Mid drive chain efficiency and longevity tips

[Zambam]

@BlueSwordM Thanks for finding more sources. I already ordered one lb of the Jaquard from https://www.michaels.com/product/jacquard-microcrystalline-wax-block1lb-492977964241911817 $21.08 shipping included

Really looking forward to less flaking.

 

[Ianhill]

What the hell ! if it makes my bikes chain feel the same way as I do when I put it on my gooch, I’ll give it a try.

 

[Diggs]

Here's my first waxed chain after 480 miles before getting re-waxed. It has never been cleaned (except getting rid of factory grease) and this is the way it came off the bike. I do like the way it stays clean as I've mentioned elsewhere, I lift my ebike in and out of my van and occasionally brush up against it. Look close and you can see a few scars no doubt where I shifted the BBSHD under load. I actually am surprised it did this well as I rode a couple hundred miles on crushed limestone trails. They have their own unique fine dust.

 

[pomah]

1200 km (745 miles) and need a new chain? That's crazy low! What kind of bike is your BBS02 on?

Not familiar with Squirt. Just looked it up. It's wax in a water base. Have you tried hot wax which may lengthen chain life?
View attachment 375899

Not familiar with Linkglide either. Just watched this video. It says to get all the benefits, Linkglide must be used as a system, i.e. chain/cassette/chainring/derailleurs must all be Linkglide. Is that what you have?

Nope no interest in changing to a oil/wax that requires more time, squirt is very time efficent to apply.

I use the linkglide chain, cassette, derailer and shifter, but it does not really matter for longevity. The only difference in the system is the cassette teath desigh and cable pull. The chain is a standard shimano 11 speed chain.

I'm not really sure what you say 1200km is a short chain life, that is what you on most non ebikes, and I'm running 500W of power through mine.

The bike is a surly bridge club

 

[pomah]

I didn't think oil lube is compatible with wax. Just came across this confirmation:
"The most important thing to remember is that wax and lubes do not mix. Applying a wet lube on top of a waxed chain will give you the worst of both worlds: A sticky mess that attracts dirt and causes high friction and chain wear. Just avoid it."
Source: I Bought A Pre-Waxed Chain. What Now?.

I clean my chain before applying any lubricant, It does not matter if I apply squirt again to a layer of squirt or if I apply oil.

 

[pomah]

I see some pictures of "clean" chains, that is nice and all, but has nothing to do with when you should change it, you do not change a chain because it is rusty or dirty, you change it when it has "stretched" beyond a certain point.

 

[hillslayer@]

Chains don't stretch the rollers wear down.

 

[Zambam]

I clean my chain before applying any lubricant, It does not matter if I apply squirt again to a layer of squirt or if I apply oil.

You sure about that? Oil and wax do not mix at room temperature afaik.

 

[Zambam]

I'm not really sure what you say 1200km is a short chain life, that is what you on most non ebikes, and I'm running 500W of power through mine.

I said that not based on personal experience (I have not worn out a new chain yet on wax), but from videos on youtube.
Here's one example

 

[pomah]

Chains don't stretch the rollers wear down.

I think this explains it better, https://www.bikeradar.com/advice/workshop/how-to-know-when-its-time-to-replace-your-bicycle-chain

 

[pomah]

You sure about that? Oil and wax do not mix at room temperature afaik.

I try to explain how I do again. Before I apply squirt, or other lubricant I degreese my chain/clean it. Therefore I wrote what I did, I can go from squirt in the summer to an oil based lubricant in the winter, all depending on how the weather is. To give you a better understanding, I live in Sweden, some winters we have very little snow and therefore not much of an issue. Some winters we have snow/rain mix where the municipality allso sprays salt mixtures on the road. At the later conditions, especially using squirt, the chain rusts and the squirt is required to be applied much more often, especially if i decide to clean the salt of after each commute, there I switch to an oil based lubricant that 1, stays on the chain longer, 2, protects it from corrosion better than squirt and 3, is easier and faster to apply. There is also less, dust/dirt in the wet environement that makes it less interesting for me to use squirt

 

[pomah]

I said that not based on personal experience (I have not worn out a new chain yet on wax), but from videos on youtube.
Here's one example

I hear him say that, but I have never seen any cassette that survives anywhere close to 45 000 km... Or a chain that lives for 15 000 km, and I'm not even talking about an ebike that most of us here use.

I hade amazing chain life, 2000-3000km, when I had a rear motor on my previous ebike build, that was also throttle only and about 900W, but that should not be considered a bike in my eyes.

I'm sure that hot wax lubricants can probably extend the chain life, or even increasing the re application of the lubricant will do that as well. But for me, after measuring chain wear for a few years, my experience is that applying squirt once a month, will give me the best chain life in the environment that I use the bike.

 

[Zambam]

I hear him say that, but I have never seen any cassette that survives anywhere close to 45 000 km... Or a chain that lives for 15 000 km, and I'm not even talking about an ebike that most of us here use.

I hade amazing chain life, 2000-3000km, when I had a rear motor on my previous ebike build, that was also throttle only and about 900W, but that should not be considered a bike in my eyes.

I'm sure that hot wax lubricants can probably extend the chain life, or even increasing the re application of the lubricant will do that as well. But for me, after measuring chain wear for a few years, my experience is that applying squirt once a month, will give me the best chain life in the environment that I use the bike.

I believe you get 1200 km on a chain, given the harsh conditions you ride in! It would be interesting for you to try hot immersion wax and see if you get better results (It's not much more work- you won't know till you try).

I looked at your build thread- nice work! How are those N.E.S.E modules doing?

 

[pomah]

I believe you get 1200 km on a chain, given the harsh conditions you ride in! It would be interesting for you to try hot immersion wax and see if you get better results (It's not much more work- you won't know till you try).

I looked at your build thread- nice work! How are those N.E.S.E modules doing?

Well those modules were doing great, but then the battery burned up with parts of my basement... Cause of fire was a UPS system in the same cellar but that is it... I would recommend the N.E.S.E. modules to those who want to build, the main problem is finding a good BMS, but part from that it is great.

 

[WaverlyCycles]

Well those modules were doing great, but then the battery burned up with parts of my basement... Cause of fire was a UPS system in the same cellar but that is it... I would recommend the N.E.S.E. modules to those who want to build, the main problem is finding a good BMS, but part from that it is great.

A UPS fire? As somebody with multiple UPS systems in my house, may I ask for some details?

 

[pomah]

A UPS fire? As somebody with multiple UPS systems in my house, may I ask for some details?

I dont have many details sadly, but after the fire, since it is an insurance claim, the insurance company did an investigation and concluded that the small eaton UPS I had caused the fire. Apparently, according to the investigator, they sometimes can do that if they are older.

I'm not sure if I buy that, but that was the official investigation and conclusion. My own take away from this is:

Do not put all batteries in one charinging corner, even if is is nice and comfortable to charge them all in one place, when one goes they all go...

Now 6 months later they are still finishing the cleaning up of the house, still no rebuild, and hopefully after 1-2 weeks they will start to rebuild. At the end of this we have not lived in our own house for over 1 year because of the fire and damage the smoke did to the house.

For the future I will separate my "larger" ebike batteries and allways charge them outside, even winter time. And the smaller ones, tool batteries, will be stored inside, but not on charger.

 

[neptronix]

For enjoyers of saving a watt or two, here's something tangentially related:

Silca has some very nice TPU tubes for sale now.

 

[n00b]

Waxing chains is very nice, especially if you're running a mid-drive drive motor and have had chains pop.
If you do that, you should probably have a chain tool with you, no matter what.

 

[n00b]

And here I am gonna try 10-speed chains and gears with a BBS03 again.
70/30 it ends up in broken chain fail.Then it's back to whatever 8-speed combo works.

 

[raylo32]

So, one of the ultimate wax skeptics (me) may give this a try. I just got done refreshing my gravel pedal bike with a full Shimano 2x Di2 kit that of course includes a brand new 12-speed chain. So, if I am ever going to try it now is the time. I like the method and formula that Oz Cycle posted after all his testing and the ingredients are readily available so that's what I am thinking... Gulf Wax and 1.6m PTFE.

Aside from the Silca and other proprietary systems are there any generic slow cookers that have digital temperature control? Those seem to be $$ and teeny tiny. I know I could just use a cheap manual one with a thermometer, but why, if there are better options? The one Oz Cycle uses seems to be ideal but that looks like an AU brand and not available here in the states. I have seen some that can control temp based on a probe but those seem to be too large and why a probe, when you can control digitally?? What pots are you guys using? Seems like a 4 qt might be a good size to be able to do multiple chains without needing too much wax.

 

[Diggs]

I don't mix my own. There are too many good waxes out there. I use Molten Speed Wax -

Amazon.com

I use a 2 qt pot. I've done 3 chains at a time (could do more) and since each one lasts me a year I haven't warmed the pot up again a second time. Just bought another couple chains and was getting ready for another batch for next year.

Amazon.com

 

[scianiac]

I just use some old crock pot I don't even know where it came from and it works great. It's a real small one I presume for sauces and probably from the 80s maybe? It seems though most slow cookers are about the right temp and I don't think the temp matters too much as long as it's not smoking hot. I would just go to goodwill and see what they've got. Also having got paraffin wax smoking hot to melt in LDPE and to make machinable wax, it's real hot.

I don't think the temperature really matters much as long as it's melted, if it's a little cool you just need to leave the chain in a little longer to make sure the chain gets fully up to temp, then stir, swish and mush the chain around enough to work the wax and the additives in.

Also if you are going to make your own very simple type I would go gulf wax and tungsten disulfide. WS2 is what all the top end waxes are using now, it's not hard find or expensive. I do use PTFE as one part of mine but it's probably the worst EP additive for this application. Like it is an EP additive and friction modifier but it's EP (extreme pressure) performance is much worse than MoS2 which is worse than WS2. Mine has it because I based it on an older recipe that was PTFE and MoS2 and while the PTFE does work synergistic with some of the other additives I have it's still not really the right additive for this application. After the base wax and WS2 the next thing I would add is the microcrystalline wax which is annoying to find but I think it improves the properties nicely.

I still find it funny all the anti-waxers who complain it's soo much work. Because honestly most of the "steps" from those roadie chain waxing guides and products don't do anything and the hastle of having to do it again is the whole thing I'm avoiding. So far I take a new chain, clean it out with whatever, strong dregreaser, gasoline, etc, maybe a final rinse in some acetone. Dunk the chain, leave it for awhile, swish, hang it on a hook above the pot, put chain on. If the chain is lucky maybe it gets waxed again if I have a new chain for another bike but the performance of a good wax to me is like use a half decent cheap chain, wax it when it's new and then run it. This whole you have to rewax every whatever miles is just more roadie obsessive stuff. In the zero friction tests the good waxes (which is what I aim my wax to be if I can) single applicaiton lasted longer, sometimes twice as long, as good wet lubes. So all these "well rewaxing takes too much time and it only takes me a minute to apply wet lube" like I wax the chain when it's new and doing nothing takes way less time than applying wet lube that will make a mess anyway. I don't care if I could make the chain last forever if I rewaxed it a million times, like chains are cheap. The last chain I removed I ran for quite some time at high power levels and the only reason I removed it was because I wanted a lighter chain that was better made (better lead in chamfers to guide better and run quieter)

 

[Diggs]

Waxing chains is very nice, especially if you're running a mid-drive drive motor and have had chains pop.
If you do that, you should probably have a chain tool with you, no matter what.

I had mine pop downtown Cleveland, OH on the Centennial Trail. I carry a Park Tool chain tool and a few master links. It was a hot summer, thank goodness it happened in the shade.

 

[99t4]

I still find it funny all the anti-waxers who complain it's soo much work.

For me it's not so much only that, but more survivability in the rain (rainy maritime environment). Riding thru one good rain and the wax is gone, requiring another R/R and hotpot cycle. Unless you've found a better mixture that is more tenacious in the wet?

 

[raylo32]

Even though I don't intentionally ride in the rain this is one of my worries, at least on my pedal bikes. I sweat, like a LOT, especially on steep climbs and my chains get a good soaking and after a couple of rides are very salty. Anyplace the wax may be displaced like at the high-pressure points may rust prematurely. With an oil-based drip lube the chains don't rust unless I put them away and leave them for several weeks or more without applying some fresh lube. Not sure how a waxed one will act. And I am thinking I may need to rinse and dry the chain before waxing again if only to keep the salt out of the wax puck. So, more work.

This won't be a real problem on my e-bike because I'm not working as hard and speeds on climbs are higher.

For me it's not so much only that, but more survivability in the rain (rainy maritime environment). Riding thru one good rain and the wax is gone, requiring another R/R and hotpot cycle. Unless you've found a better mixture that is more tenacious in the wet?