Votol EM-100 & EM-150 controllers

[j bjork]

In some of the programs you can switch phases and halls, but you dont seem to have that. So you may have to do it manually.
But you can start by changing the hall angle from -120 to 120 ( maybe 60 and -60 can be useful too)
Qs have an unusual color combination, my guess is that they use -120 to compensate.
But it is only my guess, I dont really have much experience in tuning hall angles etc.

 

[nardcox]

Yeah I've tried 27 pole pairs since 'someone online' said so.
Already tried -120 and 120. Will try 60, -60 and 0 after. The impact needs to be huge since now the motor isn't moving and sounds funny. If the above 3 settings don't work I'll post a video of it.

 

[j bjork]

Do you get rpm in the display screen if you turn it by hand?

 

[liteglow]

I think you are the first person I have seen recommend a kelly over the votol 150sp.
I have no personal experience with kelly, but from what I have seen on this forum they dont seem very reliable..

OK, I thank for pointing that out (before I buy a Kelly).
But I did not say I personally reccomend a Kelly, but many (that know votol and Kelly), they have stopped using votol, and are now using Kelly.

And "they" say to me that I should use a Kelly.
Because Kelly is better to program, using PC/Bluetooth/Tablet.
Kelly also have more easy software.
Kelly don't have flux weakning settings, but it have more torgue in start.

Votol have higher top speed, but Kelly is more reliable.

This is what other say, I consider to buy both so I can Compare myself.

There is also video on YouTube where the Votol simply fail on climbs, but the Kelly just work.

But Yes, many many people also say the Votol is powerful and solid as a brick.
So maybe there is some bad units or even fake one?

I see many here write that there is Votol 150/150sp/150S etc.

This is the answer I got from QS support when I asked if I could get the S version: "They are all the same"

 

[j bjork]

Because Kelly is better to program, using PC/Bluetooth/Tablet.
Kelly also have more easy software.

That is probably right, the votol program is not very good.

 

[j bjork]

but it have more torgue in start.

This is totally opposite to my experience of votol, and what I have read about kelly.

From what I have seen kelly has speed, or speed/torque throttle. And to keep it controllable they have a "throttle tamer" delay that makes it really sluggish from a stop. Maybe there are kelly controllers that have torque throttle and are not like that, I dont know.
It would be interesting to hear about them in that case.

However, the votol in sport mode is a real killer in throttle response. That and the low to mid range power (on ipm motor) is the reason I use it instead of my nucular 24fet.

 

[larsb]

Because Kelly is better to program, using PC/Bluetooth/Tablet. Yes
Kelly also have more easy software. Yes
Kelly don't have flux weakening settings, but it have more torgue in start. There are 50 kelly models, some which are more powerful than a votol em150. Some also match their motors better, such a statement is just irrelevant

Votol have higher top speed, but Kelly is more reliable. No

There is also video on YouTube where the Votol simply fail on climbs, but the Kelly just work.
would really be interesting to see a linked vid on this..?

 

[j bjork]

There is also video on YouTube where the Votol simply fail on climbs, but the Kelly just work.

Yes, some people have had that problem. It is discussed pretty much in this thread, have you read it?
Both the problem and a solution.
I havent really had that problem myself, but I have noticed power loss after some riding.
It havent been bad enogh so far, that I have felt I had to disable the temp protection.
I have made some pretty big climbs, but at speed.

Have you read any kelly threads?

 

[larsb]

If it was silentenduro i think he had different motors in those runs, at least from what i can recall.

 

[nardcox]

Why I choose Votol over Kelly & Sabvoton:
1. QS suggested it over the Kelly & Sabvoton
2. Most active topic on ES
3. QS could also provide and extra display for it

Without QS motor's I probably would have gone for the Sabvoton.

Downsides on Votol
1. No Bluetooth

Downside Kelly:
1. I've read the Kelly doesn't have torque control but something else. (My current esc has speed control which feels very unnatural (although you get used to it).
2. Kelly Quality Issues
3. Restart controller after settings (thats a minor minus because I plan to set it up and leave it alone unless I can't control myself )
4. Its supposed to have some throttle lag (or perhaps it's just a delay setting)
Kelly KLS-S vs. Sabvoton (überabeitet)

Anyway, so many people, so many situations, so many controllers and so many preferences. It's difficult to make a good comparison. it's not like a phone where you could run some benchmarks and compare raw performance.

Anyway, back to my bike. I've set 27 pole pair, -120 hall angle and it runs. I've switched the motor wires on the controller and it ran. It runs OK, I'll post a movie. I couldn't resist but take it outside and there it's struggling a bit. From the start there is a lot of stutter and I can't just hammer the throttle since it's start cogging. Settings are the same as before but with the other pole pair and hall angle.

Oyeah, it's fast .. Even with half throttle or something it felt like a rocket!! I had my Dragracer app on but forgot to save the results. Might also have been because it was dark out, I had no lights, no helmet and was pumped I got the motor to turn in the first place. I saw 51xxWatt on the display at one point. At the end I was getting more on the power and the bike just died om me, first had the feeling like the throttle was still on even when I let go and had to push the brakes (which are not connected) to stop it and after that it didn't want to move. It stopped like 10meter from my house and when I was back inside I saw the fuse jumped...

EDIT: The movie: https://photos.app.goo.gl/PGcYC8fEiX7QAh6s7

Do you get rpm in the display screen if you turn it by hand?

Yes I do, also see movie.

 

[j bjork]

If it was silentenduro i think he had different motors in those runs, at least from what i can recall.

Bartosh had problems too, with qs 138 70h

 

[larsb]

Yes, off course but he didn’t compare to a kelly. I don’t seem to have the temp limiting in my old votol either so this was introduced at a later stage.

 

[larsb]

27 pole pairs

27 pole pairs.. is this correct? Which motor?

Actually, if you don’t know this it’s very easy to check.
Take a compass, aim it at the outside case of motor where your magnets are. Turn once and count number of norths (or souths). This is your pole pair number.

 

[nardcox]

27 pole pairs

27 pole pairs.. is this correct? Which motor?

It's the stock motor in the Super Soco TS. It's a 1200W Bosch motor.
4th post I believe, altough he mentions the TC motor which is 1500W: https://supersocoforum.com/forum/main/kelly-controller-on-the-soco-ts/paged/3/#post-1687
My QS only has 16 so 27 sounds like a lot but what do I know

 

[j bjork]

Why I choose Votol over Kelly & Sabvoton:
1. QS suggested it over the Kelly & Sabvoton
2. Most active topic on ES
3. QS could also provide and extra display for it

Without QS motor's I probably would have gone for the Sabvoton.

Downsides on Votol
1. No Bluetooth

Downside Kelly:
1. I've read the Kelly doesn't have torque control but something else. (My current esc has speed control which feels very unnatural (although you get used to it).
2. Kelly Quality Issues
3. Restart controller after settings (thats a minor minus because I plan to set it up and leave it alone unless I can't control myself )
4. Its supposed to have some throttle lag (or perhaps it's just a delay setting)
Kelly KLS-S vs. Sabvoton (überabeitet)

Anyway, so many people, so many situations, so many controllers and so many preferences. It's difficult to make a good comparison. it's not like a phone where you could run some benchmarks and compare raw performance.

Anyway, back to my bike. I've set 27 pole pair, -120 hall angle and it runs. I've switched the motor wires on the controller and it ran. It runs OK, I'll post a movie. I couldn't resist but take it outside and there it's struggling a bit. From the start there is a lot of stutter and I can't just hammer the throttle since it's start cogging. Settings are the same as before but with the other pole pair and hall angle.

Oyeah, it's fast .. Even with half throttle or something it felt like a rocket!! I had my Dragracer app on but forgot to save the results. Might also have been because it was dark out, I had no lights, no helmet and was pumped I got the motor to turn in the first place. I saw 51xxWatt on the display at one point. At the end I was getting more on the power and the bike just died om me, first had the feeling like the throttle was still on even when I let go and had to push the brakes (which are not connected) to stop it and after that it didn't want to move. It stopped like 10meter from my house and when I was back inside I saw the fuse jumped...

You probably have some tuning to do. I think you shoud take it easy and try to find the right settings before you push it.
Search the forum about pole pairs and open the motor to find out.
I think you are right about votol/kelly/sabvoton. It seems sabvoton was a good controller a few years ago, but now is just a pale copy of what it once was. If you want something better later, take a look at nucular. It cant be easier than that to get a hub performing, but so far it cant match the votol on an ipm motor.

The votol sure is fast, I fear it is too fast.
With the nuc and 7:1 my ktm did 100km/h. It limits the speed with the back emf to not blow the mosfets at 95v.
With the votol and 8:1 gearing it still does over 100km/h, probably at least 110. With the nuc it would do about 90.

 

[nardcox]

You probably have some tuning to do. I think you shoud take it easy and try to find the right settings before you push it.
Search the forum about pole pairs and open the motor to find out.

Yeah definitely, from now on i'll be slowly building up the speed, I just couldn't resist after about 2 or 3 months not driving haha.
This forum doesn't have a lot of Super Soco related information unfortunately. I've asked the importer in NL about the specs but I'm skeptical if I will get an answer on my questions. Is opening the only way? I know a guy in greece who opened up his motor to replace the bearings, i'll ask if he knows anything.

Ahh Lars just read your edit, cool trick about the compass, now the challenge will be to find a compass. I'll start searching and keep you posted!

EDIT: Compass app on phone obv...

EDIT: more complicated than I thought. I wanted to test the QS motor first since I know it has 16 but didn't work so well on my phone. Perhaps I need an actual compass..

 

[larsb]

From the super soco forum

The TC hs 54 electric poles (60 permanent magnets), that is 27 pole pairs.

I wouldn’t trust someone that gets 60 magnets to be 27 pole pairs..

One pair is two magnets, 60magnets is 30 pole pairs if this wasn’t clear. Yeezus.

The other thing is if you haven’t even got the same motor then why use this number at all?

Just measure it

 

[nardcox]

I'll try to measure once I have the compass, also asked the greek already, hopefully he replies.
The TS & TC motor might actually be the same with a difference in software, there's some debat on that (guess nobody is opening up their motors).
Yeah the 60 > 54 > 27 also seemed off to me, good to know my gut feeling was right.
However you can also have multiple magnet to make a pole right?
So 60 magnets can be 30 pole pairs (pair = 2 x 1 magnet), or 15 pole pairs (pair = 2 x 2 magnets) or am I'm misinformed?
https://static.rcgroups.net/forums/attachments/3/0/1/8/a2479394-165-magnetpoles%20%26%20magnets.jpg

 

[larsb]

Yes, this is true. You’d never go from 60 to 54 though.

 

[nardcox]

Yeah, that's some straight up magic math :lol:

Found a video of someone opening a TS motor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2ONwtUexvw
I count 54 magnets so the options are:
27 x 2 = possible
24 x 3 = yeahh..no
13,5 x 4 = don't think so
10,8 x 5 = not very likely
9 x 6 = possible??

At 1:18 you can see the other side of the magnet, you might be able to check the poles from that? I've also asked the question in the comments but he doesn't really seem to respond much.

 

[larsb]

Please keep this votol thread on topic. You have your other thread to discuss all non votol issues.

Please beware that in your thread fechter is talking about hall spacing 120 degrees and that phase angle is not the same.

Phase angle directs when the coils are fired in relation to when the hall sensor states change. A poor setting of the phase angle (also called timing) is like firing a petrol engine cylinder in the middle of the upwards stroke of the piston and not close to the top dead centre.

 

[nardcox]

I've been testing this morning. 27 pole pairs and -60 hall angle. This works very nicely and it's very smooth, also with load.

I've changed some settings just to be on the safe side.
Setting 1
Busbar current: 50A
Phase current: 4000
Setting 2
Current-Limiting(A): 50

Before I sometimes had the issue if I was getting more up to speed like 40 to 50 kmph it suddenly 'cut-off' and started full regenmode almost locking up the rear wheel. Don't know if the BMS did this or the controller. Also limited the current in the BMS to 50A.

Some question, in which mode is the controller?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/UWKPPbwM6UKwpcNo9
I would say 'mid' based on Display PRNDS? Does that mean I'm limited to 60% like on settings page 2?
What are the next steps to 'tweak'? Is there anything I should check while driving / direct after driving?
I only drove up and down the street a few times so no longer distances or anything but everything was cool to the touch (as to be expected).

EDIT: Did some more runs. Everytime I'm getting around 45kmph the engine brake kick in hard. Also when i'm not accelerating hard but more gradually. I've upped the amps to 100 as well but that didn't help.

For the motors sake I think I should keep the it at like 40A, because the stock setup allows 50A*60V/72V=42A = 3kw.

EDIT: Also see speed limit at 37%, might turn that off to see if it impacts my cutoff at 45kmph.
EDIT: Speed limit didn't change anything.

 

[j bjork]

Disable HDC and try

 

[nardcox]

Disable HDC and try

No luck unfortunately. At 49kmph is start regen very hard.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/qAdA7Tu2npqSpcEdA

I'm starting to see the benefit of bluetooth more and more. Everytime I have to drive back to my start point, hook up the cable, start the program, connect, etc. Would be very cool if I could just do that via my phone.

 

[Colomka]

I am assembling a battery for a motorcycle and thinking about which battery to collect 72v 50-60ah or 60v 100ah. And the question is whether the controller will open from 60v to 100%?