The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[Marc S.]

Certified by you is good enough for me, LOL....

+1

 

[rhinejuice]

Yes please! Bump that pilot run Put me down for one too please Justin! More than happy with your "certification"

 

[rhinejuice]

Oh I fear the pilot run won't be the 220/240v plug in the wall option in looking for???

 

[parabellum]

Oh I fear the pilot run won't be the 220/240v plug in the wall option in looking for???

Look first post, by Justin

....corrected 100-240V input, 95% efficiency, graphic display screen etc.

Plug itself is easy to change. :wink:

 

[Alan B]

No need to change a plug, it uses a standard type cordset.

 

[rhinejuice]

Sweet

 

[justin_le]

Hey folks, well here is V0.99j, which should have all the core functionality that we first dreamed of when imagining the ideal ebike charger. If everything tests well then it will become the long awaited V1.0 firmware release, just under a year after we had the first Beta devices out with 0.8X firwmare.
For windows:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Suite_Windows_v0.99j.exe
For Linux:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Suite_Linux_v0.99j.tar.gz
(MacOS will have to wait till next week)

If you have customized profiles on your current satiator which you'd like to keep, then you'll want to first use the old software tool to save those profiles to an XML file, so that you can then re-open them in the new suite. You won't be able to update the firmware and keep the original profiles on the device as the profile structure has changed around quite a bit.

To update the firmware, set the Satiator in bootloader mode, then go to File->Update Satiator Firmware. Do not click the green "Connect" button at this stage, as you'll get an error message since the old profiles on the charger won't mach the format that the software is expecting. When you click the browse button for the firmware file, you should see the v0.99j.satiator file in the default directory, choose that. Then on the advanced tab, click the button "Overwrite Profile Data" since the old profiles are no longer legible, and then hit "Update Firmware"



The new software tool is designed to automatically keep the Satiator in bootloader mode until you explicitly hit the red "Disconnect" button, as we found that there were just too many pop-up and confirmation windows. We've also made it so that whenever you change any settings, there will be asterisk by that profile * indicating that it hasn't yet been saved to the Satiator, and as soon as you hit "Save Data" then the asterisk will go away. There is no need to explicitly save each profile after making edits.

Most of the firmware enhancements I summarized on this earlier post here:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=1073604#p1073604
The enhanced graph view is of course really cool. It will scale current either 0-4A or 0-8A, and the voltage will be scaled from Vmax/2 to Vmax. One of the things we worked on was enhancing the thermal rollback behavior into an integral rather than proportional control loop, and the graphing plot of amps vs time was pretty useful to spot oscillations from too much gain like this:


Some other changes include the following:

• Charge Profile Titles can now be 11 characters, and subtitles 13 characters (used to be 10 char and 11 char)
• New charge profile creating a scrolling list rather than paginated
• Can force start through a short circuit fault
• Can escape from any Power Fault or other error message by pressing button
• "Connect Battery" screen shows last charge Ah, so you don't loose this if a pack is unplugged
• Main charge screen now toggles between showing Ah and Wh
• Battery temperature is shown on any type of profile if a thermistor is detected between pins 2 and 3 of XLR plug

The additional profiles stats and the like are mirrored on the Software Suite. For instance, you can view the statistics of each profile, and these statistics will be preserved if you move the profile up and down and edit the settings. However, there is no way to create statistics with a new profile or modify them on an existing unit, the only way to build up stats is to do a bunch of charging.


You can also now edit the device settings from the software for changing screen brightess, cable resistance etc.


And finally, if you click the Help ->About Device it will now the lifetime stats on the Charger. Note that all the lifetime statistics and profile statistics will only start accumulating once you have this new firmware installed. It will not suddenly show your historic charge cycles from the 0.916 and earlier firmwares.

So please everyone have a go at installing this and letting us know if there's anything unusual going on. I should mention that the thermal rollback temp is increased to 75oC at the moment, but we'll probably restore this back to 70oC for 1.0. So if you notice the device running a tad hotter and putting in more power before thermal rollback, this is why.

 

[justin_le]

For those wondering about the charge graphics behavior, it works as follows:

Voltage Scaling = Vmax/2 to Vmax, with the max voltage being up to 75% of the screen height

Current Scaling = 0-4 Amps if profile is <=4A, and 0-8A if profile bulk current is >4A. Full scale is 60% of screen height

Horizontal Scaling = Time Axis, auto adjusting as the charge progresses. Time axis keeps growing for 30 minutes after Charge Complete is reached, and then stops

Both the starting voltage and ending voltage are shown on the top, in order to illustrate the voltage scale and let you know exactly where the charging is at. The text "DONE" will appear between these voltage readings when charge complete has occurred.



The plot above shows a 48V 20Ah Allcell pack initially at 44.5V volts being charged with a 7A profile. You can see the first 3rd of the charge it's at a constant 7 amps, then for the next 3rd the current is reduced to ~6A while the Satiator is in thermal rollback to about 330 watts on this hot day, and then the last 3rd shows the current decay during the CV stage, which ended at 54.4 Volts. Each tic bar on the time axis represents 15 minutes at this scaling.

 

[BVH]

Well if I can do it wrong, then I will. Using the older version of the editor, I exported my custom profiles then exited the program. Downloaded the new suite and put the S in bootloader mode. Then launched the new suite and hit the green button and I get the message "An error occurred while importing profiles from HEX. Invalid type field. Please try again". So I went back in under the old suite and erased all profiles. Then I was no longer able to get into bootloader mode until I created 1 profile. Tried again to connect using the new suite and get the same message. Where do I go from here? Using Windows 7 and the Windows suite you linked to above.

 

[tomjasz]

(MacOS will have to wait till next week)

Well worth the wait! The fact you have had the vision to make all your products OS X friendly is a dream come true. I continue to be WOWED! But a whole week! :wink:

 

[justin_le]

Well if I can do it wrong, then I will. Using the older version of the editor, I exported my custom profiles then exited the program. Downloaded the new suite and put the S in bootloader mode. Then launched the new suite and hit the green button and I get the message "An error occurred while importing profiles from HEX. Invalid type field. Please try again". So I went back in under the old suite and erased all profiles.

Hi BVH, did you follow the note to put a check in the checkbox that says "delete profile data" when you did the firmware upload? If not, repeat and do that, since the old profile structure on the Satiator will no longer be compatible with the new software if you don't delete and overwrite it. Hopefully it's just that, so let me know.

Then I was no longer able to get into bootloader mode until I created 1 profile.

Remember you can always get into bootloader mode by pressing the lower button when you power on the device too. But yeah right now if the Satiator doesn't have any valid profiles at all active on it then it will force you to choose/create one before the double-button press will take you to the setup menu. That's a bit of an oversight forcing an extra step that we'll address.

 

[amberwolf]

For those wondering about the charge graphics behavior, it works as follows:

Voltage Scaling = Vmax/2 to Vmax, with the max voltage being up to 75% of the screen height

It's probably just me, but that seems like a wierd way to do it, as it won't have nearly the detail it could have (not like it should matter much, but it seems like a waste of capability, especially if troubleshooting a pack could ever be done from the charging graphs).


I can't think of a typical pack that would ever be low enough at full discharge to be anywhere near half it's full voltage, so lots (most?) of the vertical real estate is wasted space if the lowest a voltage graph bar ever shows is half the full charge state.

Even a single NiCd cell would be more than half it's full voltage at empty, but that would be the closest I can think of out of things this charger would probably be used for.


I would guess that most packs are going to be Lithium of some flavor, probably 3s-4s "12v-16v" (lighting) to 12-14s (traction), and various setups in between, and on those half of vmax (full charge) is pretty far below what should be LVC for them, so not much of the graph will ever be used, even if they get discharged fully in use.

Couple of examples of my own packs to see if I am seeing this in my head correctly (assuming I did the math right...which I might not have):

Lighting pack 4s NMC @ 3.6v/cell LVC would be 14.4v at LVC, while full at 4.1V/cell would be 16.4V at HVC (vmax). So 8.2v for bottom of the screen, and lowest part of graph used for voltage would be 14.4V, just a bit below halfway down the graph, then 16.4V at the top edge of the graph. Unused range is 8.2-14.4v. Only about a third or less of the graph is ever used, the red area shown below.



14s NMC @3.6v/cell 50.4v LVC, 4.1v/cell 58.4v HVC. Half of 58.4v is 29.2v. Unused range is then from 29.2-50.4v. Maybe a quarter or less of the graph is ever used.

 

[BVH]

I see what I was doing wrong. After launching the program, I was clicking the green connect icon, and then clicking the big "connect" button instead of going up to FILE/Update Firmware ect, ect process. All is good now. I remeasured my total cable resistance with my calibrated 4-wire Kelvin benchmeter and leads and got the same as before .161 Ohms (with my added cables and Watt meter in-line) so I set the Satiator at .2 as you suggested a while back. You mentioned in that past post that I could set it a bit higher if I desired a bit shorter time in CV. What would be a good setting?

Button pushing and resultant cursor position change speed is a lot faster now than in .916.

 

[justin_le]

For those wondering about the charge graphics behavior, it works as follows:
Voltage Scaling = Vmax/2 to Vmax, with the max voltage being up to 75% of the screen height

It's probably just me, but that seems like a wierd way to do it, as it won't have nearly the detail it could have (not like it should matter much, but it seems like a waste of capability, especially if troubleshooting a pack could ever be done from the charging graphs).

Hey Amberwolf, that's true, but there's also a tradeoff decision between graph resolution and having a graph that looks as we expect a voltage charge graph to look like. If we start with it scaling just at the starting voltage of the charge, and ending at Vmax, then the resolution is a max but look of the charge curve would always be some curvy line going diagonally upwards. I chose 50% of vmax knowing that most flat batteries would be at about 75% of VMax at the start of charging, and the resulting voltage plot would almost always be taller than the current plot, so the current plot is effectively contained within the vertical lines of the voltage window. Consider it aesthetics as much as anything.

The longer term plan (Version 1.1 firmware!) will be that you'll be able to scroll left and right across the plot graph with a cursor which would show numerically the voltage and current at that point, so anyone needing to use the graph more than just qualitatively could do so.

 

[justin_le]

I see what I was doing wrong. After launching the program, I was clicking the green connect icon, and then clicking the big "connect" button instead of going up to FILE/Update Firmware ect, ect process. All is good now.

Hey, great to hear. Has anybody else had issues with this latest software and firmware upload? It would be really great if all those who follow this thread and have a Satiator give it a go so we know that the code is fairly proven before have the V1.0 launch party and all.
For windows:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Suite_Windows_v0.99j.exe
For Linux:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Suite_Linux_v0.99j.tar.gz

Please install!

I remeasured my total cable resistance with my calibrated 4-wire Kelvin benchmeter and leads and got the same as before .161 Ohms (with my added cables and Watt meter in-line) so I set the Satiator at .2 as you suggested a while back. You mentioned in that past post that I could set it a bit higher if I desired a bit shorter time in CV. What would be a good setting?

Ideally you would set it at cable resistance + battery internal resistance. If you have a CA3 on your ebike, then you should see a value for RBatt in the battery statistics screen, and this would be a good starting number to use. If it oscillates at the end of charging from current going on and off repeatedly, then you need to go lower. Just be aware when you set the cable resistance to include the pack resistance, then the terminals of the battery will get higher than your setpoint voltage, and if you have a BMS and are doing a full charge then the BMS will for sure trip. But if you are doing a charge to like 4.1 or 4.05 V/cell, then you should be able to do this with pretty good effect even on a BMS protected pack.

 

[TyJedi]

Looking forward to installing the update soon on my Mac! Nice new features, that's for sure!

Question regarding the screen saver: Mine only seems to kick in when there is a battery connected to the satiator.

I've noticed this a couple times when I forgot to hook the battery back up to the satiator at the end of the day. It seems to be the regular bright screen that says "Connect Charger" with my custom profile right below. I've gone away for periods of time to test it, and it never kicks on.

I am probably missing something obvious, but it is baffling me. Admittedly, I still consider myself pretty new to all of this.

Thanks,

Ty

 

[mrbill]

Has anybody else had issues with this latest software and firmware upload? It would be really great if all those who follow this thread and have a Satiator give it a go so we know that the code is fairly proven before have the V1.0 launch party and all.
For windows:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Suite_Windows_v0.99j.exe
For Linux:
http://www.ebikes.ca/downloads/Satiator_Suite_Linux_v0.99j.tar.gz

Please install!

Well, since you asked...

I updated my two Satiators from 0.916 to 0.99j using the Windows updater on Win7 Pro. But I had two problems.

1) I had a hell of a time getting connected to the Satiator. I'd put the Satiator in "Connect to PC" mode, then press the Connect button, but would get an error about some data being in the wrong format whereupon the Satiator would revert unbidden to normal mode. I finally was able to connect consistently by making sure that I had no Profile list, either default or my own, loaded into the Software prior to connecting. If I had any profiles listed, the software wouldn't connect.

Since the Satiator was updated to 0.99j I am able to connect whether or not profiles exist in the left-hand pane. So, this isn't a long-term problem, just an issue for beta folks trying to update firmware from 0.916.

2) I discovered that the stereo 1/8" plug on the data cable is bad. The plug appears to be separated from the solder lugs at the hilt and spins freely. Fortunately, I have a spare CAV3 data cable that does work.

To end this on a positive note...

I like what you've done with the charge graph, the persistence of information display following disconnect, and the added features in the software suite. Well done.

 

[neptronix]

I have a question about longterm 63v operation.

I want to set up at 15S battery pack and charge it to 62.5v at 5.5 amps indefinitely.

Am i stretching the limits of this charger doing that? I'm assuming that you're using some components with maximum voltages right around that point..

Preferably, i'd like to run 16S or 18S and am waiting for a higher voltage version of this to come out.. but 15S will do the job.

Sidenote: i would be happy to pay for a pre-production or beta version of a 70-100v unit, if the opportunity exists

 

[justin_le]

I have a question about longterm 63v operation.
I want to set up at 15S battery pack and charge it to 62.5v at 5.5 amps indefinitely.
Am i stretching the limits of this charger doing that?

Not really. Depending on your ambient environment you might hit thermal rollback and find yourself with with it sitting steady and slightly less than 5.5A, but it's not going to be stressful.

I'm assuming that you're using some components with maximum voltages right around that point..

There are 63V bus capacitors on the output, but I wouldn't worry about running right near their rated voltages since there is always quite a decent margin between that and the voltage they can actually take without damage. AND, the caps are actually quite accessible to replace if after several years this did take its toll.

Preferably, i'd like to run 16S or 18S and am waiting for a higher voltage version of this to come out.. but 15S will do the job.

I'll say this, if you already have 16s or 18s pack configurations at your disposal then I wouldn't bother to remake something to be 15s just to squeeze it in with this charger. You'll be able to have your high voltage cake and eat it too.

 

[BVH]

Well, since you asked...

I updated my two Satiators from 0.916 to 0.99j using the Windows updater on Win7 Pro. But I had two problems.

1) I had a hell of a time getting connected to the Satiator. I'd put the Satiator in "Connect to PC" mode, then press the Connect button, but would get an error about some data being in the wrong format whereupon the Satiator would revert unbidden to normal mode. I finally was able to connect consistently by making sure that I had no Profile list, either default or my own, loaded into the Software prior to connecting. If I had any profiles listed, the software wouldn't connect.

Just taking a guess here....This sounds close to what I was trying to do if I am reading it right. I'd click the green CONNECT icon in the upper left corner then I would click the big CONNECT button in the window that opened and would get the "wrong format" error. If I had read the word-by-word instruction Justin posted closer, I would have seen that once I clicked the green CONNECT icon, I should have gone to "File" on the upper menu bar, then clicked "check for firmware update" then to "Update Firmware", then the advanced button, clicked delete profiles and finally clicked the big CONNECT button. Maybe this will help others not to make the same error I did.

 

[neptronix]

That's good to know that it can stomach 15S voltages.
Probably best to wait for the 72v version to reconfigure my pack though. Sounds like it is not too far out.

 

[Alan B]

Paypal ready.

 

[justin_le]

Well, since you asked...

I updated my two Satiators from 0.916 to 0.99j using the Windows updater on Win7 Pro. But I had two problems.

1) I had a hell of a time getting connected to the Satiator. I'd put the Satiator in "Connect to PC" mode, then press the Connect button, but would get an error about some data being in the wrong format whereupon the Satiator would revert unbidden to normal mode. I finally was able to connect consistently by making sure that I had no Profile list, either default or my own, loaded into the Software prior to connecting. If I had any profiles listed, the software wouldn't connect.

Just taking a guess here....This sounds close to what I was trying to do if I am reading it right. I'd click the green CONNECT icon in the upper left corner then I would click the big CONNECT button in the window that opened and would get the "wrong format" error. If I had read the word-by-word instruction Justin posted closer, I would have seen that once I clicked the green CONNECT icon, I should have gone to "File" on the upper menu bar, then clicked "check for firmware update" then to "Update Firmware", then the advanced button, clicked delete profiles and finally clicked the big CONNECT button. Maybe this will help others not to make the same error I did.

Indeed. My description of the process was a bit clumsy and incorrect by suggesting to click Connect first, and I'm going to go back to that post and update things to be more clear. You can in fact update the firmware with the old software tool if you point it to the v0.99j.satiator file, it's just that once you do this then the software will no longer recognize any of the profiles now loaded on the device. That's also why we haven't made it so that this file shows up when you click on "check for latest firmware". Next to implement I guess is the "check for latest software" link instead!

 

[rhinejuice]

Hi Justin I'm more than happy to pre pay for the new high voltage model too if it helps. I imagine there will be a few of us in Australia interested in doing the same.

 

[johnrobholmes]

Been rocking the crap out of my charger with nothing but great results, from a few cycles per week to a few per day. I'll update firmwares and see how it does.