Thanks to Chris at Lectric Cycles

[Alan B]

Good chainline. Those gears are way too clean.

You have hit the nail on the head for the BBS02. Great little drive but gets pretty hot. I'm going to use one on my folder, but I think a serious bike calls for the HD, personally.

I've been unable to heat the BBSHD much on low gear singletrack climbs so steep the front wheel is barely staying on the ground, but going 25-30 upgrade on pavement will warm it up more, not really hot though. I do keep the motor spinning fast when using much power, but the downside there is my pedaling cadence doesn't reach motor speed, but that's where the motor runs coolest. But for an increase in system weight of only 3 pounds the HD seems a good all-round choice unless really paring the ounces. There's always the Astro powered Tangent for that use-case.

The Cromotor rockets up the hills without getting all that warm. The problem with the regular hubmotors is they don't develop enough torque for steep stuff. The Cromotor is about double the torque capacity of the usual hubmotor, and it just doesn't have the heating problem at the same torque levels.

 

[IdleUp]

Ok, since price comparisons have been a significant part of this thread, and there has been a bit of a He said, He said back and forth, I thought I would try to provide some objective numbers according the websites of Luna and Lectric Cycles:

Luna Cycles:

Giant Stance 2 (2016) with
BBSHD mid-drive motor
11.5AH 52V downtube battery
3A Charger
DP-10 B&W display
Gear sensor
Shipping

Total $3,000


Lectric Cycles:

Giant Stance 2 (2016) with
BBS02 (750W) mid-drive motor
11.6AH 48V downtube battery
2A charger
DP-14 color display
Gear Sensor
Shipping

$3,495

So, the Luna Cycles product is $500 cheaper and comes with a BBSHD instead of a BBS02 and a slightly higher capacity battery. Luna has a cheaper, B&W display instead of the superior color display supplied by Lectric. However, Luna comes with a 3A charger instead of a 2A charger. Note that Lectric Cycles charges $455 more for a BBSHD than a BBS02 (750W). So, by their own pricing, an similarly equipped bike from Lectric will cost $900 more (with a little credit for the color display). Luna only charges $200 more for the BBSHD than the 750W BBS02. Perhaps Green Machine was over zealous with the price he originally announced in this forum (now in the For Sale New section), but his product is clearly less expensive by a large margin, nearly 25% for an equivalent product, and is even $500 more for the product with a less powerful, and perhaps less reliable under severe use, motor. I, for one, would love to read a comparative review of the two products written by an objective reviewer so that we can gain additional information on the reported advantages of Lectric Cycles custom firmware and hardened shafts (is it just me, or that a bit obscene?). It would be even better if the review could include a full teardown of both motors after seriously abusing them.

Now the OP has stated that he paid less than the price listed on the Lectric Cycles website. This could make their product more competitive. Could he please share how much less he paid, and whether and how that discount is available to the rest of us?

Please note that I do not have a dog in this fight. I did recently by a BBS02 kit from Luna that I have yet to receive since it is arriving in Costa Rica, where I live, tomorrow in my friend's luggage, but I have no particular loyalty to them, nor have I ever received any financial incentives. I simply bought from them because they had a great price and availability.

Looks like you guys have way too much time on your hands and your not going to let this post be about a turn key bike but rather than making brownie points with a vendor. The sole motorization of these posts is to only hi-jack the thread to promote a company to make revenue.

Bottom line you guys need to re-read the post - I never said anything about one company being less expensive than another. What I did say is that after I added up the cost of buying Giant Stance and ordering the motor kit and battery from Luna it was within $300 of what I paid for a professionally fully built "Turn-Key" bike from Lectric Cycle. To be honest with you, I would have paid another $600 more not to mess with ordering bikes and parts and the effort to put a bike together. So moral of the story I only paid around $300 or less to have the bike built for me.

The benefits of ordering a turn key bike from Lectric Cycle instead of Luna are:

1) I could actually talk to someone and ask questions!

2)The bike came completely professionally built not one thing wrong or in need of adjustment.

2) Lectric manufactures a custom 92 mm mount for the Giant Stance Luna did not.

3) Lectric includes a custom hardened shaft.

4) Lectric came with custom Firmware.

5) Lectric came with an improved and smoother gear shifter/firmware.

As a bonus Lectric included at no extra cost:

1) an upgraded battery pack 14 amp battery

2) A color display

3) A Kick stand


The "Most" important deciding factor was the fact that for 4 days I called Luna and left messages got mail box full messages and not one return phone call. I said it before and I'll say it again - I don't play that answering service game when I'm spending thousands of dollars. You want my business, you better answer the dam phone and be nice to me. I would gladly pay more to any company who is professional and respectful of my time!

Lastly, of all the "Geniuses" who are comparing prices - not one of them bothered to call Lectric Cycle or they would have found out that you don't pay "Retail" advertised prices.

I'll ask you again . . . Is any of this starting to make sense to you guys?

Thanks - Mike

 

[spinningmagnets]

As a young man growing up in Southern California, I was very excited to finally get a car I could drive (a puke-green 1971 Ford Pinto...insert joke here). Being "not rich", I had to learn how to work on my own car for minor repairs. There were (of course) auto parts stores, (Auto Zone, Western Auto, NAPA, etc), and of course...if you had very little time, and "some" extra money, there were countless car repair shops. Pep Boys was different.

There is a national chain of businesses called "Pep Boys", and over time they evolved into a pattern. They all had a parts store, so the DIY crowd could buy parts and fix things themselves, but...they also had a row of bays out back with lifts and mechanics. They didn't rebuild engines and automatic transmissions, but...if you had a bad component, they would swap them out, using a local rebuild shop they contract with. Their bread and butter items were brakes, shocks, tires, and oil changes.

eRad and Luna will sell you a kit, or...they will (now) sell you a turn-key ebike. I view competition as a good thing.

In articles I have written, I rarely post prices because...prices for "a certain part" sometimes vary from one vendor to another, and (as we have seen) prices have a tendency to come down over time. An article I wrote a year ago can still be very valid, but...the prices I might have posted then are no longer accurate.

In the interests of full disclosure to new readers, I am a writer for electricbike.com. That website is owned by Luna, but...I have no business dealings with Luna. I like to write about electric bikes, and Eric (green machine) lets me. I am well compensated for writing.

 

[PRW]

Customer service is underrated. Some people don't have the time, knowledge, interest or ability (or in my case all 4 ) to be bothered in sorting out all that goes into a build. I realize that this is sacrilegious to state on ES, but some have other priorities.

 

[induna]

Mike, Why do you assume my post was directed to you? It wasn't. I'm not promoting anybody, just trying to supply objective data about issues of price that were repeatedly raised in this thread. The only questions I directed to you were about what you actually paid, how you obtained a less than advertised price, and whether that price might be available to others. Questions which you chose to answer only by derision. Speaking of which, is the aggressive sarcasm really necessary? It doesn't make you any more convincing or credible, and only encourages the kind of replies you say you don't want.

In any case, enjoy your bike.

 

[IdleUp]

As a young man growing up in Southern California, I was very excited to finally get a car i could drive (a puke-green 1971 Ford Pinto...insert joke here). Being "not rich", I had to learn how to work on my own car for minor repairs. There were (of course) auto parts stores, (Auto Zone, Western Auto, NAPA, etc), and of course when you had little time and some extra money, there were countless car repair shops. Pep Boys was different.

There is a chain of businesses called Pep Boys, and over time they evolved into a pattern. They all had a parts store, so the DIY crowd could buy parts and fix things themselves, but...they also had a row of bays out back with lifts and mechanics. They didn't rebuild engines and automatic transmissions, but...if you had a bad component, they would swap them out, using a rebuild shop they contract with. Their bread and butter items were brakes, shocks, tires, and oil changes.

eRad and Luna will sell you a kit, or...they will (now) sell you a turn-key ebike. I view competition as a good thing.

In articles I have written, I rarely post prices because...prices for a part sometimes vary from one vendor to another, and (as we have seen) prices have a tendency to come down over time. An article I wrote a year ago can still be very valid, but...the prices I might have posted then are no longer accurate.

In the interests of full disclosure to new readers, I am a writer for electricbike.com. That website is owned by Luna, but...I have no business dealings with Luna. I like to write about electric bikes, and Eric (green machine) lets me. I am well compensated for writing.

Spinning thanks for the words of wisdom - actually the sales of eBikes are really no different from the RC Helicopter & Drone industry where I'm from: http://www.rotory.com Everyone is pretty mush selling the same exact "Chicken Parts" and what separates dealers is there own relationship with the the guys buying the stuff. Its pretty simple logic - if you treat your customers right, they like you and buy more stuff!

As I mentioned, I never spoke to or have any relationship what-so-ever with anyone in this industry with regard to an ebikes. I recently bought a Prodeco Tech Outlaw 1200 and didn't like it and went looking for a mid-drive bike to climb these Georgia hills. If I would have been able to make contact with Luna, this post would be on their bike instead of Lectrics. Please understand I'm not a spokes person for Lectric just one of their customers. They priced the bike out, I agreed, they built it the way I asked and when it arrived I ripped the box open and I was riding! Getting the lowest price in the industry was not my prerequisite.

If nothing else, this thread has brought up the importance of customer relationship, I sure from the way I'm getting beat up here Luna has so loyal followers. Let's just all get along - who give a damn where you bought something or what you paid for it - let's just ride the damn things and have fun!

Thanks Mike

 

[tomjasz]

4 5 Pinocchio's

No such animal as a 92mm motor
The firmware is used by everyone
The motor is a relabeled Bafang
Shaft aren't subject to failure
edit custom gear shifting


I helped answer customer email for Luna. I no longer do that.
I own a Lectric kit, motor and battery. it gets ridden daily.

 

[tomjasz]

That website is owned by Luna, but...I have no business dealings with Luna. I like to write about electric bikes, and Eric (green machine) lets me. I am well compensated for writing.

Thanks for all you do. And the way you inform. Honest, fair, and unbiased.

 

[IdleUp]

4 Pinocchios

No such animal as a 92mm motor
The firmware is used by everyone
The motor is a relabeled Bafang
Shaft aren't subject to failure

Three Pinocchios for you!

No such animal as a 92mm motor - Wrong
The firmware is used by everyone - Totally Wrong - Shift sensor works like nothing else out there!
The motor is a relabeled Bafang Yes - we all know that!
Shaft aren't subject to failure - Wrong - Its still a hardened shaft.

Thanks Anyhow!

 

[Mundo]

spinningmagnets wrote:
That website is owned by Luna, but...I have no business dealings with Luna. I like to write about electric bikes, and Eric (green machine) lets me. I am well compensated for writing.



Thanks for all you do. And the way you inform. Honest, fair, and unbiased.

Agreed
Plus 1

 

[Green Machine]

actually the sales of eBikes are really no different from the RC Helicopter & Drone industry where I'm from: http://www.rotory.com Everyone is pretty mush selling the same exact "Chicken Parts" and what separates dealers is there own relationship with the the guys buying the stuff. Its pretty simple logic - if you treat your customers right, they like you and buy more stuff!

As I mentioned, I never spoke to or have any relationship what-so-ever with anyone in this industry with regard to an ebikes. I recently bought a Prodeco Tech Outlaw 1200 and didn't like it and went looking for a mid-drive bike to climb these Georgia hills. If I would have been able to make contact with Luna, this post would be on their bike instead of Lectrics. Please understand I'm not a spokes person for Lectric just one of their customers. They priced the bike out, I agreed, they built it the way I asked and when it arrived I ripped the box open and I was riding! Getting the lowest price in the industry was not my prerequisite.

If nothing else, this thread has brought up the importance of customer relationship, I sure from the way I'm getting beat up here Luna has so loyal followers. Let's just all get along - who give a damn where you bought something or what you paid for it - let's just ride the damn things and have fun!

Thanks Mike

Customer Service? Luna has nothing to hide about customer service.

We answer every email within a few hours....we have live chat.

We have a great team of customer service people who love ebikes (all are members of this forum)

We believe in honesty and ethics and wont tell you bull shit to sale you a kit or a bike.

We believe in affordable pricing and making a fair profit margin... we are against price gouging dealers like lectric who charge $1100 dollars for a bbs02 and call it an E-Rad.

If i was gonna pay for a brand name I would pick a brand with not such an awful sounding name and ugly logo.

I am sure Chris the manager at lectic is better at answering the phone and smooth talking more than anyone we got. Lectric is based on sales talk. I also bet he doesnt know that much about ebikes. Everyone on our customer service team contributes in writing to the knowledge base we are building on the products we sale. And yeah i have chosen to make that more important than having all our guys on the phone all day. Yeah it would make more business sense for me to hire some sales like guys and pay them for every kit or bike they sold..... but we would lose a lot of our integrity that way and thats not part of the model i have chosen.

We say right on our contact page that the best way to get a hold of us is in writing...email rather than phone. We do our best to answer phones and return messages....as far as I know all messages are returned. But damn man we get busy...and our emphasis is on shipping fast and all the after sales support..... pre sales questions we hope people can do their own research. (google this: google) or email us.... we are not too good at phone i admit that.... we got a pretty good damn website behind us with lots and lots of info on it written by us.

To me customer service is also about being honest and forthright.... in fact in the long run that is way more important than just closing a sale.


Some day many people like you are gonna look back on that sale and think what better things they could have done with that 1k they lost.

I know for you its not life changing money..... for many of us it is.....1k has the potential to change my life.....and if someone takes 1k from me and is not straight with me what i paid for I am not going to give that business any more money.

Everyone knows what luna did for the price structure of this industry and some know we made a few enemies out of certain ebike dealers when we did this....

i am proud if the only dirt you can come up with is we didnt return your phone call in a timely manner.

 

[IdleUp]

I would really like to move on and discuss the bike and the drive rather than your business model . . .

Regretfully, it was unknown to me the hate you have for Lectric! As much as you hate to hear it, they are going to keep getting your business because they are there for their customers and you're not. You''re not a Honda or Apple quite yet - you need to answer the damn phone or delegate that responsibility to someone who can. If your so successful and have such a vast market, then what's the deal big deal spend the time or spend the money! - e-bike's by their nature are complicated and when a guy spends thousands of dollars he does not want to get online or email someone and wait a day or so.

Don't knock the folks at Lectric they run a professional company, build good products and most important provide technical help for their customers. They understand the value of providing help and hire a staff to provide that service. Their cost of operation is higher so it reflects their pricing.

I've worked with almost every company in the US, Germany, China and Japan on development of R/C models so I know the way each country works, products from China are plum full of problems and quality control issues, you can't just get a container of motors and ship them to your customers and not answer the phone - the quality is just not there That's why you pay less!

Thanks Mike

 

[Ebike4me]

Blah blah blah... This sounds like a script from the election primaries.. Promises and fluff... You keep criticizing the OP of this thread because he mentioned he could not get through on the phone to you so he went elsewhere after doing much research and purchased a bike he is obviously happy with. After you told him he paid too much money for his bike, you elected to tell everyone you could deliver the same package for $2323. You then added the bike to your inventory in a similar configuration and came up with a comparable price of $3000+ which is what the 0P paid for his bike. If nothing else, you owe the OP an apology for implying he got ripped off by the other vendor. When clearly that is not the case. From what I have researched, the price between retailers is not that much difference with a little bit of negotiation. The main difference is customer service. That's what matters. The OP's experience in contacting lunar cycle was obviously not a good one. You can argue that all you want, but that was his experience. Get over it. It happens.
I was going to purchase that configuration from you for the price you offered above. Since that did not materialize, I will move on and check with other vendors and options... Next time you might not want to be so quick to criticize and live up to your words..

actually the sales of eBikes are really no different from the RC Helicopter & Drone industry where I'm from: http://www.rotory.com Everyone is pretty mush selling the same exact "Chicken Parts" and what separates dealers is there own relationship with the the guys buying the stuff. Its pretty simple logic - if you treat your customers right, they like you and buy more stuff!

As I mentioned, I never spoke to or have any relationship what-so-ever with anyone in this industry with regard to an ebikes. I recently bought a Prodeco Tech Outlaw 1200 and didn't like it and went looking for a mid-drive bike to climb these Georgia hills. If I would have been able to make contact with Luna, this post would be on their bike instead of Lectrics. Please understand I'm not a spokes person for Lectric just one of their customers. They priced the bike out, I agreed, they built it the way I asked and when it arrived I ripped the box open and I was riding! Getting the lowest price in the industry was not my prerequisite.

If nothing else, this thread has brought up the importance of customer relationship, I sure from the way I'm getting beat up here Luna has so loyal followers. Let's just all get along - who give a damn where you bought something or what you paid for it - let's just ride the damn things and have fun!

Thanks Mike

Customer Service? Luna has nothing to hide about customer service.

We answer every email within a few hours....we have live chat.

We have a great team of customer service people who love ebikes (all are members of this forum)

We believe in honesty and ethics and wont tell you bull shit to sale you a kit or a bike.

We believe in affordable pricing and making a fair profit margin... we are against price gouging dealers like lectric who charge $1100 dollars for a bbs02 and call it an E-Rad.

If i was gonna pay for a brand name I would pick a brand with not such an awful sounding name and ugly logo.

I am sure Chris the manager at lectic is better at answering the phone and smooth talking more than anyone we got. Lectric is based on sales talk. I also bet he doesnt know that much about ebikes. Everyone on our customer service team contributes in writing to the knowledge base we are building on the products we sale. And yeah i have chosen to make that more important than having all our guys on the phone all day. Yeah it would make more business sense for me to hire some sales like guys and pay them for every kit or bike they sold..... but we would lose a lot of our integrity that way and thats not part of the model i have chosen.

We say right on our contact page that the best way to get a hold of us is in writing...email rather than phone. We do our best to answer phones and return messages....as far as I know all messages are returned. But damn man we get busy...and our emphasis is on shipping fast and all the after sales support..... pre sales questions we hope people can do their own research. (google this: google) or email us.... we are not too good at phone i admit that.... we got a pretty good damn website behind us with lots and lots of info on it written by us.

To me customer service is also about being honest and forthright.... in fact in the long run that is way more important than just closing a sale.


Some day many people like you are gonna look back on that sale and think what better things they could have done with that 1k they lost.

I know for you its not life changing money..... for many of us it is.....1k has the potential to change my life.....and if someone takes 1k from me and is not straight with me what i paid for I am not going to give that business any more money.

Everyone knows what luna did for the price structure of this industry and some know we made a few enemies out of certain ebike dealers when we did this....

i am proud if the only dirt you can come up with is we didnt return your phone call in a timely manner.

 

[Alan B]

There's enough business to support more than one company. From what I can tell, Luna is selling all the product they can get a hold of, things go out of stock quickly. At some point people may buy from other vendors just because Luna is out of stock (batteries seem to be the most difficult to keep in stock).

Personally I don't admire companies that make blatantly incorrect statements and add on huge price markups on their published pricing, smooth sales talk turns me off. Being an engineer the alarm bells go off quickly when they start making technical mistakes in their claims. But there are customers who like it. What really matters though, isn't the smooth talk, but what they will actually do when there are problems and repairs or upgrades are needed. Not just what they will do for one customer, but for all customers. The total support picture. Paying a bit more can be totally worthwhile if there is a written contract of extended support. Paying extra for 5 or 7 year support on vehicles, this is the place where companies can charge a bit more and provide actual value for the customer.

But I agree with you, this thread should focus on the bike, and how it works. Specifically I'm wondering if the BBS02 heating is an important problem for you that limits the utility of the bike and you're going to want to upgrade it to a BBSHD to improve it, or just live with the limitations. How much of a limitation is it?

I want to put a BBS02 on a lightweight folding bike that needs to stay light, and I wonder if I'll run into the BBS02 heating problem, so I'm directly interested in this topic.

 

[Ebike4me]

I'm now looking past the BBS02 and onto the hd.. Not sure you would run into heat problems unless you
Are running it quite hard. I might as well go with the newer possibly more durable unit. Still reading about
It.. Seems to run at a higher rpm and more windings and a higher capacity controller.. Onward and upward..
Which folding bike are you looking at.. I would love to have something foldable so I can toss it in the trunk..
I haven't found the right compromise of portability vs usability while keeping it practical..
An excuse to own multiple bikes..

There's enough business to support more than one company. From what I can tell, Luna is selling all the product they can get a hold of, things go out of stock quickly. At some point people may buy from other vendors just because Luna is out of stock (batteries seem to be the most difficult to keep in stock).

Personally I don't admire companies that make blatantly incorrect statements and add on huge price markups on their published pricing, smooth sales talk turns me off. Being an engineer the alarm bells go off quickly when they start making technical mistakes in their claims. But there are customers who like it. What really matters though, isn't the smooth talk, but what they will actually do when there are problems and repairs or upgrades are needed. Not just what they will do for one customer, but for all customers. The total support picture. Paying a bit more can be totally worthwhile if there is a written contract of extended support. Paying extra for 5 or 7 year support on vehicles, this is the place where companies can charge a bit more and provide actual value for the customer.

But I agree with you, this thread should focus on the bike, and how it works. Specifically I'm wondering if the BBS02 heating is an important problem for you that limits the utility of the bike and you're going to want to upgrade it to a BBSHD to improve it, or just live with the limitations. How much of a limitation is it?

I want to put a BBS02 on a lightweight folding bike that needs to stay light, and I wonder if I'll run into the BBS02 heating problem, so I'm directly interested in this topic.

 

[Alan B]

I'm working on a Xootr Swift. To use a BBS02 and still allow it to fold the drive will have to be rotated back to the chainstays, and this will probably require some strapping to the stays as the natural tendency of the motor will be to rotate away from them under torque. I did a test fit with a local dealer's test mule BBS02 on my Swift, but I haven't gone any farther yet.

The Swift is a good quality folder using standard parts, a number of folks on ES here have made ebikes of them, mostly hubmotor. A geared hubmotor in the front wheel is another choice but won't handle the 15% gradient of some of our hills.

I have the HD on a 27.5 hard tail Diamondback and it rarely gets warm. It seems to be a great combination. As I've mentioned hard runs on pavement warm it up a bit, but the lower speeds in the dirt don't seem to. I don't ride too hard though to reduce the unpleasant falling.

As you have mentioned, hubmotors in the same conditions tend to overheat on the steep low speed stuff. The HD in the same conditions barely warms up. 3:1 gearing makes for 9:1 less heat at the same torque.

 

[rockwalk]

I wasn't going to get baited into this until I saw Idleupthebutt's rant on Luna. I've been doing a good bit of business with them and every time I'm in a jam they came through above and beyond any reasonable expectations - and they didn't know me or anything - just another regular Joe. Staying late at the shop waiting for me to come by and get a battery that they did a bms swap for free same day. Another guy saved my ass and said "I'll bring it with me, come by my house when I get off" (11 pm). I got more stories too. Don't know Lectric so I have nothing to say about them but as for Luna, stand up crew - each and every one of them I've met to date.

and Idleupthebutt, here's my seat - stock Giant set up and very comfy - if you aren't 50+ lbs over weight that is ; )

 

[tomjasz]

4 Pinocchios

No such animal as a 92mm motor
The firmware is used by everyone
The motor is a relabeled Bafang
Shaft aren't subject to failure

Three Pinocchios for you!

No such animal as a 92mm motor - Wrong
The firmware is used by everyone - Totally Wrong - Shift sensor works like nothing else out there!
The motor is a relabeled Bafang Yes - we all know that!
Shaft aren't subject to failure - Wrong - Its still a hardened shaft.

Thanks Anyhow!

WOW, hook, line AND sinker.

 

[tomjasz]

If you want NOS, New Old Stock, BBS02 conversions with a Gear Sensor, buy the OP's kit.

It's nothing more than a copy of the development work done by Doug at California eBikes. It does have a better drive shaft than Bafang produced but I know of ZERO shaft failures, nor do any of the three vendors I and friendly with.

The old version BBS02 is likely what you'l get as shown here.
https://electricbike-blog.com/2016/07/12/bafang-completely-redesigns-the-bbs02-and-tells-no-one/

If I'm wrong please correct me.

Programming is also nothing special. You can find it here.

https://electricbike-blog.com/2015/04/22/lectric-cycles-e-rad-branded-bbs02-is-what-bafang-should-have-been-selling-all-along/

Lectric HAD the corner on the Gear Sensor, but lost the exclusive and distributorship

Now EVERYONE has it.

http://gearsensor.com

This is my only objection. The peddling of the idea that one vendor has an exclusive product somehow better than any other on the market.

The BBSHD with GS is a far superior motor. Than a remanufactured old generation BBS02.

 

[tomjasz]

I want to put a BBS02 on a lightweight folding bike that needs to stay light, and I wonder if I'll run into the BBS02 heating problem, so I'm directly interested in this topic.

No heating problems if the motor is kept running at higher RPMs. Lugging the motor by no using the bikes gear system is where most of the problems come from. A WattMeter is very useful. We've been running BBS01's for over two years and they have been problem free. We just run through the gears as we would have before adding the motor. It's there to assist, not as the primary energy source. I have seen several BBSHD's on lightweight folders and the buyers were happy. For others the 4lbs is a deal breaker. I do things with the BBSHD that I couldn't do with the 02 and that's the leave the bike in 3rd or 4th and just ride without shifting. Pretty quick from a stop using the throttle with no regard or worry about heat. AND a top speed exceeding that of an 02 completely maxed out.

 

[IdleUp]

There's enough business to support more than one company. From what I can tell, Luna is selling all the product they can get a hold of, things go out of stock quickly. At some point people may buy from other vendors just because Luna is out of stock (batteries seem to be the most difficult to keep in stock).

Personally I don't admire companies that make blatantly incorrect statements and add on huge price markups on their published pricing, smooth sales talk turns me off. Being an engineer the alarm bells go off quickly when they start making technical mistakes in their claims. But there are customers who like it. What really matters though, isn't the smooth talk, but what they will actually do when there are problems and repairs or upgrades are needed. Not just what they will do for one customer, but for all customers. The total support picture. Paying a bit more can be totally worthwhile if there is a written contract of extended support. Paying extra for 5 or 7 year support on vehicles, this is the place where companies can charge a bit more and provide actual value for the customer.

But I agree with you, this thread should focus on the bike, and how it works. Specifically I'm wondering if the BBS02 heating is an important problem for you that limits the utility of the bike and you're going to want to upgrade it to a BBSHD to improve it, or just live with the limitations. How much of a limitation is it?

I want to put a BBS02 on a lightweight folding bike that needs to stay light, and I wonder if I'll run into the BBS02 heating problem, so I'm directly interested in this topic.

Alan B,

Thanks for your response - I’m sure it will all come out in the wash!

Getting back to the motor heat issue, the maximum temperature I obtained of 139 degrees, after a long run and climbing my steep driveway. This temperature is well within the operating specs of the motor and controller. My normal running temperature with 90 degree days is 120-130 degrees, with no pedaling and an average speed of 15 mph and I’m close to 200 pounds. The beauty of the Bafang drive is its unobstructed location right in the air stream, its a great design with regard to a low CG and ample cooling.

I also noticed in your reply - you were thinking of building a small fold-up. While I’m not trying to talk you out of building, here's a "Turn-Key" fold-up bike. If you’re looking for a high performance in a fold up, then look no further!

The Prodeco Tech Mariner 500 is an animal - while its a hub drive, here’s the things that make it work;

500 watts
Geared Drive
20 inch wheels (low ratio)
48 volt 11 amp battery

The 500 watt motor is happy thanks to the gearing and the low ratio thanks to the 20” tires. This bike comes with all the bells and whistles; front Swing Shock suspension, Velo plush suspension seat, hydraulic brakes, 9 speed gearing, all aluminum folding construction. While I was at a convention in Reston, Va I found it in a bike shop brand new for only $1300. A lot of the events i go to are spread over 2-5 acres, this thing is priceless. I also carry it around in the back off my Chevy Volt.

She has real good power on hills and it easily gets 20-25 mph top speed and 18-20 mile range. Here’s few images below - if you have any questions ask away!.

 

[MadRhino]

The Prodeco Tech Mariner 500 is an animal

:lol:
Can you tell what sort of animal ?
The only animal I see in it, is that you can fold it and stock it in a cage.

 

[Alan B]

That folder looks nice, and if I was on level surfaces and mild gradients it would probably work fine, but I have this 15% gradient that overheats small hubmotors. Plus I already have the Swift, hence the interest in something like the BBS02.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions, though. I could consider the BBSHD for the Swift but don't know if I need the extra weight. The Swift is very light, unlike most folders, and one tends to pick up folders more often so the weight is more noticeable. At least one expert told me I'd have to reduce the current in the BBS02 to keep from lifting the front wheel too easily, but since the wheelbase is the same as a normal bike, and the chainring is 52 to compensate for the small tires, I wonder if that is going to be a problem. In any case he didn't feel the extra torque of the HD was needed on a folder.

I also do what was mentioned with my BBSHD on the RidgeRunner. Put the bike in 3rd gear and ride it like a hubmotor. No shifting. Wants to lift the front wheel on starting, and does 20 or so in that gear, so great around town, and doesn't get warm. It will still climb like crazy, I accidentally did some steep climbing in third on the Marin ride, it went right on up. I don't have to shift at all unless I want to go faster, or want to get some exercise pedaling. It is unfortunate that most mid drives operate best going faster than we can pedal comfortably. So it puts us in a quandary of optimizing for pedaling or motoring. At any rate, from what I've read the BBS02 would heat right up if I did that. I haven't tried it, but it seems consistent with various folks who have the experience. The '02 is fine if you just shift it more and keep the cadence up and don't expect quite the pavement continuous top speed that the HD can deliver.

 

[IdleUp]

That folder looks nice, and if I was on level surfaces and mild gradients it would probably work fine, but I have this 15% gradient that overheats small hubmotors. Plus I already have the Swift, hence the interest in something like the BBS02.

Thanks for the feedback and suggestions, though. I could consider the BBSHD for the Swift but don't know if I need the extra weight. The Swift is very light, unlike most folders, and one tends to pick up folders more often so the weight is more noticeable. At least one expert told me I'd have to reduce the current in the BBS02 to keep from lifting the front wheel too easily, but since the wheelbase is the same as a normal bike, and the chainring is 52 to compensate for the small tires, I wonder if that is going to be a problem. In any case he didn't feel the extra torque of the HD was needed on a folder.

I also do what was mentioned with my BBSHD on the RidgeRunner. Put the bike in 3rd gear and ride it like a hubmotor. No shifting. Wants to lift the front wheel on starting, and does 20 or so in that gear, so great around town, and doesn't get warm. It will still climb like crazy, I accidentally did some steep climbing in third on the Marin ride, it went right on up. I don't have to shift at all unless I want to go faster, or want to get some exercise pedaling. It is unfortunate that most mid drives operate best going faster than we can pedal comfortably. So it puts us in a quandary of optimizing for pedaling or motoring. At any rate, from what I've read the BBS02 would heat right up if I did that. I haven't tried it, but it seems consistent with various folks who have the experience. The '02 is fine if you just shift it more and keep the cadence up and don't expect quite the pavement continuous top speed that the HD can deliver.

Here's my girlfriends Baby "Mid-Drive Turn Key" foldup she's had almost a year now with no problems. This only has a 250 watt motor but she has plenty of power thanks to the ability of using the transmission.

 

[craneplaneguy]

My Montague Paratrooper Pro fits in the hatch of my Yaris, and folds in less then 30 seconds. It does well over 30, and climbs like a raped ape. BBSHD/Rohloff hub combo. My previous folder was another Montague, with a BBSO2 and a conventional derailleur system. Having gotten a heads up on the potential to overheat, I paid attention and never had any problems in over 500 miles. By contrast, the HD can be ridden " wrong", carelessly, up very steep trails, and lets you get away with it. I also have a 20" folder, a hub drive Trail Viper, but it gets ridden much less, after 1500 watts of mid drive power and performance, and even though I upgraded it to a 52 v system, it just doesn't hack it.

You problem with LUNA was like mine, until I figured out email was the way to go, you didn't figure that out before getting irritated, I get that. Once emailing them, all was instantly well, and continues so. 4 batteries, 3 drive systems, and lots of misc. later, they remain my supplier of all things e bike.