Wayne’s Dengfu Carbon Fibre FS 27.5” with Bafang M600 (throttle also)

[Bigwheel]

I forgot to mention that on my eMtb I have ChiBon rims front and rear with WTB TCS tires and have not had any issues with them getting tires on and off. One is a 650b i35 rim and the other is an i35 700c. You really can't blame the tire in this instance I feel. I would wager that any tubeless ready tire, as they are all done to to ETRTO standards these days, will experience the same thing.

 

[Drop Dead Fred]

HI Vividguy. Regarding tips for what to ask for when dealing with dengfu I dont want to repeat myself too much in this thread I think its all been said in my earlier posts. Read it all over again slowly to pick out anything that may help. If you have anything specific I will be glad to help if I can. One thing I can highlight for you is once Dengfu has your bike in a box ready to ship it can arrrive (if you live in Canada) to your door in three days, pretty good.

Bigwheel, thanks so much for your awesome reply. This explains a lot to me and I will now wait patiently for the battery to arrive and then make my judgements after all the Bafang components are in place. For me I think the 18650 cellls will work for me just fine.Even if I get 3 years out of the pack at 300.00 bucks a pop that Dengfu charges me I will be totally happy. This being said maybe I should order my next pack now as it may take 3 years to get here.......

Hey Wayne,
Have you received the battery yet? I have been looking far and wide but can't seem to find anyone that has them or have an ack date yet. So wondering if Dengfu and been able to deliver?
Thanks,
Fred.

 

[waynebergman]

Hey Fred, news yesterday from Dengfu that they expect the Bafang battery pack to arrive end of next week to there factory. Then they say they will test & ship it to me. So it it may be a month or so before I recieve it. I have put the old dolphin pack back on my fat tire for now as I want a second bike to share with some company that is visiting us. As its easier to pedal the Dengfu around wtih out assist than it is the fat tire so I will just wait patiently for the full pakage to arrive.
And yes Fred it is a mystery how this M600 platform can appear to be for sale and displayed at bike shows as a working unit from months ago yet they are still chipping away at the battery. Seems crazy to me.

The only video I have seen with someone actually riding this platform with what looks like a frame fit battery is this one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgJ722IG9Ac and there is no mention of a throttle on that bike.Also the components and frame design on that video look kind of low end so I did not try and get any extra information from that video.

 

[Animalector]

That's not the bafang battery it's a battery like Frey use..

I heard that Bafang were making changes to the battery to comply with EN15194 and that November they will have the batteries available.

Andy

 

[waynebergman]

Hey thanks for this Andy. Just to clairify when you mentioned "That's not the bafang battery it's a battery like Frey use.. " what battery were you refering to ? ...the one in the video? Just not sure what you were refering to.

Also Andy can you comment on what the "comply with EN15194" means. I am still not sure what Bafang is up to. Sounds like we will be in for a system with less choices for 3rd party batteries. .........wayne

 

[Animalector]

yes I as referring to the battery in the video. it looks like this one:
http://www.reention.com/product/detail/47 which is nothing like the internal bafang battery BT F03-450

EN15194 is the European standard for Pedal Assist Bicycles (PAS). I don't know exactly what changes they are making, but it's probably got something to do with QC or BMS testing, or battery pack testing prior to release. (i.e has it been puncture tested, has it been overload tested etc)

My understanding is that there will be no 3rd party options available. Like any integrated battery the mounting system will be proprietary, you could always just build a pack of cells fill the void in the frame seal it with duct tape and away you go. I think you've already confirmed that the motor will run with just + and - connection..

I'm eagerly awaiting them as well

Andy

 

[waynebergman]

Thanks for the details Andy. Although yes, pos and neg to 48 volt pack works just fine for pedal assist but the main attraction for me with this drive is the throttle and it appears the battery will have a play in this. I won't know till my battery arrives but I think there may be special lead to either power or comunicate with the throttle so looks like its a Bafang Battery if you want to use a throttle. Too early to tell at this point as no one from Bafang or Dengfu is explaining anything that I can understand. I will post when I know.......wayne

 

[Animalector]

Hmm I can't see any reason why the battery will have any impact on the use of a throttle. It is true that the battery will have CANBUS and UART connections and +5V for a total of 7 pins, Maybe the Throttle is getting the +5v supply from the battery...

Andy

 

[E-geezer]

FWIW, one reason I like Orange Seal for tubeless over Stans is they provide a handy applicator tip for squirting it directly in through the valve. I had a monkeyed up homemade thing, that always leaked or fell off just when I needed it not to. I keep the small bottle and buy the bigger refills now.

https://www.amazon.com/Orange-Seal-Endurance-Tubeless-Applicator/dp/B078SBPK89/ref=pd_day0_hl_200_5?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B078SBPK89&pd_rd_r=a1861ee0-dd25-11e8-8fb4-4fbf70016bdb&pd_rd_w=LaWL5&pd_rd_wg=i4Xyo&pf_rd_i=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_p=ad07871c-e646-4161-82c7-5ed0d4c85b07&pf_rd_r=KM4GZ6CRH1ZWHQBZ5QHA&pf_rd_s=desktop-dp-sims&pf_rd_t=40701&refRID=KM4GZ6CRH1ZWHQBZ5QHA

 

[waynebergman]

View attachment 2View attachment 3
Bid day is finally arrived. Battery with new wiring harness to work with the throttle and battery arrived today. A bit of a job to re route all the internal cabling through the frame and requires to drop the motor as well. If anyone is thinking of ordering this bike and does not want a throttle I would suggest getting it anyways as if you ever change your mind its a bit of work to re route all the new wiring harness you need to run throttle. First picture shows the opening in the seat tube junction should someone want to run in tube cables for dropper post, an earlier reply in this thread was inquiring about this so, so this photo is for you.
Throttle works a bit different than the HD1000 in that the max amount of power from the throttle is based on the power level you choose from your handle bar display. HD1000 will let you over ride a low pedal assist level with full power from your throttle at anytime you crank on the throttle but no so with the M600. If you are on power level 1 your throttle is much tammer and smoother than on the power level 5 setting, the throttle gets a bit jumpy on level 5 and also I am not used to or like the thumb throttle so this will take some getting used to to smooth out the power with this bafang throttle. As these drives get more popular I am hoping people will find solutions for programing etc like the HD1000 and maybe some after market 1/2 twist throttle but for now I am happy with it just as it is. Time to put some miles on this bike now and see how it goes.
I like the battery how it locks in place and sits up nice in the frame. Easy to access on/off switch and charging port on the underside of the down tube. Overall fit and finish on all the components seems real good. I hope these M600 drives catch on and work well.

 

[Tom]

Congrats and great to see an update! Too bad the throttle needs some work (you would think bafang's engineers might be enthusiasts themselves and get it right) but it's a really nice looking bike. What's the total weight with battery?

 

[waynebergman]

HI Tom
I dont have access to a accurate scale now as I am in Arizona. I calculated before I think that the bike will weigh in just a little under 50lbs with the 13s4p pack. I would be surprised if its more than 50lbs.

Tom I would not say that the throttle is bad its just not as tunable as the HD1000 (or atleast at this point I dont know how to) and if I had a half twist I might be just fine. The thumb throttle is just not my preferance and I find it a little more difficult to control than what I am used to. I will still try and put a new connector on the Luna half twist I have to get that to work and it may be just fine after that. The three pin connector I put on the Luna half twist earlier did not work because the original cable harness that came with the bike made one think you needed a male connector for the throttle but no, its a female end on the throttle you need. I made the mistake as there was no info from bafang to let me know that the cable that came with my bike would never work with a throttle and was only inted to work with the Bafang Battery and no throttle. The unused connenector in the frame originally was most likely for the battery. Not sure if this makes any sense but those ordering this bike in the future wont be dealing with this as it should come shipped with throttle and battery in place.

 

[Bigwheel]

Looks good Wayne, glad it all has come together and you are in a good place for “test” rides.

Your first description of the TA sounded good as push for power is what I seek also as well as a throttle. Looking forward to some more reports as there still is little out there on the M600.

 

[waynebergman]

OK good news, I soldered on a female 3 pin connector to match the new M600 connectors onto the old Luna twist throttle I had and it works way better than the thumb throttle. Easy to smooth it out even using the power level 5 so this is good news. At this point I see no need to alter any programing issues or change anything. I will just keep my fingers crossed that when I need replacement parts they will be somehow easy to get. I will update from time to time with how the drive performs after I get some miles on it.

 

[FijiBrad]

Hi Wayne

Any news on performance, battery longevity?
I am currently torn between the Frey AM1000 and the M600. Particularly because the battery size is limited currently to 14AH on the M600. Also, whether, after having the M600, would I crave more 'power' lol.
Looking forward to your updates.

Cheers

 

[waynebergman]

HI Fijibrad
I find the 14ah gives plenty of range. It pointless to say howmuch range as things depend so much on speed, weight of rider, hills or flats or how you choose to use the throttle. Even using the throttle with pedal assist will hurt your range a bit so too many things to sift through to give any kind of meaningfull measurment on range for the pack - but I will say it has plenty of range for me. Long story short its a bike with a little under 700 wh and the bike weighs in at 50lbs with an XT 11 speed so keep the speed down and you can go a long way.

Had it out on the trails today again and the bike works really nice. Super smooth power, and a fun bike. The bike is not going to give the same get up and go like a 1500 watt HD1000 that is for sure, but you will mostl likely get more range per WH with this M600 torque sensing pedal assist because of the lower power levels, which also MAY mean less mechanical failures.

Getting used to the throttle as well, it seems like its got a bit more lag time from throttle to wheel than what I am used to with the HD1000. It is however very smooth using the Luna half twist it just means you hit the throttle a tiny bit earlier than normal for bursts of power when needed. And also - these are small bursts . Going from 1500 watts on my Fat tire bike to around 800 watts on this bike is a different ride for sure....half the power is half the power - anyway you look at it but I knew this before I bought it.

So far I would say the bike has more than exceeded my expectations. Dealing with Dengfu however had its moments as described earlier in the thread.

Fijibrad, you say you are also thinking of the Frey AM 1000, I can not comment on that bike really as it has a differnt drive. The motor and frame look a little clunky to me but just my opinion. If you can afford the Dengfu and live with the lower power I WOULD recommend it at this point..... just not sure how the process will be to get it to your door with out the frustrations I had. My best guess is now that Bafang has supplied Dengfu with the batterys they will ship it all ready to go turn key, so this in itself will remove almost all of the problems I had with Dengfu. I look forward to hearing from others who will buy this bike from Dengfu, hopefully soon.

 

[FijiBrad]

HI Fijibrad
I find the 14ah gives plenty of range. It pointless to say howmuch range as things depend so much on speed, weight of rider, hills or flats or how you choose to use the throttle. Even using the throttle with pedal assist will hurt your range a bit so too many things to sift through to give any kind of meaningfull measurment on range for the pack - but I will say it has plenty of range for me. Long story short its a bike with a little under 700 wh and the bike weighs in at 50lbs with an XT 11 speed so keep the speed down and you can go a long way.

Had it out on the trails today again and the bike works really nice. Super smooth power, and a fun bike. The bike is not going to give the same get up and go like a 1500 watt HD1000 that is for sure, but you will mostl likely get more range per WH with this M600 torque sensing pedal assist because of the lower power levels, which also MAY mean less mechanical failures.

Getting used to the throttle as well, it seems like its got a bit more lag time from throttle to wheel than what I am used to with the HD1000. It is however very smooth using the Luna half twist it just means you hit the throttle a tiny bit earlier than normal for bursts of power when needed. And also - these are small bursts . Going from 1500 watts on my Fat tire bike to around 800 watts on this bike is a different ride for sure....half the power is half the power - anyway you look at it but I knew this before I bought it.

So far I would say the bike has more than exceeded my expectations. Dealing with Dengfu however had its moments as described earlier in the thread.

Fijibrad, you say you are also thinking of the Frey AM 1000, I can not comment on that bike really as it has a differnt drive. The motor and frame look a little clunky to me but just my opinion. If you can afford the the bike I have here I would recommend it just not sure how the process will be to get it to your door with out the frustrations I had. My best guess is now that Bafang has supplied Dengfu with the batterys they will ship it all ready to go turn key, so this in itself will remove almost all of the problems I had with Dengfu. I look forward to hearing from others who will buy this bike from Dengfu, hopefully soon.

Hi Wayne

Thanks so much for your detailed reply. I am looking at the M600 and AM1000, both from Frey. Ivy is great with communications. I am leaning towards the M600. I’m a tall skinny guy, the few kg’s less in the bike are appealing, specs are great and it’s a bit cheaper. I’m just wondering if, once I ride the M600, am I going to want more power?!
Whichever bike I get it will have to come by sea freight which is a bummer, definitely cheaper though.
I was stoked to come across these threads as I was going to do a conversion. These production bikes look to me like the better option.
Cheers


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vividguy]

Just wanted to say thanks to Wayne for all his posts on the subject ..
2 frame of the oven .. I will update soon on my progress build

 

[waynebergman]

HI Vividguy, glad to hear you will have M600 also on the road pretty soon. Good to see others in the club. We may need each other

-Just want to give an update on bike status. All was well after a 10 mile ride the other day then to my surprise I could not get the system to power back up after the ride. No life on the handle bar display. Did some trouble shooting and sent an inquiry out to Dengfu and they seem to think its the cable going from motor to display but I think there is more to it than this as several weird things all started to surface at once. I will paste from me testing today the details on what seems to be going on...
Dengfu....
1. shown in the photo called "vReadat Term" you can see I have a good voltage reading from battery pos terminal but when I try to get a reading from the xt60 connector I get a reading of zero after the xt60 harness is connected to the battery pack. Not sure why this is. I think the xt-60 harness is defective. I have also tried to get a voltage reading from the terminals on the xt-60 connector after pressing the power on button at the handle bar display and of course the battery button is also on but yet no voltage reading at the xt-60 conector terminals. I think this means something is not right with either the battery or the xt-60 harness.
2.I am pretty sure the handle bar display is fine as I have got it to display readings when I plug a third party battery directly into the motor with the third party packs own xt60 connector. The display powers up just fine using the first cable that was sent to me (but that cable was not meant to support a throttle) in conjuntion with the third party battery also 48 volt. The photo called "lunaPackAndDisplay" shows the display funtioning normally with the old cable and no throttle and my LUna Battery.
3.The photo called "batAndRecptical" shows the xt60 harness next to the battery that I feel one or both is defective but there may be more issues as well. Seems like a few things happend yesterday all at once that has not been an issue before. One added issue is my battery is not taking a charge like it used to so where a red light dislplayed on the charger will normally start a top up charge until the greeen light goes on but now when I put he charger on the battery the light goes red and it will not top it up. The charger fan does not cut in or top up to full voltage, not sure if the battery needs to be run down below 53 volts before the charger cuts in but I dont think so. I feel if the red light comes on on the charger it should top up the cells and continue to charge so battery may be faulty not sure.

Dungfu lease advise on how to trouble shoot the battery and charging issues so we will know everything that is faulty can be dealt with at the same shipment for replacement parts. Thanks for this and I look forward to hearing from your technical support if that is posible I think the trouble shooting on this may be more difficult than just a replacement cable.........Wayne Bergman
View attachment 3View attachment 2View attachment 1

 

[Animalector]

My guess is a bad solder joint on the back of the XT60 or down at the connection point on the receptacle. Probably easier to open it up and re-solder it, rather than waiting weeks for a replacement??

 

[waynebergman]

Thanks Animalector, yes I checked for connectivity and Positive brass connector on the xt60 is not showing connectivity. Negative connector is fine. I have some new xt60 pigtails on order so I will replace this faulty xt connector in the next few days.
A friend also suggested something I think is worth trying and that is to kind of "Jump start" the pack with a 10-15 second charge from my charger through the discharge port. So I have a female barrel connector pig tail also on order that I will attach to an xt60 pigtail and give a short charge wake up call through the discharge port. I figure I will replace the faulty xt 60 on the bafang harness assembly first and then give it a quick wake up and see what happens.
Funny, when friends in the past have asked me for advise as to what kind of an ebike to buy (because they know I have had ebikes for some time) I always get unhappy reactions when I suggest buying a quality bike, imagine the response I will get now suggesting they buy two quality bikes so they can have a spare for when things quit working.

 

[waynebergman]

Interesting... I cut the xt60 connector off so when the xt60 pigtails arrive tommorow I will be ready to solder on the new pig tail assembly. To my surprise the end of the red wire comming out of the xt60 shows good conectivity to the positive brass connector. So now I am thinking there is a short somewhere between the new end I cut off and the positive prong terminal that connects to the battery pack. Also on closer inspection I see there is a small cut into both the negitive and positive cables right close to where its rubber insulator would have been cut to strip the insulator off for its instalation at the factory. Not sure if these little nicks in the cables shown in the photo (sorry hard to focus my camera for detail close up) would have been the source of any of my problems.

I want to pull off all the white/clear stuff protecting all the connectors also shown in the photo. Having a hard time of it to peel it back, very stuborn stuff. It seems much harder than silicone but softer than epoxy, sticks like crazy to the cable and terminals. Does anyone know what this white/clear stuff may be? And tips for removing it other than chipping away with a knife? I figure if I get down to the end of the positive cable at its terminal I can remove it totally and replace with new wire going to the replacement xt60 connector.

 

[Animalector]

From your description, it seems to me like the issue was at the XT 60 connector (ie if you cut it off, then measure the wire end to the pins and it is ok, the issue must have been with the bit you cut off)

was there any way to inspect the rear of the XT60 or was it gooped up?

It's possible they have just used hot-glue, that stuff is sticky and sets harder than silicone. You could carefully cut it off,

From what I have been told these batteries are from a different company not Bafang? is that true??

Thanks
Andy

 

[waynebergman]

HI Andy
Maybe my previous post was a bit confusing but no, the xt connector I cut off has good conectivity from its red wire end to its brass connector. The issue is now going FROM the male terminal that slides into the battery female AND the end of the red wire I have just cut.
Yes I am sure you are right hot glue, I thought of that but this stuff just sticks so darm hard to the plastic I figured maybe something else. I will chip away at it with a knife and get it apart.
Regarding the original source for the battery, I dont know. Dengfu implies it comes from Bafang but who knows what that means or who actually put it together.
I have asked sales at Dengfu to send me a new 5 pin terminal (if thats what you call it? ) complete with xt60 to replace this defective one shown in the previous post. They have not gotten back to me. I hope the "wake up" test from the discharch port will let the pack recieve a charge again or I will really be at the mercy of Dengfu and Bafang.

 

[waynebergman]

Yikes! Pulled back the hot glue and the only thing holding the positive battery leed in place was the hot glue. I am not very impressed. Actually there is not enough solder on the bare wire to even hold all the bare stands of wire together, blobs of solder attached to the side of the prong (maybe for good luck) that the wire was glued to but nothing making a solid solder joint to the wire. un·be·liev·a·ble ! There was actually blobs of hot glue between some of the stands of bare wire.