The first problem with the battery and motor hub

[Smurf2]

Hi. It seems that I have my first real problem with the battery. But I hope that is just connectors...

The battery is stuck and won't go out, even if unlocked!

How it started: One day I charged the battery to about 90% and went to work. After I was returning, the battery on throttle started acting strangely. A voltmeter started fast-changing values, like when I set the throttle, it jumping like 60% to 40% to 20% to 0% (not exactly) and then went up and down continuously. Then stay for a while at 0%. Throttle not working! Then again working normally for a few minutes.
I come home in third PAS gear, easy, somehow it works like that.

I recharged it fully and tomorrow again went to work. It worked normally for about 7 km (how is that possible?), then again started happening. It shows 0%. No throttle. I removed the easy battery on the road to see if it was seating good in connectors, I didn't see anything strange. Return the battery back and I came to work in PAS 3.

There, I had a time to better check connectors, but guess what, battery won't come out anymore!

Is it "stuck" somehow connected to battery failure, like maybe connectors are melted? I hope not.
I think that is just a stuck screw that goes from the battery holder to the bike frame (I found a picture of how it looks inside). Maybe the connector jack moved, or maybe something else.

Ok. First, let's pull the battery out somehow. Don't tell me about the battery lock cylinder (if you call it that), cylinder works fine and locks/unlocks without a problem.

My idea is to remove the 4 zip ties to remove the battery with holder together from frame, and then try to remove it from the inside of the bracket. But then I don't have an idea of how it would go out, because of that screw in the frame.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Strange sounds still persist!

Diagnostic:

Can you make the sound by spinning the wheel by hand?

Or if it's a mid-drive, by pedaling with and/or without load?

Do you feel any scraping or vibration when you rotate the motor by hand? Is it obvious it happens when the wheel/motor or cranks go through a particular position?

 

[Transit Artist]

Hi. It seems that I have my first real problem with the battery. But I hope that is just connectors...

The battery is stuck and won't go out, even if unlocked!

How it started: One day I charged the battery to about 90% and went to work. After I was returning, the battery on throttle started acting strangely. A voltmeter started fast-changing values, like when I set the throttle, it jumping like 60% to 40% to 20% to 0% (not exactly) and then went up and down continuously. Then stay for a while at 0%. Throttle not working! Then again working normally for a few minutes.
I come home in third PAS gear, easy, somehow it works like that.

I recharged it fully and tomorrow again went to work. It worked normally for about 7 km (how is that possible?), then again started happening. It shows 0%. No throttle. I removed the easy battery on the road to see if it was seating good in connectors, I didn't see anything strange. Return the battery back and I came to work in PAS 3.

I have the exact same issues. I was told by a local ebike customizer, (if i remember correctly, because only the negative sided was losing connection), that higher surges spark failure. While searching for parts I'm forced to accelerate slowly, which means I can't really use my highly sensitive throttle until I'm rolling at a speed that doesn't require great thrust. Even then I need to refrain from acceleration over any tiny bumps or I'll lose power. Sometimes my throttle shuts off but my PAS works and other times the opposite happens with a 30H error (with Grin's supplied display and Phaserunner controller. would love an explanation for why that alternates). My connectors were chewed up, more so on one side like yours, but mine only stutters when jostled suggesting a disconnection.
After stalled response from the brand I was able to communicate with the manufacturer through Alibaba, not AliExpress, and hope to be ordering the original connectors momentarily. Though this does not help with the eventual erosion of connectors, my issue can at least be mitigated by slow and gentle insertion of the battery.

Here are my problems: Can This Worn Connector be Causing My Power Loss?

 

[Smurf2]

Diagnostic:

Can you make the sound by spinning the wheel by hand?

Or if it's a mid-drive, by pedaling with and/or without load?

Do you feel any scraping or vibration when you rotate the motor by hand? Is it obvious it happens when the wheel/motor or cranks go through a particular position?

Finally someone who asks diagnostic.

I not get this sound. Sound seems normal when spinning the wheel by hand. It seems that happened only on load, on start.
Do you wish I test at a higher speed with a load? I am afraid of that.

Is it noise all the time in high speed? I think it is not, but I need to test it.

Can be connectors burn again if I drive bike and speed up a bit (to see is there noise after acceleration)?

Is it obvious it happens when the wheel/motor or cranks go through a particular position?

No. The sound is when accelerating with a load.

The sound throttle on empty seems normal in this video.

Look my second video: (upside down)

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Can be connectors burn again if I drive bike and speed up a bit

If that's going to happen you might as well get it over with and get on with replacing the inadequate parts.

 

[Smurf2]

If that's going to happen you might as well get it over with and get on with replacing the inadequate parts.

What can I try to do next?

I didn't open the controller box yet because it is tricky to screw it back. I have a multimeter.

I remember that one day I went to the store and the battery was really empty. I think that I shut off the battery and drive home like that. I don't remember exactly, I usually just put PAS to 0, if I want to do some training, but I think maybe I disconnected the battery. That can burn the controller?

 

[offGridDownUnder]

That can burn the controller?

I haven't heard of that. I don't know everything, so I won't say "it can't happen", but with the knowledge I have, I would not let that thought stop me from pedaling the bike with no battery connected.

If anything, I would decide that if the system was that fragile, I'd like to know now and replace it instead of finding out the hard way some day when the battery was discharged and I needed to get home.

So, no, I won't buy you a new controller if yours is the one really crappy design in the world that can't stand being pedaled with no battery connected and you take my advice, but my advice is to disconnect the battery and pedal the bike and find out what you can from that.

Let us know what you discover.

 

[Smurf2]

but my advice is to disconnect the battery and pedal the bike and find out what you can from that..

These days when I moved out the connector on the battery, I drove the bike a few times without the battery. There is not a noise. It has something to do with electricity.

If there are bad magnets on the motor hub, maybe noise will be heard without the battery. But I don't hear.

I will open the controller case to check the connectors.

 

[Transit Artist]

The 1st video sounds exactly like the first second of the 2nd second. My connection, and likely yours, surged (under load) and is likely sparking causing a stuttering of power until it finally gives. Because it requires more power during acceleration under load your motor is struggling to reach speed and less resistance, thus the initial second of build-up to speed is chopped up and struggling to reach a spin with less resistance. I believe you are just hearing a longer, drawn-out acceleration with electrical gaps. Mine would also catch a cadence in top speeds and only stutter while moving without shutting off for a while which results in a similar noise as the motor keeps stopping and winding up.

I thought you'd replaced this connection already but if not, try running the bike upside-down while gently wiggling the battery as though it were moving to simulate the loss of connection and see if it doesn't persist. You might also need to test it with a full/fast press of the throttle if you're attempting to simulate more like what it draws under load. I believe fixing the connection with eradicate your problem.

 

[Smurf2]

The 1st video sounds exactly like the first second of the 2nd second

Don't get anything you say.

Because it requires more power during acceleration under load your motor is struggling to reach speed and less resistance, thus the initial second of build-up to speed is chopped up and struggling to reach a spin with less resistance.
I think you are right.

I thought you'd replaced this connection already but if not, try running the bike upside-down while gently wiggling the battery as though it were moving to simulate the loss of connection and see if it doesn't persist

I can't. My battery now sits on the new connectors, which are so tight that the battery can't be moved anymore (before it was able to move like 5mm in/out).

I believe fixing the connection with eradicate your problem.

I fixed battery connectors.
Now I checked all 5 "rear"(**) connectors.
On one xt60 I removed e-tape and it looks bad from the side. I think it is not a problem, because we will see a burning mark there, right?

(**) But among others, some reminder for those who do not follow me, I had a lot of work with the BUS cable, which I shortened. Also 2x brake sensors 5v. And most connectors were inverted
(compared to Bafang). So I pulled 2x 5v wire from the throttle to brake sensors. We will consider that all FRONT connectors and joint works.

 

[Transit Artist]

The 1st video sounds exactly like the first second of the 2nd second
Don't get anything you say.

typo, sorry. drop the last word. The first second of acceleration in both videos sound the same to me with slightly different volume, just that in the first video you never reach cruising speed where your power surge subsides. I am totally guessing here but I assume from experiencing that the sparking XT60 (or any loose power connections) causes a stutter in power, (like morse code), and the motor is struggling to get past the first phase, prolonging what sounds normal in the first second of the 2nd video to be a longer/drawn out gargling/grinding acceleration in the 1st.

I fixed battery connectors.
Now I checked all 5 "rear"(**) connectors.
On one xt60 I removed e-tape and it looks bad from the side. I think it is not a problem, because we will see a burning mark there, right?

I was referring to battery connections which that XT60 is still a part of, right? So rather than wiggle the battery, move the wire while accelerating upside down. Point is all power lines and connectors should obviously be fixed to properly test.

 

[Smurf2]

Thsnks @Transit Artist
I tested it today on the road at PAS-2 full.
The noise disappears when the bike gets to a constant speed, as we considered. It appears only at acceleration. And I didn't see battery voltage drop.

In upside down bike position, I held the throttle at a constant speed and wiggled the wire. I have not found any breakage

move the wire while accelerating upside down.

Unfortunately, when accelerating upside down, that noise does not appear, because there is no load I wish that I can wiggle the wire when driving and accelerating, but I can't.

I can only now try to build the old BUS (inverted) with the old controller and display and throttle, to check if the old controller will be better. I will just hang all that with tape to the frame, just temporarily.

If we eliminate the controller, then I will order a new motor or maybe try to repair it.

 

[Smurf2]

Ok guys, I tried the old controller and it is the same. It's not a controller.

Even, sometimes when I add throttle there is no noise, but it is rare.

A similar thing happened from the beginning:
Guys, if you read my Post#4. I talked about that noise (or similar) was from the beginning, when I bought the bike kit!.
"Sometimes" when I was hit throttle I got that noise, but evrtytime it appears, I solved that by quick releasing the throttle, then adding throttle again. After that the noise disappeared.
It sounds like it "won't seat in the gear" from the first time, but want from second time. That was not always, maybe it depends is it bike stationary, is it gradient, how much add throttle when is stationarry, what speed am I currently driving at, I don't know. But that was similar from the beginning.

The difference is that now sound is louder, longer few times and more often.

So maybe from beginning was something cracked or loose inside the hub motor and that increased with time (afer 9T+km)?

Google says that we can open a hub motor with the spikes on. Do I try it to see what is happening inside or drive like that? Maybe it's just a hall sensor.

EDIT:
I found exactly sound _in this video_.
They say in comments that are planetary gears or magnets...

 

[offGridDownUnder]

I think it is not a problem, because we will see a burning mark there, right?

Well, maybe corrosion can also be a problem.


Regarding disassembling the motor, more power to you. The knowledge and experience will be valuable. But it is work, and there can be surprises - like circlips not immediately visible ("is it corroded? why won't it come apart?"). On the All-Axle I have, there is a small connector for the torque sensor in the freehub and the order of disassembly is important.

So, try to find a manual or a video showing the steps before taking the motor apart? I hate breaking parts and needing to wait for a replacement before I can go on.

 

[Smurf2]

Well, maybe corrosion can also be a problem.

Maybe. A few days of rain I had in the past. But then will be in motor, not on connectors, they are fine.

And guys, I finally had time to make a better video. Maybe you will have more ideas now.
And would you drive like that?

My third video:

 

[Matt Gruber]

buy a new wheel assembly, put it on, then maybe take apart the old motor when you figure out how.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Given the clues, I also suspect motor by now. I'd study videos, drawings, or accounts of disassembling the motor, collect any tools or supplies (replacement gaskets?) and take it apart with good light and a comfortable bench. When I'm not sure, strong light and a close look helps (why is everything colored black?)

I'd also take pictures at each step - being able to look back and see how something was assembled before has saved my bacon several times. I try to wear thin work gloves so I can take them off, not get grease on my phone or camera, and put them back on for the next disassembly step - otherwise I might rush through.

If you can afford a replacement, as mentioned, that makes it so much easier. You could have a working ride, which takes the pressure off, some proof that the motor is the problem, and in time, maybe a working spare when this is fixed. I like having spares.

Clean the outside well before you open it up, including the rim so junk doesn't drop down from that into the open motor ("was that piece of dirt the problem, or did that just fall down now?"). I would leave the tire on to protect the rim, but clean it. I did this last night in my shower with a stiff brush and let it dry overnight, although I'm just replacing a tire. A tub of water will do the job.

 

[Smurf2]

Thanks for advices.
I found thousands of videos on how to do that.
I see there are no little parts that might fall off? (Bafang hub). It comes out in one piece and planetary gears are at the end of the back side of the motor.
To move out my dad or brother can help me with strength.

I can buy, but I am a little afraid of buying a new motor with a rim because I risk:
- would it work with my KT controller and display, or will it only work with the Bafang brand?
- would be rim be slightly bigger or smaller for my Schwalbe Marathon tire (I don't mean to buy a tire again)?
- would the connector on the motor cable fit?
- would disk holes be placed in the same place (inner/outer), and would extra adjusting brake pads be needed?
- the rim was very light but very weak. The last rearrim was broken itself, because of the pressure of the tire! (those who followed my threads know that). Very dangerous.

 

[Sturmey]

Its amazing how a very small thing can make a hub motor wheel very noisy. The last noise problem I had was caused by the very tip of a single nylon planetary gear tooth partially breaking off and hinging over into the gap between the teeth. It was very hard to see with the grease and it was only when I used a toothpick to 'floss' between the gears that I discovered it.

 

[Smurf2]

Thanks for advices.
I found thousands of videos on how to do that.
I see there are no little parts that might fall off? (Bafang hub). It comes out in one piece and planetary gears are at the end of the back side of the motor.
To move out my dad or brother can help me with strength.

I can buy, but I am a little afraid of buying a new motor with a rim because I risk:
- would it work with my KT controller and display, or will it only work with the Bafang brand?
- would be rim be slightly bigger or smaller for my Schwalbe Marathon tire (I don't mean to buy a tire again)?
- would the connector on the motor cable fit?
- would disk holes be placed in the same place (inner/outer), and would extra adjusting brake pads be needed?
- the rim was very light but very weak. The last rearrim was broken itself, because of the pressure of the tire! (those who followed my threads know that). Very dangerous.

@offGridDownUnder what you think?

 

[offGridDownUnder]

@offGridDownUnder what you think?

I don't know better not to. Take your time, start early enough to not rush, enjoy.

 

[Smurf2]

Clean the outside well before you open it up, including the rim so junk doesn't drop down from that into the open motor ("was that piece of dirt the problem, or did that just fall down now?"). I would leave the tire on to protect the rim, but clean it. I did this last night in my shower with a stiff brush and let it dry overnight, although I'm just replacing a tire. A tub of water will do the job.

I cleaned it with water, a brush, and a cloth.
Tomorrow I will start disassembling a hub.

What is this annoying wire? I had it covered by tape to not scratch my leg. It is sliding along the cable together with the black tube.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

What is this annoying wire?

It's a strain relief coil. It provides some armor for the outside of the cable, and also serves to mitigate sharp bends in the cable. It's typically seen at the end of a cable, possibly anchored to a connector where the cable exits, although it could be elsewhere on the cable if there's a bend.

If you can't re-bend the stray end, perhaps trim it?

 

[99t4]

What is this annoying wire? I had it covered by tape to not scratch my leg. It is sliding along the cable together with the black tube.

Should be down at the cable's exit from the axle, protecting it there as stated above. Shouldn't be sliding around. Somehow it got damaged or dislodged.

 

[Smurf2]

Hi @99t4. It's nice to see you again

I found an old picture where it was before, it seems it protects the cable angle. Now when the wire is already detached and sliding, maybe it's time to remove it completely?

Also, I found a little damaged outside cable. As I can see, it seems the inner wires are not damaged. I think that can't be a problem for this motor sound. I will protect it with tape or heat shrink before it goes worse.

Also, I found that one spoke is broken, on the motor side. But that replacement can wait for the next puncture of the tire.

I go now start disassembling a motor.

 

[Smurf2]

Guys, I expected a mess in the hub and destroyed gears, but instead, it looks supriselly good for 10K kilometers.

I tried to rotate gears by hand, it looks smooth and for now I don't see any missing teeth.

What now?
Maybe I don't need a new planetary gears?
Maybe just a full clean and grease?
Now the question will be is it really noise coming from the motor or somewhere else.

If you want _VIDEO_.

Do I must move out white gears or I can clean in this way? Does it matter is it left old grease under white wheels?
WD40 or just water and soap???