's complete bollocks. People just can't picture a future where you do not need to sporadically stop and recharge in the middle of your day, that your 'tank' is full every single morning.

 

[Warren]

" People just can't picture a future where you do not need to sporadically stop and recharge in the middle of your day, that your 'tank' is full every single morning."

Exactly! All the whining on electric car sites about trips is a joke. The only people taking more than one trip a year, have stock portfolios. Working folks are busting their hump 50 weeks a year.

 

[liveforphysics]

Yeah. My head explodes every time I talk to people about cars. We have understood, for fifty years at least, that we live in very thin layer of atmosphere, on a small planet. There are only so many resources, and so much space. The answer to pollution is dilution, only as long as you are putting it out there at, or below, the rate at which the planet can reabsorb it. It is not a mystery, and not that hard to understand. We suffer from willful ignorance.

The inside of your own lungs are a perfect example of how the toxins are "reabsorbed" by nature.

Already the process of 'nature' absorbing the toxins kills ~5.5million human lives annually and unknown marine and fauna/flora damage. That means >15,000 humans daily die as a result of their lungs filtering the toxins out of the atmosphere for us. That's roughly 5x the 9-11 deaths daily, or a 9-11 level human atrocitie every 3hours 24-7.

Burning things for energy was never a real option for a species that wishes to continue existing in its environment. Just a fleeting practice done for a bit by a culture too ignorant to see what happens when the single life support system is treated like an unlimited dumping ground.

http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-35568249

 

[Warren]

"Burning things for energy was never a real option for a species that wishes to continue existing in its environment. Just a fleeting practice done for a bit by a culture too ignorant to see what happens when the single life support system is treated like an unlimited dumping ground."

Except it wasn't actually ignorance. The car, and oil industry knew exactly what putting lead in gas meant. That's why they called it the Ethyl Corporation, instead of the Deadly Lead Corporation. It is the same greed at work as I type this.

 

[Hillhater]

Burning things for energy was never a real option for a species that wishes to continue existing in its environment. Just a fleeting practice done for a bit by a culture too ignorant to see what happens when the single life support system is treated like an unlimited dumping ground.....

But "burning things for energy"..(Fire)...was one of the prime factors in the dominance and development of the human species !...

 

[Wheazel]

I don't agree when I said 200kmn I was just thowing that out there. It could be 400km/charge. Tesla is proving this now. GM needs to take this more serious. I see the volt as a sham they made an electric in 2007/2008 and it was at a big auto show called the volt then it took many years to finaly get out to the public but got a ICE added back into it. They did that to make money not because they wanted it to sell easier. They have always drug their feet on electrics. A prius was a good step forward but how many years behind was the volt??? Come on batteries are not that expensive and most can charge in 1 hour or less.

Yea i guess we should ask ourselves why tesla model S didnt cost half its price years ago then? Or why didnt many other new car companies pop up to grab the low hanging fruit with 400km/charge cars for cheap?
Any why didnt the Nissan leaf get a 80kWh pack to start with? And why do toyota that released the prius so many years ago bother with h2 and fuel cell tech in the mirai? It has to be because they all want to delay the transition to battery EVs right?

What battery tech did GM have in 2007/2008? Could they build a 400-500km BEV with the same price tag? I doubt that.
Might be very true that GM should take EVing more seriously, as I think all of the US should. The climate denial and 4wd bigass truck mentality seem quite widespread, which certainly affects GM.

A prius is of questionable functionality overall. Bad in colder climates, as all the heat in the vehicle comes from the engine. Very small battery (nimh). It also took many years until a plug-in option became available.
The only (but significant) step forward with the prius was the increased efficiency in city traffic by reusing brake energy.

Chevy volt/opel ampera is in my opinion the first reasonably priced car people can rely on as a first car/single car and still make most trips 100% electric.
I have not seen this functionality prior to volt/ampera, enlighten me if I am wrong.
Lets hope the model 3 and its competitors can get the pure electrics into the same state. The model s has this position but a pricetag to follow.

 

[Arlo1]

What I am getting at is the prius is the first step and it works well for its purpose. All the cabs up here in Canada are mostly prius's and they work well.

The Volt if it was a real effort would have been full electric with about 2x the range of the leaf then increasing range every couple years as tech gets better.

The Model S makes Tesla money but was also not designed to be easy to make as Elon points out one of the major ways they are bringing the price of the Model 3 down is making it easier to make.

The Other OEMs already know how to make things cheep..... The leaf was OK.... But in all honesty its ugly... If they made them look better and then worked a little harder on the range it would be great. But I do have respect for the leaf and what its done. I love all the motors sitting in the wreckers and I will help they get put back into use very soon. BUT I WANT TO POINT OUT.... I will help make ANY MOTOR RUN!

Also we have 2 model 3s on order.....

 

[Hillhater]

" People just can't picture a future where you do not need to sporadically stop and recharge in the middle of your day, that your 'tank' is full every single morning."

Exactly! All the whining on electric car sites about trips is a joke. The only people taking more than one trip a year, have stock portfolios. Working folks are busting their hump 50 weeks a year.

..and the only folk who can afford garaging with aovernight charger station or a tesla, are those with stock portfolios.
Working folks are stuck with cheap ICEs. !

 

[Arlo1]

Working folks are stuck with cheap ICEs. !

I'm working folk. I drive a Electric CRX daily.....

 

[Ohbse]

" People just can't picture a future where you do not need to sporadically stop and recharge in the middle of your day, that your 'tank' is full every single morning."

Exactly! All the whining on electric car sites about trips is a joke. The only people taking more than one trip a year, have stock portfolios. Working folks are busting their hump 50 weeks a year.

..and the only folk who can afford garaging with aovernight charger station or a tesla, are those with stock portfolios.
Working folks are stuck with cheap ICEs. !

Bullshit. An extension lead and an offstreet carpark is the minimum for entry, that covers a very large percentage of the population. As always these things are starting at the high end and coming down to the 'working man'. Model 3 is most of the way there.

Most people could drive a leaf on a daily basis, early Leaf's are now ridiculously cheap. I could buy one on finance and cover it, registration, servicing and insurance purely off the savings on my weekly petrol spend. From a financial standpoint it's already a no-brainer. At the moment the only reason I don't is styling and performance.

 

[Warren]

With fast charging, apartment dwellers could charge a Bolt or Model 3 once a week while grocery shopping. The price has always been the obstacle. Car companies were never going to develop batteries on their own. The confluence of cordless phones stimulating battery development, and government action on fuel economy, and climate change have made this happen now. Could we have had lithium ion powered electric vehicles 50 years ago? Sure. But the forces for that change didn't exist. It still isn't cheap enough. But that will improve. Did it happen in time to make a difference? I am very skeptical on that point.

All the science says we are destroying the ecosphere at an unprecedented, and accelerating rate. Serious projections range from 50 to several hundred years. A tiny range, all within an order of magnitude, and far less time than it takes for evolution to make us more rational. Technically, we could save ourselves. But it would require a massive effort, on a scale never attempted, outside of global war. We simply aren't wired to deal with problems like this. Lots of people, raised on Star Trek and the internet, imagine we are more rational than we are.

Sorry. Back to playing with electricity.

 

[Warren]

"But "burning things for energy"..(Fire)...was one of the prime factors in the dominance and development of the human species !"

Yes. We overpowered large animals pretty quickly, and turned smaller ones to our use in a thousand years after that. It took us thousands of years to get a handle on microbes. But we are now, literally, our own worst enemy. We got clever quickly, but wisdom is taking a lot longer. Maybe longer than we have left to figure it out.

 

[nicobie]

Maybe longer than we have left to figure it out.

If we don't decide to quit making so many babies we'll never have time to figure it out.

 

[Hillhater]

Most people could drive a leaf on a daily basis, early Leaf's are now ridiculously cheap. I could buy one on finance and cover it, registration, servicing and insurance purely off the savings on my weekly petrol spend. From a financial standpoint it's already a no-brainer. At the moment the only reason I don't is styling and performance.

Just how many of those early Leafs are available in NZ ? ...must be a very different situation to Oz where there are never more than a few to be found...and then what is the "rediculously cheap" price they ask.?
There are none under $15k over here, and they are 2010/11 models with some pretty predicable battery issues.
They are no good for our country dwellers or out of town commuters who may have off street parking, leaving only the city dwellers... ( mostly in apartments these days in Oz)..to figure out how to get a power feed onto the street or into the underground parking !
..Sorry , but full EVs are only an option for a minority of folk with the funds and facilities to allow some form of practical use.
This is why Hybrids are so much more popular and practical currently..at least a step in the right direction.

 

[Warren]

"If we don't decide to quit making so many babies we'll never have time to figure it out."

We're from the Trump administration, and we're here to help.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/to-your-health/wp/2017/01/23/trump-reverses-abortion-related-policy-to-ban-funding-to-international-health-groups/