The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[markz]

Yeah, I am going to reduce my voltage from 72V to 60V on my battery so I can save up for this nice charger. It would work also on regular car batteries too right, I guess only if I connect up two in series to make it 24V. Is that wise for the C.S.?

 

[amberwolf]

It would work also on regular car batteries too right, I guess only if I connect up two in series to make it 24V. Is that wise for the C.S.?

Do you mean hooking two CS in series, or two car batteries?

The min voltage the CS charges to is 12V, at least on mine (still at the 0.9something version), and single FLA car batteries would be charged up to higher than that, so no need to use anything in series either way, unless I totally misunderstand what you are saying/asking.

 

[markz]

Sorry, I meant I would have to hook up 2 car batteries in series to reach the min. 20V of the C.S. Thats what I got from the PDF file, 20V. But if it charges to 12V then thats good too. I was going to buy 2 car/truck batteries from the junk yard for the JP Battery Tab Welder. The batteries would be in different states of charge obviously. But yeah thats cool if the C.S. charges 12V lead acids .

 

[amberwolf]

dunno for sure what the cs will do for l-a, but i charged up a 3s nmc lighting pack to 12.3v with it ok, and every day i recharge a 4s nmc lighting pack to 16.4v on the trike or bike.

 

[bjornb]

It does mean some planned firmware features like generic power-supply mode might have to be disabled, but that's a small price to pay.

Any news regarding power supply mode?

 

[justin_le]

Hey everyone, a little update on things. First is that I've finished what should be a fairly comprehensive update of the Satiator user manual to cover all of the V1.0 firmware features. Have a look here:
http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/Satiator_Manual_V1.0FW.pdf

We'll be including a printed copy of this with all the devices shipped starting next week.

For those who are on the upgrading program, the latest firmware build it V1.008. Mostly it's just minor enhancements and refinements. We noticed for instance that the battery temperature readings would be a bit off at high charge currents due to the voltage drop across the ground return lead, so now this is compensated for via the cable resistance term etc. The software suite has been updated so that you have an option to check for and download newer software as well as firmware



And we're working on a change to provide two streams for firmware updates, allowing you to either get the latest Beta firmware or the latest stable firmware. That should make the rollout of experimental code with new features go a bit more smoothly than the first few days of the 1.0 release.

It does mean some planned firmware features like generic power-supply mode might have to be disabled, but that's a small price to pay.

Any news regarding power supply mode?

Even without this explicitly enabled it's a lot easier to use the Satiator as a power supply of sorts with the new firmware, since you are able to do a "force start" operation even when the device thinks that there is a short circuit on the output. You don't need to do the whole bootstrapping procedures with another battery pack or voltage supply if there is a load on the Satiator's output. But as I've mentioned, there are quite a few limitations using this resonant converter topology as a general purpose power supply since it's slow to react to changing load conditions and any abrupt changes in the load are liable to cause a power stage overcurrent fault on the device.

For those who want this feature, can you clarify a bit what the anticipated needs are? Would this be mostly running constant load devices (like powering an LED light string or something), used as a lab supply for powering circuitboards, or running motors and more dynamic things? It would be good if people were to try this just using the existing charge profile structures (use lithium but set the minimum start voltage as low as possible) and see if it actually works in the intended application.

-Justin

 

[mrbill]

Even without this explicitly enabled it's a lot easier to use the Satiator as a power supply of sorts with the new firmware, since you are able to do a "force start" operation even when the device thinks that there is a short circuit on the output. You don't need to do the whole bootstrapping procedures with another battery pack or voltage supply if there is a load on the Satiator's output. But as I've mentioned, there are quite a few limitations using this resonant converter topology as a general purpose power supply since it's slow to react to changing load conditions and any abrupt changes in the load are liable to cause a power stage overcurrent fault on the device.

For those who want this feature, can you clarify a bit what the anticipated needs are? Would this be mostly running constant load devices (like powering an LED light string or something), used as a lab supply for powering circuitboards, or running motors and more dynamic things? It would be good if people were to try this just using the existing charge profile structures (use lithium but set the minimum start voltage as low as possible) and see if it actually works in the intended application.

I occasionally use an old Soneil 8A lead-acid charger that will function as a current supply for a couple of functions:

1) Measuring accurately using 2 inexpensive DVMs the resistance of passive devices with very low resistance such as shunts, motor coils, or sections of wire.

2) I have also tested my e-bike motor system on the bench up to the power available with the Soneil as power supply. Using a current-limited power supply is another level of safety for controller FETs when spinning up new motors or testing new Hall orientations.

I haven't yet tried using the Satiator to perform either of these functions, but if it can be used for these, then I no longer need my old Soneil charger to provide this functionality.

 

[amberwolf]

First time using the SSS on the PC (windows XP), previously only used the built in stuff on the Satiator.

Possible bug in the 1.008 version of the Satiator Software Suite--if it's not a bug, it's a strange behavior that should not be "as-intended":

Steps:
--open SSS 1.008
--load profiles (either from satiator or file)
--click on a profile in the list in the left pane
--click the Edit Profile button in the upper right pane
--click the Edit Advanced Settings button in the lower right pane
--change any value below that button
--click the Edit Advanced Settings button in the lower right pane
==observe that your change is reset to prior value, is not saved


what does work:
--open SSS 1.008
--load profiles (either from satiator or file)
--click on a profile in the list in the left pane
--click the Edit Profile button in the upper right pane
--click the Edit Advanced Settings button in the lower right pane
--change any value below that button
--click the Edit Profile button in the upper right pane
==observe that your change is reset to prior value, is saved


But based on that button's behavior, the Edit Advanced Settings button should *also* save the changes, when it's clicked, and the only thing that should cancel your changes is the actual Cancel button.


If it's not a bug, then the behavior is inconsistent and should be changed, as it is confusing. I spent about 30 minutes trying to figure out how to save the changes to advanced settings, including searching ES and the web for this, until finally at random I just clicked the Edit Profile button again and FINALLY it saved the advanced stuff instead of resetting it to pre-edit state like every other time. :/



Another possible bug:

there may be a missing space between Edit and Advanced (or there are extra spaces between Advanced and Settings).



FEATURE REQUESTS:
FWIW, I would change the program's GUI a little:

--Cancel button would become "Cancel changes" or "revert profile to original values", or something (I don't think either of those is quite the right wording).

--Edit Profile button would still say taht before you press them, but after you do, it would change to "Accept changes", or similar.

Same for Edit Advanced Settings.




Can we get a "copy to new profile" button or context menu item? This would copy an existing profile to a new one, so you can eidt that without having to completley make a new one from scratch.

I'ts probalby easy enough to do inside the xml file by hand, but for the average person that can't do that, it'd be handy if they don't wnaa alter the orignal proifle and want to make a few to experiment with based on a singel orignal profile.

 

[Ykick]

Any news about higher voltage (use at your own risk) version yet? Someone mentioned it in a another thread but I don't see anything here or I missed it?

 

[cavallo pazzo]

It's in the advertising on dedicated page, there's 3 versions: 24 V 15 A bare wires, "classical" 48 V 8 A version and 72 V 5 A.
Not seen in shop yet.
Waiting for it...

 

[markz]

It's in the advertising on dedicated page

You got a link?

 

[cavallo pazzo]

Here : http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/chargers/cycle-satiator.html
From there, brochure link goes to 1.2 revision.
Same from here: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html

Wait..
Here: http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/documents.html
Under Satiator zone, you have "satiator family 2015" leading to 1.3 document.
http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/Grin_SatiatorV1.3_WEB.pdf

 

[cavallo pazzo]

A question: I have a classical charger set to 56.7 V and 20 A for fast charging a 14s huge pack, 60 Ah.
Is it possible to parallel this charger and Satiator, to have 28 A of charging current to 56.7 V and finish with satiator only to 58.1 V at 8 A only ?
I'm used to parallel classical chargers, but no idea if it still works flawlessly with Satiator.

 

[BVH]

I don't know about the Paralleling but I think you'd be limited to just over 6 Amps with a 56.1 Volt termination Voltage based on the maximum 360 watts of power.

 

[markz]

I remember reading that paralleling power supplies/chargers is a big no no.

You can series them, and people have done it, I would be very cautious either way.

Just read up on paralleling, there is probably a ton of info out there.

 

[amberwolf]

If you were to use diodes in series with the positive wire output of each charger, with their anodes toward the charger and cathodes tied together at teh battery, it would be relatively safe to try it out, but then neither charger could read the actual battery state, and would simply be acting more like a steady-voltage power supply with current limiting (exact behavior will depend on the charger itself).

But I would generally not recommend paralleling them, simply because of that inability of the charger to check on the battery's state of charge.


If the chargers have internal diodes, then they may work paralleled, but again they won't be able to accurately check the battery's state, becuase the ooutput of the other charger will interfere with that.

 

[Marc S.]

A question: I have a classical charger set to 56.7 V and 20 A for fast charging a 14s huge pack, 60 Ah.
Is it possible to parallel this charger and Satiator, to have 28 A of charging current to 56.7 V and finish with satiator only to 58.1 V at 8 A only ?
I'm used to parallel classical chargers, but no idea if it still works flawlessly with Satiator.

I've sometimes done parallel charging with one of Cellmans 6A chargers set to 41V and the Satiator set to 42V/8A to speed up charging a 37V/45Ah LiMn battery.
Workes like a charm.

Justin confirmed (some 10 pages back in this thread) parallel charging works with the Satiator (thats why I tried it).

 

[markz]

Why would you parallel charge? to increase amperage?

If I wanted 72V from the Satiator, wouldnt a simple series charger setup work?
Maybe the ground isolated Dell 60A PSU first, and the Satiator and everythings locked into whatevers lowest.

 

[MrDude_1]

Why would you parallel charge? to increase amperage?

If I wanted 72V from the Satiator, wouldnt a simple series charger setup work?
Maybe the ground isolated Dell 60A PSU first, and the Satiator and everythings locked into whatevers lowest.

Parallel is to increase amperage.
Series is to increase voltage.

I often see parallel when you're using a "dumb" power supply to get a battery close to charge, then a smart-but-slower charger to balance and sneak up on the final charge. On a large battery this can change charging from a multi hour affair into just over 1 hour. (aka pump 1c until its 80% or so, then swap to the smart charger)


Series of course is just to bump up the voltage.... but I dont know how well that works with a "smart" charger....

 

[rhinejuice]

Here : http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/chargers/cycle-satiator.html
From there, brochure link goes to 1.2 revision.
Same from here: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html

Wait..
Here: http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/documents.html
Under Satiator zone, you have "satiator family 2015" leading to 1.3 document.
http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/Grin_SatiatorV1.3_WEB.pdf

When can we buy the 72v model if the brochure is done then.......

 

[Ykick]

Here : http://www.ebikes.ca/shop/ebike-parts/chargers/cycle-satiator.html
From there, brochure link goes to 1.2 revision.
Same from here: http://www.ebikes.ca/product-info/cycle-satiator.html

Wait..
Here: http://www.ebikes.ca/learn/documents.html
Under Satiator zone, you have "satiator family 2015" leading to 1.3 document.
http://www.ebikes.ca/documents/Grin_SatiatorV1.3_WEB.pdf

When can we buy the 72v model if the brochure is done then.......

'been trying to figure that one out too...??? I shouldn't be in such a rush to spend $300+ USD but dammit I want one of these for 67V.

 

[Marc S.]

Why would you parallel charge? to increase amperage?

If I wanted 72V from the Satiator, wouldnt a simple series charger setup work?
Maybe the ground isolated Dell 60A PSU first, and the Satiator and everythings locked into whatevers lowest.

Go back to page 3 of this thread, there you find a discussion about charging with the Satiator and a power supply connected in serial.

 

[Simple818]

So just to get it right, the charger tops off at 60v or is it 67.2 for a 16s li-ion pack charged to 4.2 per cell?

 

[justin_le]

So just to get it right, the charger tops off at 60v or is it 67.2 for a 16s li-ion pack charged to 4.2 per cell?

With the current V1.008 firmware you can set the max to 63V with any of the charge chemistries, which is lets you fully charge a 15s pack to 4.2V/cell, but not a 16s pack.
With the V0.9X and earlier firmware it the max full voltage was limited to 60V for lithium profiles, and only lead and NiMH were allowed to reach the hardware peak of 63V.

 

[Simple818]

Thanks Justin. I guess the voltage is limited by the 63 volt caps. So close to working for my pack yet so far away. Not to keep hounding the issue but I willing to bet that there are a lot people waiting for the higher voltage version to be released.