TSDZ2 wobble and creaky pedals

[marvin78]

I torqued that engine down hard enough to bend that plate slightly.. and the my bolt itself was visibly bent as well. But it wasn't able to move, those marks on the frame btw where from my first installmen before I put some heatshrink ( 3 layers ) over the little plate which seems to be working fine in preventing more wear marks.

Second image is the only engine orientation the motor will allow me to use that securing plate. While I would like the motor to be tilted up following the downtube as that would increase clearance a tiny bit. I sadly don't have any fabrication ability / tools, so making a custom bracket to mount that plate at the angle I would like is sadly out of the question.

Still kinda mad I can't find my clip pliers I know I have one of those universal one's with multiple attachments. Will remove this one from my bike and prepare my parcel for return. Just hope seller is now understanding of the issue, somehow they thought that me returning the engine within 14 days as is my buyers protection inside the EU would result in my ending up with a repaired engine for free :/ I have no idea how they thought that would work out, imho it's pretty simple:

I already ordered AND PAID for another engine, they are withholding shipping until I withdraw my dispute and 'use their warranty service' which would increase costs for me ( as opposed to them.. ). Thing is, I return the motor, they refund my order, and I told them to contact me when it's repaired I will buy the same engine as refurbished ( for the original price, as long as I get renewed factory warranty and all ). That way the end result is the same as using their 'warranty service', but I can not run into unexpected 'added costs', and it's fully within my rights.

I like the thing, I want more of them! If I see the markup placed on conversions build with these, I get all excited I could severely undercut those and still make a hefty profit. But that would require me to have trust in either my own ability to fix the things, or the level of technical support I can get.

It's a bit of a shame I am getting better tech support from you guys then from the seller / factory... though they did say it was probably the torque sensor but they are not sure.

 

[Elinx]

.... That way the end result is the same as using their 'warranty service', but I can not run into unexpected 'added costs', and it's fully within my rights.

You understand I hope, there is a difference between: to "have" your full rights and to "get" your full rights.
On Ali, sellers are very sensitive for disputes, bad reviews and a bad reputation.
In this case, the seller is actually holding you in hostage (by not sending the new motor) and you do the same with this dispute.
I hope it will be solved this way, but I have my doubts.
Normally you start a dispute if the seller isn't willing to cooperate for a solution.

 

[marvin78]

You know, there is a difference between: to "have" your full rights and to "get" your full rights.
Sellers (Chinese?) are very senstive for disputes, bad reviews and a bad reputation.
In this case, they are actually holding you in hostage, by blacklisting you and you do the same with this dispute.
I hope it will be solved this way.

Man, the story of my life... I don't know if it's my autism or if I'm just a prick for 'but those are the rules' ...

My dispute is not shared on their review site, I've told them I I love their product even if I have to return one, I told them I will be buying more if things work out well. I even said I only started the dispute for the reasons mentioned, to protect my position as EU buyer of good online. The orders I placed with them are fast, the service I got when I had issues with my other battery was excellent and when I ordered a battery from them to test if it was the other battery, it turned out it was.

I got nothing but love for them, but they couldn't tell me which steps I needed to do to try and fix it myself. I would have loved the same level of support from them as I got from you. I got nothing on 'sending it back to France for a month', I would rather be able to fix them here. Parts are available, there is a lot of community knowledge ( though I'm finding it incredibly hard to correlate everything, lots of old links just go to the top of the main thread and those 400 pages... yeah.. ). Wiki is great though, but that's mostly technical / firmware and not mechanical. I am pretty certain this issue I have should be within the abilities of something I would be able to diagnose and fix. I will look tomorrow for my clip pliers or get new one's, if I can fix that sound, the motor seems to be working ok otherwise...

 

[Elinx]

....

My dispute is not shared on their review site, ....
....Wiki is great though, but that's mostly technical / firmware and not mechanical. ....

If it is Ali, Ebay, Amazon or Paypal, the dispute is done by Ali, Ebay,Amazon or Paypal.
Because this is a third party, the seller has no influence what they decide (also you don't).

The Tsdz2 wiki has a complete section with (mechanical) problems

 

[marvin78]

Most is not mechnical though, but sure there is a lot still. It's alsno not 100% up to date, as I'm pretty certain we can install OSF on stock vlcd5 xh18 ect. Haven't done it yet, but I am looking forward to doing so when I get the motor installed and working 100% mechanically before modding starts.

About the dispute.. now I'm really unsure of what to do... but 'having rights' should be the best positions right.. ( I have severe issues trusting in the 'goodness' or intentions of other people, or businesses. Everyone always wants my money, and they are always holding back with what I would like in exchange... mean world I tell ya ).

 

[Elinx]

Most is not mechnical though, but sure there is a lot still. It's alsno not 100% up to date, as I'm pretty certain we can install OSF on stock vlcd5 xh18 ect. ...

The original OSF version wasn't for stock display (vlcd5, XH18). This is a seperated development with his own wiki

 

[marvin78]

In discussion with seller again, said I was more then happy to not return it if we could identify the issue so it can be fixed without having to send it in for a month for repairs and he was more then willing to work with me if I could identify the issue so he could send replacement parts if needed.

So I bought those pliers, got everything off untill here and I can't find anything which stands out of being a possible cause.

ps decided to try adding the extra bearing, not that it would fix the current issue


I'm a bit stuck here. removing the torque sensor shouldn't require me to remove remove the motor / clamshell?

There is quite some play. but not sure if normal?

Troubleshooting something would be easier if I had reference material, but so far except for that movement in the video I haven't seen something which would cause that sound. But since it was directly tied to the rotation / position of the crank arm and everything so far has been blank, I'm more and more afraid it can't be anything but the torque sensor since nothing else is directly attached and would only make those sounds when I put some pressure on the pedals ( can't get it to happen when rotating the pedals by hand ).

 

[marvin78]

You know what, I'm going to try to put everything together again from this point and just make sure everything is tight and correct, and try it one more time before going further ( especially since seller still hasn't given explicit written permission to break the warranty seal ( without actually voiding it )).

 

[raylo32]

Sounds like a good plan. And after your first short spin check it all over again. You will need to retorque the crank arms at least, them being square drive.

You know what, I'm going to try to put everything together again from this point and just make sure everything is tight and correct, and try it one more time before going further ( especially since seller still hasn't given explicit written permission to break the warranty seal ( without actually voiding it )).

 

[Elinx]

... But since it was directly tied to the rotation / position of the crank arm and everything so far has been blank, .....

Have you checked the hight of the PAS sensor?
Because you have some axial play on the torquesensor, it could that it be hitted with rotation of the maingear.

 

[marvin78]

Have you checked the hight of the PAS sensor?
Because you have some axial play on the torquesensor, it could that it be hitted with rotation of the maingear.

I think that's inside the motor casing, which I haven't gone to yet as I don't want to void that warranty seal It's all back now, and it feels .. better? But that's without being on the street with it, literally just got done and getting my coat to go out and try ( in summer... bleh it started so well around here )

edit:

Noise is gone.. so has my increased assistance in lower PAS though.. so I'm still not sure wth was wrong really. The bolts holding the clutch to the front sprocket were the only one's which felt suspect, the rest felt like it was a brand new motor which it is.

I'm glad the noise has gone, feels also more solid again though how much of that if confirmation bias I wouldn't know

100 meters in I turned around, went back up and closed the dispute. I feel a bit embarrassed tbh..

Going to take it on a longer ride right away, just need to put on some proper shoes or I'll tear up these sneaker soles on my flat's

 

[Elinx]

I think that's inside the motor casing, which I haven't gone to yet as I don't want to void that warranty seal ....

I understand.
For education you can always dissamble a virtual Tsdz2 for looking that place

 

[marvin78]

I understand.
For education you can always dissamble a virtual Tsdz2 for looking that place

I finally got it, 'save as' and then open

Is there one for the tsdz2b btw, as there are changes in the clutch, blue gear and spindle at the very least ( so there must be changes to the spindle bearings / housing )?

I'm still stumped as to what it was which caused that sound... I'm not certain at all it would be possible the possible loose bolts between clutch and front sprocket, that wouldn't make any sense to coincidentally align perfectly with vertical pedals.. been using spliced bottom brackets for so long, I'm afraid to admit I might not have torqued the cranks enough and and went on a wild goose chase..

 

[Elinx]

...

Is there one for the tsdz2b ....

I'm still stumped as to what it was which caused that sound... ...

No, but the changes aren't that big. The spindle isn't changed.
Only the main gear and blue reduction gear (clutch) and some minor things, like case etc.

Here you can see what I meant with the PAS hight and were it is located.

 

[marvin78]

I was checking for scorch / excessive wear marks, as explanation why the phrase : "you can cycle like normal without the motor on, without added resistance" actually means -> your previously RaceFace Isis BB which ran like butter, is now replaced by something which wouldn't mismatch a Walmart BSO ( so no Ozark and the likes, those actually run pretty well I'm told ).

Couldn't find anything. Seems everything runs free, just 'as designed' which isn't going to match a decent bottom bracket. To bad, I'm sure I am loosing so many wh from your battery just to counteract the internal resistance

 

[raylo32]

Cyclical bottom bracket "creaks" and other noises are common and hard to decipher exactly which part is causing a particular sound. You did what all good mechanics do, take it apart and put it back carefully together, with lube in strategic places. I had to do similar recently with my Photon. Works almost every single time.

I finally got it, 'save as' and then open

Is there one for the tsdz2b btw, as there are changes in the clutch, blue gear and spindle at the very least ( so there must be changes to the spindle bearings / housing )?

I'm still stumped as to what it was which caused that sound... I'm not certain at all it would be possible the possible loose bolts between clutch and front sprocket, that wouldn't make any sense to coincidentally align perfectly with vertical pedals.. been using spliced bottom brackets for so long, I'm afraid to admit I might not have torqued the cranks enough and and went on a wild goose chase..

 

[marvin78]

Did a ~60km ride today, mostly flat and didn't go on single single track. No creaks <3 Using lots of my trusted torque meter wrench attachment might have helped .

( 40nm is like 1/8 to 1/4 turn beyond what I can turn by hand... right? )

Had a lot of fun seeing the beach and riding home before the predicted rain storm got to close. Battery is at 46.9v so I have more as 40% left. I'm very amazed, expected more usage as I saw when I was riding single track but I guess it's the accelerations which cause that drain and a more sustained effort which is much faster, is actually using less energy since I can keep it rolling.

It does mean I would need a bigger battery if I wanted to go to the tracks near the dunes, have enough to have fun there and get back home. But this is more then enough to ride the closer tracks. And more then enough to get wherever I need to go efficiently and with some enjoyment ( as long as it doesn't rain.. I don't like riding in the rain :/ ).

 

[raylo32]

Sounds like a great ride. Yes but with 40% SOC really don't have much left. Maybe useable only down to 45.5 V or so. Folks here have somewhat differing opinions but most of us don't want to discharge our batteries below ~ 30% SOC for longevity.

Did a ~60km ride today, mostly flat and didn't go on single single track. No creaks <3 Using lots of my trusted torque meter wrench attachment might have helped .

( 40nm is like 1/8 to 1/4 turn beyond what I can turn by hand... right? )

Had a lot of fun seeing the beach and riding home before the predicted rain storm got to close. Battery is at 46.9v so I have more as 40% left. I'm very amazed, expected more usage as I saw when I was riding single track but I guess it's the accelerations which cause that drain and a more sustained effort which is much faster, is actually using less energy since I can keep it rolling.

It does mean I would need a bigger battery if I wanted to go to the tracks near the dunes, have enough to have fun there and get back home. But this is more then enough to ride the closer tracks. And more then enough to get wherever I need to go efficiently and with some enjoyment ( as long as it doesn't rain.. I don't like riding in the rain :/ ).

 

[marvin78]

Ahh I was keeping it above 20% at the very lowest, which is ~42v iirc. How much difference do you think that makes, discharging to 30% or 20%?

I was more worried that I can't set up my preferred load cycle, it just charges to 54v and I would love to have an automated setup which would keep my soc between 80 and 20 ( or 80 and 30 ).

Somehow I have this 20% stuck in my head, top 20% and bottom 20% should be avoided if possible. Which is why I don't like charging my battery each day over night like my 'green company e-waste bike seller' recommends. Having it sit at 100% when I don't even know if I'm going to ride enough to drop it below 80% the next day... yuk.

 

[raylo32]

I am no battery expert but I suppose 20% is probably OK. I believe that number is usually recommended for phones. And you gotta get home, whatever it takes. One effect on the ride when you start to get low is that if you really give it the gas the voltage might momentarily sag below the BMS cutoff and interrupt power. This is more of an issue on higher power motors than TSDZ2 but if you have it in max assist and very low SOC I suppose it could hapen. Bigger batteries with more parallel cell groups and thus higher amp delivery won't cut out as easily.

 

[marvin78]

I am no battery expert but I suppose 20% is probably OK. I believe that number is usually recommended for phones. And you gotta get home, whatever it takes. One effect on the ride when you start to get low is that if you really give it the gas the voltage might momentarily sag below the BMS cutoff and interrupt power. This is more of an issue on higher power motors than TSDZ2 but if you have it in max assist and very low SOC I suppose it could hapen. Bigger batteries with more parallel cell groups and thus higher amp delivery won't cut out as easily.

Or, if you have an especially crappy battery, this happens even with the battery full, needing me to stop, detach the xt60 connector for a couple of seconds before reconnecting. Turning bike on and off using power button didn't help, needed to interrupt battery / controller connection.

When I miscalculate and have to dig into the last few % to get home that would suck. But the benefit of this motor should be that I can limp mode leg power get it home even with no battery. Not that I would like that, even if the bike isn't much heavier as before, I can 200% feel the difference between a nicely made RaceFace bottom bracket I had installed, and the 'internal bearings' of my tsdz2b. That internal resistance would make me curse like an old sailor if I had to ride that for miles and miles to get home. But it's possible.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

I think you are too coutious about battery degradation. Samsung and other manufactures say in their data sheets that you should never discharge below 2.5V. BMS in battery cuts off power at 2.8V. After about 500 cycles 0-100%-0 battery capacity drops to ~80%. How many times do you charge your battery in the year? 50 or less?

Another thing. You should always charge to 100% your e-bike battery Because most bms balance sections at the end of charging process. If you unplug at 80% then you may end up with slightly unbalanced sections. This will get worse with every discharging/charging cycle.

 

[marvin78]

I think you are too coutious about battery degradation. Samsung and other manufactures say in their data sheets that you should never discharge below 2.5V. BMS in battery cuts off power at 2.8V. After about 500 cycles 0-100%-0 battery capacity drops to ~80%. How many times do you charge your battery in the year? 50 or less?

I'm also fairly certain they do acknowledge that deep discharges will lessen expected cycle count. I'm not saying you're wrong btw, just that for me personally as long as I can, I would rather keep my cycles more shallow.

Another thing. You should always charge to 100% your e-bike battery Because most bms balance sections at the end of charging process. If you unplug at 80% then you may end up with slightly unbalanced sections. This will get worse with every discharging/charging cycle.

Which is why if I would program a bms for myself, I would have it balance at a lower soc. Now I charge based on capacity left and plans for the next day. So if I have 20km left and don't have anything planned for the next day which exceeds that, I would not charge it in between those days.

The most scared I am about my battery is my charging it to 100% and then having it sit there for days while I almost don't use it. The degradation of charged lithium batteries at house/room temperature is pretty awful.

So basically:
1. try to not touch the bottom 20% except for emergencies.
2. do not have a charged battery not being used

With my usage pattern this automatically leads to not wanting to charge every day. And if I had a heavier usage pattern, and I could afford it beforehand, I would still over provision my battery like this.

Manufacturers can write all they want. They also all claim I should be able to do 140km on a certain charge.. which you never will reach since there is no international testing standard ( and they don't put bikes in a wind tunnel on rollers afaik, it's just some 'calculations' ).

edit: the only thing which might worry me is that I could have sections becoming imbalanced during usage in the days I don't ride as much, and since I don't recharge them since I haven't used their capacity it would allow the imbalance to perpetuate longer.

In that case, I should have chosen a smaller battery. Or have multiple, keep that at ~40% charge ( which degrades capacity the least afaik ) and only charge the one I plan on using. But this is getting into a lot of micro management, to which the question is always: is it worth it. I don't know.

 

[Atak_Snajpera]

You can buy so called Smart bms

They allow balancing at custom voltage. For example 4.0V.

 

[marvin78]

I looked into that ->

Smart Bms voor Fietsaccu's (60x80mm) this is that bms ( afaik ) and the claim it is suited for max 500w motors. Since I eventually want to end up with, after installing the cooling kit, a 750w minimal output capable bike.

But yes. otherwise this would allow me to sett all parameters myself.