VESC for Bafang M560

[stancecoke]

Will see if we can make this torque sensor works!

You can check my commits for the Flipsky hardware and my posts in this thread, all you need is in there already.

 

[TPEHAK]

Of course you can't edit directly in Benjamins or my repo. You have to fork it to your own github account first.
For my Flipsky project I've written down some lines (mainly to remember myself weeks/month/years later ) how to edit and compile the VESC code in the STM CubeIDE, as the "how to" from the github readme works of course, but I'm much more familiar with the Cube IDE.

VESC_BLDC/documentation/Setup Cube IDE for VESC.txt at master · stancecoke/VESC_BLDC

The VESC motor control firmware. Contribute to stancecoke/VESC_BLDC development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

I clicked the link and the first line says "git clone project to your local drive"



The Google says locate the repository URL (navigate to project's repository).

What is "project's repository" for the torque sensor?

 

[stancecoke]

What is "project's repository" for the torque sensor?

Sorry, there are thousands of tutorials out there, how to use github. I'll give some last hints, but I will not explain any little click

As written, first fork benjamins projekt to you own account:

Then you will have a copy of the project as a repository in your own account.
click on the green button to download the project as a zip compressed archive, or use an app like Github Desktop on your PC to clone the repo to your local drive.
CubeIDE has an implemented Git Plugin also.


After importing the project to CubeIDE like described, you will be able to edit, compile and flash the firmware directly from CubeIDE by a STLink. You have to compile with the M600 hardware configuration, see step 6 of my notes.
Don't forget to commit your changes to your fork at github, so the community can benefit from your work!

 

[TPEHAK]

Guys, it looks like we got an interesting discussion coming!

I was contacted by a forum administrator claiming he was contacted by VESC guys (he did not say who exactly that was) and said the VESC guys do not like I use words "VESC Labs" to describe the "product" (while there is no product, you can not even purchase it). They also do not like I posted images on the forum with VESC Labs logo.

The Administrator did not provide any details about what they ask except that the VESC Labs team do not like the pictures with the logo and the word "VESC Labs". Administrator suggested to delete the pictures with logo or replace them without logo and delete the words "VESC Labs" I used.

Here is the confrontation. I like to use the word "VESC Labs" because of it indicated colLABoration withing VESC community and VESC world, the exact idea Benjamin Vedder pursuits. Same idea with the logo - it clearly indicates, it is VESC Labs entity, it works with VESC Labs firmware so people can clearly understand what this thing should work with and contribute to the VESC Labs community.

I also have no desire to spend my time deleting the pictures and text.

On the VESC Labs guys side they just "do not like" and as I understand they do not demand anything (and most likely they have no legal base to demand to delete words and images the Administrator suggested).

Let's see what you think guys.

I believe it is not Benjamin Vedder who initiated it and contacted the forum administration but someone else. Who that could be?!

Do you think it is Nintendo corporation pettiness level or not yet?

 

[neptronix]

I'm that guy btw.

If they took you to court over trademark infringement for using their logo and the registered trademark icon, you would absolutely lose, because this is a blatant case of misusing a trademark.
If i, the administrator of this site, would 'ok' you posting this content, i could be held liable also.

Why open yourself up to an easy legal win against you, if the VESC team decided to enforce?
I can tell you that'd be a lot less convenient than reworking some images and text.
A lawsuit can suck up months to years of time, and it's also very expensive.

Outside of the legal problem, it's in bad spirit to continue doing this. VESC develops a controller a lot of us ebikers use, and gives the design away for free. Some open source projects close up shop because the receivers of their gifts are too big of a pain in the ass. It runs against our community's interests if you are being part of the pain in the ass problem for VESC by misattributing their works.

 

[TPEHAK]

Please post links on such court cases and court decisions when someone was taken to the court for posting trademark logo images on a forum and using the words the trademark owned did not like the defendant used.

It is funny no one talked about "bad spirit" or "misattributing their works" until someone contacted. How about it is in bad spirit to keep demanding such nonsense?

Those pictures are absolutely necessary to attract people with VESC knowledge to figure out the VESC Labs firmware for this controller. We still do not know how to make the firmware for the torque sensor.

And please stop claiming VESC "helps" community for free - they make money doing so and it is their strategy to make money gaining popularity such way.

 

[neptronix]

Large companies have lost lawsuits over this in much less blatant and direct cases like yours. Here's some examples:
Blog | 9 Nasty Trademark Infringement Examples — and How to Avoid Them - Read More

Here's an extreme example. There's a famous open source project for running javascript as a server backend. They are not allowed to legally use the word 'javascript' in association with their product because Oracle holds the name.
Help Us Raise $200k to Free JavaScript from Oracle | Deno

That open source project hasn't been sued because they backed off on the infringement. But they have spent probably a million dollars over the last 7 years failing to get Oracle to let them use the trademarked name.

 

[TPEHAK]

I do not see any case around pictures and words on the forum illustrating non existing product you can not even purchase.

 

[A-DamW]

TL;DR, I'm not attacking you personally TPEHAK, I don't think you are a bad person, I'm just trying to point out that having the attitude that you can use copyrighted works with impunity from the creator of the VESC project, and then expect anyone worth their salt to help you write firmware, well, let's just say the chances of someone helping you are approaching zero.

I do not see any case around pictures and words on the forum illustrating non existing product you can not even purchase.

The issue is you are using a copyrighted logo and name without permission from the copyright holder on a product not made by said copyright holder.

I mean you copied the logo verbatim, including the © symbol.

Those pictures are absolutely necessary to attract people with VESC knowledge to figure out the VESC Labs firmware for this controller. We still do not know how to make the firmware for the torque sensor.

No, they are not necessary at ALL to attract the people with the knowledge and willingness to help.

What you will attract is the attention of people in the VESC community to the fact that you are acting in a way that will turn everyone away from your project for firmware help.

And please stop claiming VESC "helps" community for free - they make money doing so and it is their strategy to make money gaining popularity such way.

Sure, the real https://www.vesclabs.com sells controllers for a profit, kinda hard to stay in business without profit.

If you are going to use that as an argument to sidestep the fact that Benjamin Vedder and 100's of other highly skilled people have been freely contributing their time to the VESC codebase for the last 10 years, then why are you on multiple forum's across the web asking for free help?

Closing thoughts TPEHAK,
You are doing the literal opposite of what you need to do to get help with firmware, or even keep your thread from being moderated,
you are standing on a precipice of decision,
on the one hand, you could gracefully stop using copyrighted material, and continue the project,
or, you could dig your heels in.

If the ES admins get a nice letter, or another phone call, I wonder if they will choose to defend copyright infringement, or an online forum that has been around nearly 2 decades, just let that sink in for a minute...

I for one, would very much like to see your project continue.

Heck, if you are going to infringe, why not give everyone a good laugh, and put the Flipsky logo, or Makerbase logo on it.

I hope these words are taken in the spirit they are meant in.

Adam

 

[TPEHAK]

There is no copyright infringement here.

Let's bring Benjamin Vedder to the conversation here or whoever Benjamin Vedder assigned to act on his behalf and see what he or she exactly is going to tell us about these pictures and words I posted.

The issue is you are using a copyrighted logo and name without permission from the copyright holder on a product not made by said copyright holder.

There is no product. If I will sell you a product with this logo without such permission then we are talking about. But even in this case we do not talk about the pictures and words on the forum. That's going to be completely different conversation. But at the moment there is no such subject.

Currently we are talking about the pictures and words on the forum I posted the forum Administrator suggested to delete. At the moment we do not even know what exactly Benjamin Vedder demands from me. He has not even contacted me. All other things are just speculation.

 

[stancecoke]

We still do not know how to make the firmware for the torque sensor.

Who is "we"?
It is trivial to make the torquesensor work and I've given many detailed hints how to do it already.
I can't understand why there is this hype and argue about the VESC. There are enough alternative open source projects like the MESC of David or the Unimoc of Alex.

But at the moment there is no such subject.

Your work looks much too professional to be a hobby project. So you are planning to make a commercial product obviously. Maybe someone will buy it. That's not bad in principle, but giving the impression that you are offering a product from a competing company is very bad form and highly illegal.
Create your own logo, share your code if it is based on open source and everyone will be happy

 

[TPEHAK]

I'm not sure how VESC logo gives an impression of offering a product from a competing company.

If I would advertise offering a product, that would sertanly be a case, but I do not offer any product with VESC logo on it.

Noone can buy it.

MESC is not going to work, mxlemming refuses to contribute. VESC is our only hope.

 

[stancecoke]

Not the "VESC" is the problem, but the "VESCLabs". But I think you know that exactly.

 

[TPEHAK]

Or VESC Labs, even better. That means we collaborated.

 

[neptronix]

You did publish on the first page what looks to be some plans for producing said controller with their exact logo. That exact logo gives the impression that this is a VESC produced product. This could confuse people who download the archive and don't understand the context behind it. This could be argued in a US court and you would absolutely lose.

How you have used the term 'vesc labs' may be a second infringement, but i don't know specifics.



[ trademark infringing image retained here for future reference ]


I hear you got banned on the VESC discord, and are not affiliated with VESC labs

I would guess that this controller comes somewhat from your Lunacycle controller reverse engineering? if so, you could theoretically get the VESC team in trouble by slapping their trademark on this pirate controller. I would understand why they are concerned. Especially if you are saying that you collaborated on this.

 

[TPEHAK]

This is all speculation. Let's see what exactly Benjamin Vedder demands first. I am sure he is not that guy. But everything is possible.

VESC Labs guys and Benjamin Vedder had no problem reverse engineering the Innotrace controller for 5 years. And they had no problem when I joined to them and helped them with this effort. Benjamin Vedder saw I slapped VESC logo here and there on the VESC for Bafang m620 motor controller and posted those pictures publicly and did not say a thing.

Benjamin Vedder did not ban me. Mxlemming banned me because of I punished him for his inappropriate behavior.

 

[stancecoke]

The four letters "VESC" with "M560" should be OK, as VESC is open source. Maybe Bafang will have issues with the "M560".
But using the logo and "VESC Labs" like in this picture is not OK.



[ trademark infringing image retained for future reference ]

 

[TPEHAK]

This is just a picture for fun.

 

[Nix Liou]

This is just a picture for fun.

But why misrepresent yourself? It just makes you look like you are creating some low effort counterfeit. It doesn't even matter if that's the intent, that's definitely the perception you are engendering. What goal does that help with?

 

[rezystor1990]

You're doing a great job, but why do you insist on this logo? The logo is irrelevant to the user who will want to build this project.

 

[TPEHAK]

There is no goal to represent myself. I am also not insisting, I am more like defending. That logo is already there. Plus it clearly indicates that this is VESC Labs controller, so people know that this controller is collaboration effort, just like Benjamin Vedder always wanted. Plus it attracts people with VESC knowledge so we have more chances to finish firmware for it.

 

[neptronix]

..actually there is a statement from him on their website: https://vesc-project.com/trademark_policies

Here is what you're violating:

Rules that Apply to Trademarks In General
There are some basic rules that apply to any use of any trade or service mark that you do not own, including any mark of Mr. Vedder, without the express permission of the owner.

• A trademark should never be used as a verb or noun. A trademark should be used only as an adjective followed by the generic name/noun.
• A trademark should not be used on/for products (e.g. circuit boards, hardware, software, services)
• A trademark should not be used in the plural or possessive form.
• A trademark should not be altered or amended in any way. A mark should not be combined with any other mark, hyphenated, abbreviated or displayed in parts. A trademark that is depicted as two or more words should not be compressed into one word. A logo should not be displayed with colour variations, or with other elements superimposed on top of the logo.
• A trademark should not be used as your domain name or as part of your domain name.
• A trademark should not be used as part of your product name.
• A trademark should not be incorporated into your company's logos or designs.
• A trademark notice should be used on the most prominent and/or first appearance of each mark of Mr. Vedder, and a trademark notice should not be changed. In particular, a ™ should not be changed to an ® in a trademark notice by anyone other than the owner. If you are unsure about whether a mark of Mr. Vedder is registered in your country, please contact us for additional guidance as to what trademark symbol you should use.

Rules & Policies Applicable to Marks Owned by Mr. Vedder
In addition to the generally applicable rules discussed above, there are a few specific rules that we ask everyone to follow when using trademarks owned by Mr. Vedder.

• Use the full form of any trademarks (e.g., “VESC® Tool”) in the first reference in all documents of mass communication, including marketing collateral and web pages. You may then use any abbreviated or short form references (e.g. “V-Tool”) within the same the document where the full form has already been used.
• Use Mr. Vedder's trademarks in a form that distinguishes them from the text around them, such as by capitalization, bold or italic fonts, or with quotation marks. Any use of registered trademarks listed above should include the ® symbol immediately after the first usage (e.g., “VESC® Tool is open source….”). Any use of unregistered trademarks listed above should include a TM immediately after the first usage (e.g., “Vedder TM community seeks to secure….”)
• Do not use Mr. Vedder's trademarks in a manner that would disparage Mr. Vedders projects (e.g., untruthful advertising, false/misleading promotional materials, etc.).
• Do not use a logo of Mr. Vedder on the cover of a book or magazine, for software or hardware or any other product without written permission from Mr. Vedder.
• Do not use Mr. Vedder's trademarks more prominently than your own company, product or service name.
• Do not use Mr. Vedder's trademarks more often than needed to communicate compatibility or interoperability of software or products.
• Do not use Mr. Vedder's trademarks as auction/website/product title.
• The product name/title can't contain Mr. Vedder's trademarks.
• Do not use a logo of Mr. Vedder on posters, brochures, signs, websites, or other marketing materials to promote your events, products or services without written permission from Mr. Vedder.
• Do not refer to a product or service as being certified under any of Mr. Vedder’s marks unless your company has successfully undergone the requisite compliance testing and has explicit authorization to use such terms from VESC.
• Do not attempt to claim or assert any ownership rights in any mark of Mr. Vedder and do not attempt to register any of Mr. Vedder's trademarks as a trademark, trade name, domain name, or “doing business as” name, alone or (unless specifically licensed) in combination with your own trademarks.

You prominently use their trademark on the board design and claim it to be a collaboration. They could sue you for this and easily win.

I'm apt to respect their request and it's too bad you are not willing to respect what they want.

In cases like this, i will always rule in favor of the organization who supports the ebike DIY community the most. I never want to continue hosting some content that a third party has requested should be removed or altered. That creates a legal liability for us, and in this case, that juice is not worth the squeeze of taking on that liability.

Please fix the content ( orignal archive of files, claims of VESC affiliation, and images containing a copy+paste of their trademarked logo in post ) in this post by the end of the week, or i will remove this thread and other future hot potatoes you produce from public view.

 

[TPEHAK]

There is no product, no service, no company, therefore there is no violation.

Of cause it is up to you if you want to terminate this thread.

 

[neptronix]

I don't want to terminate this thread, sounds like you're forcing me to do it. I don't appreciate that.

 

[TPEHAK]

That is OK, I can take the blame.