Adaptto Mini-E/Max-E Owner's Thread

[Xantho]

My first thought was to use the unlocked version even from the beginning because I was used to these Infineon controllers where modding is essentiell.
But some calculations changed my mind.
The max e with green side plates is capable of 184A battery and 368A phase current with actual v1-RC9G_4.3 locked firmware. Battery voltage for these phase currents is recommended 85V max.
When I fill up my Raptor frame with the Lipos I use I get 160A max as a realistic value for longlife fun.
So I have a battery power of 13.6kW.
The Adaptto possible phase currents are 368A. This is the peak of this sinusoidal current so the RMS value is 260A.
My Cro V3 9kV has 65mOhm windings. This would result in pure ohmic motor losses of 13,2kW. Then I would have 400W for the losses in max e, connectors, cables, motor windings additional losses because of heating up.
So the Adaptto max e beats my battery already in the locked version --> no need to unlock.

I'm a little lost. The Max-E limits phase amps at 368. I thought this was low because I used to run my Lyen controller, which I believe is a modified infinion, at unlimited phase amps for 10 seconds. I heard this could have put my phase amps in the 500+ range. I haven't used that controller in a long time and am running a lot more battery amps in my Max-e, but i do remember the Lyen had a lot more power off the start where phase amps matter.

Why are you saying the max-e beats out your battery when you can turn those phase amps up to say 450 or 500 and get much more acceleration? You also mentioned that the new firmware is limiting your phase amps at 306 for one of your controllers.

Yes I think the adaptto values are peak values.
You think you got 500Arms phase current?
Do a little math:
3 x 0.065Ohm x 500² = 48.75kW
Do you have a 85V battery with 573A? I guess not!
With 500A sinus peak it is still 286A bat. Only a few amongst us have such batteries.

I really miss the acceleration of my Infineon controller. But this is not a lack of power of the Adaptto.
I think the adaptto has a slow increase of pulse width when turning the throttle. Even the -- setting in the power profiles is not that fast as an Infineon would. If somebody has an oszilloscope do the following measurement during the fastest possible opening of the throttle : Channel 1: one phase cable and ground of the throttle (timebase around 20ms with possibility to zoom in). Channel 2: signal of throttle and ground of throttle. I bet the throttle signal will significantly rise faster than the pulse width of the phase.

 

[madin88]

Yes I think the adaptto values are peak values.
You think you got 500Arms phase current?
Do a little math:
3 x 0.065Ohm x 500² = 48.75kW
Do you have a 85V battery with 573A? I guess not!
With 500A sinus peak it is still 286A bat. Only a few amongst us have such batteries.

Please do some research first to avoid posting more BS!

yes, the battery voltage and phase to phase resistance of the motor limits the maximum phase current, but you don't need to multiply it 3 times.
further: battery amps are NOT phase amps as RMS phase voltage differs. for instance you can have 20A 100V on battery side and 100A 20V RMS on the motor side.

 

[Allex]

I have asked Allex about the maximum phase amp setting that can be set on the MiniE. My issue is that for a student project, I want the students to use a DC power supply 75V/40A to test the mechanical parts of a trike drive system with a RV100Pro motor. I do not want to have the students work with batteries at this point for safety reasons. I have to be sure that the MiniE can be set so it does not exceed the CC setting of the power supply (lets say 20A) from a stop condition (0 RPM). Allex asked me to email olegk@adaptto.ru with this request and it have been more than 10 days and I have not gotten any response. Makes me a bit suspicious that this setting may not be quite satisfactory to use. Anyone else have any experience with this issue? All the testing is done on a roller fixture so we can control the load on the drive wheel.

Hi, Adaptto said that this is possible, just make sure to disable the regen brake - this could damage PSU/Controller.

 

[Xantho]

Yes I think the adaptto values are peak values.
You think you got 500Arms phase current?
Do a little math:
3 x 0.065Ohm x 500² = 48.75kW
Do you have a 85V battery with 573A? I guess not!
With 500A sinus peak it is still 286A bat. Only a few amongst us have such batteries.

Please do some research first to avoid posting more BS!

yes, the battery voltage and phase to phase resistance of the motor limits the maximum phase current, but you don't need to multiply it 3 times.
further: battery amps are NOT phase amps as RMS phase voltage differs. for instance you can have 20A 100V on battery side and 100A 20V RMS on the motor side.

Thanks maddin88 for your comment. Interesting way you have to calculate between battery and motor power (20A 100V on battery side and 100A 20V RMS on the motor side). I try to explain a little better now.
Fact is we have a 3 phase motor (windings in star configuration). Each of the 3 phases has for my Cromotor 65mOhm and as the example was 354Arms phase (500A peak). So the ohmic losses are 3 x 0.065Ohm x (354A)² = 24437W. When speed is zero we have no mechancal power (2 x pi x f x M) (huge Torque M but no rpm (f). So battery has to be 24437W only for motor losses at 25°C. At 85V bat this is 24437W / 85V = 287A bat.
If you don`t believe me go to ebikes.ca simulator. Choose the TC4080 (similar in power to our croms), 85V battery with 0Ohm and 287A controller with 0Ohm. Then you get at zero speed 491A phase from simulator. This again is a peak sinus value. So 491A/root(2) = 347Arms.
Now we can calculate if the TC4080 has a similar winding resistance like our Cromotor. 24395W (from simulator) / (3 x (347A)²) = 67mOhm. For me it is interesting that the TC4080 (10KV) has the same winding resistance as my Cromotor (9KV). I have both motors and this is another argument why Croms are better. And all these shows that my calculations are correct. Please try that with yours! I have read so many good posts of you. Please ask me if anything has been left unclear (also PM).

 

[kenkad]

Allex,
Thanks for posting that part of his reply. There is a bit more, has to do with "potential twitchy throttle response"? I can understand the regen part, I do not quite understand what the throttle response has to do with my question (probably has to do with microcontroller's ability to recognize throttle response input in realtime). I just wish controller manufacturers would put simply slide switches inside the controller housing so things like 'regen' can be simply turned off permanently when the user so desires. I also wonder how motor manufacturers (like Revolt and others) test their motor before shipping. I simply cannot envision that battery systems have to be used for motor testing. I will withhold comments made to me about the Revolt motor testing process (it may have been a tongue-in-cheek comment by Alexey) and it did not use a battery system.

 

[madin88]

If you don`t believe me go to ebikes.ca simulator. Choose the TC4080 (similar in power to our croms), 85V battery with 0Ohm and 287A controller with 0Ohm. Then you get at zero speed 491A phase from simulator. This again is a peak sinus value. So 491A/root(2) = 347Arms.

NO, the values are NOT peak sinus and furthermore, Justin does the tests with a trapezoidal controller.

Now we can calculate if the TC4080 has a similar winding resistance like our Cromotor. 24395W (from simulator) / (3 x (347A)²) = 67mOhm. For me it is interesting that the TC4080 (10KV) has the same winding resistance as my Cromotor (9KV). I have both motors and this is another argument why Croms are better. And all these shows that my calculations are correct. Please try that with yours! I have read so many good posts of you. Please ask me if anything has been left unclear (also PM).

NO, the TC4080 has a phase to phase resistance of about 105mOhm and Cromotor V3 (don't confuse it with QSV3) has about 90mOhm (incl the wires).
Come on, any calculation with 3 times the phase current is BULLSHIT, so please stop spreading more and more incorrect informations here!

 

[Allex]

Surprised nobody's asked this yet. Do we have amp and ohm numbers for the three controllers (max-e, midi-e, and mini-e) so we can model each in the ebikes.ca motor simulator?

You can set 0,003ohm for he maxe at least.

 

[korpin]

pardon me if this has already been posted but HPC is building me revolution with MXUS motor and Adappto Midi...the guys at HPC are having trouble with regen settings...on a brake handle regen what should the settings be for:

1)active mode

2)forced active

3)smooth????

 

[Cowardlyduck]

LOL - Doesn't surprise me that the HPC guys would struggle to setup an Adaptto...from what I've seen those guy's are clueless.

Those settings are entirely preferential and have nothing to do with whether it will function or not.
In my case I have:
1)active mode - No

2)forced active - No

3)smooth - Yes

What needs to be configured is the regen 'throttle' mapping to adjust at which voltage it starts/stops. That will change depending on how close the magnet is to the hall sensor.

Cheers

 

[korpin]

LOL - Doesn't surprise me that the HPC guys would struggle to setup an Adaptto...from what I've seen those guy's are clueless.

Those settings are entirely preferential and have nothing to do with whether it will function or not.
In my case I have:
1)active mode - No

2)forced active - No

3)smooth - Yes

What needs to be configured is the regen 'throttle' mapping to adjust at which voltage it starts/stops. That will change depending on how close the magnet is to the hall sensor.

Cheers

why no on active mode and forced active for you?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

why no on active mode and forced active for you?

Cause it partially defeats the purpose of Regen IMO.
Regen is for recovering small amounts of energy to extend range. If you enable active/forced active it uses extra battery power to stop you.
It also adds significant heat to the motor/controller compared to normal Regen.

Cheers

 

[korpin]

why no on active mode and forced active for you?

Cause it partially defeats the purpose of Regen IMO.
Regen is for recovering small amounts of energy to extend range. If you enable active/forced active it uses extra battery power to stop you.
It also adds significant heat to the motor/controller compared to normal Regen.

Cheers

that was my first gut instinct too but thought I read something about reverse mode "allowing more energy to be captured"....i am looking back in Adappto manual to see if that is where I read it maybe it was somewhere else I read it or maybe it just said something like "allows motor braking to lower speed"

what about PWM limit??..what does PWM mean? Power blank Management?

 

[Cowardlyduck]

I don't think so Korpin.
I think regen cuts out at lower speeds because the controller FET's can't handle that much phase current. It's a protection mechanism I believe. Active mode tries to rotate the wheel backwards at low speeds so it's not charging the battery, rather discharging it.

PWM stands for Pulse Width Modulation. Just leave it at the max setting.

Cheers

 

[korpin]

thanks for your help....

 

[ccmdr]

Two Charging questions:

1) With regard to the Midi-E can it take the 70A coil being used at 70A? Before it was Mini-E = 30A Coil / Max-E 30A or 70A Coil

2) Coil/Buck charging, just how low can you get the pack voltage and still 'Buck' charge i.e. (random figures)

Discharged 50v resting battery pack with 48v unloaded PSU?
Discharged 50v resting battery pack with 49v unloaded PSU?
Discharged 50v resting battery pack with 49.5v unloaded PSU?

It's cutting it close I know but for example with 12hr shift work 40 min commute either side, it makes the difference of having to timer charge over your sleep period with 500W PSU 4 hour charge vs 1 hour charge 2000W in your getting ready for work, coffee/breakfast period .

 

[Jonboy]

Hey guys anybody got a fix for this.. My Max E has been working fine but just recently when I switch it on instead of the normal ECO-BMS-ECO on start up it displays PROTECT-BMS-PROTECT... Disconnect from the battery then reconnect, then it's perfect.. ECO-BMS-ECO. rides normal no probs

Very annoying, I really don't want to damage it at the mo as my lad gets his adaptto/raptor setup for xmas.. I'll be gutted if my bike is in dock & we can't go ride together!

Guys hope someone can help here.. My adaptto sorted its self out and stopped the protect, then built my lads bike up over xmas with the the new 14kw version we had from Allex, all good .. rode in the rain with cling film over the head units all good.. then both bikes get the Protect message after washing them when we get back. Knock them off & on all good?? weird!

This needs to be more stable.!

Next Niggle!

I Got a "charge" message the other day .. & no power! Out at the back of beyond it was a ROYAL PITA! Treck back off the hill...!

My confidence is breaking down in this system! .. As Really great it is.. when its working properly!!!!!!!!!

I will admit I ride hard on the bike, & wet!!!! (I do live in South Wales!) 11kw peaking & poring down sometimes but hay ho.. makes for great fun!

I've asked adaptto about the probs I've had & they replied with the following: (I realise this is a personal question to them & I would hope they don't mind me posting this openly.. Any probs guys take it off, just think it may help others.)

Adaptto replied to a my concerns about the "Protect" notification with this:


I understand your concerns however there could hardly be any external
for controller to enter the PROTECT mode.
I would only suggest checking the battery voltage (probably it exceeds
the limits). I mean the value on the main screen, it's possible that the
value on the screen does not coinside with the reality.

As far as I understood, it shows protect without you twisting the
throttle, right?

It's also crucial to check all the contacts, probably there are
microdistortions.


I really appreciate the reply but it's a bit broken english, there is no twisting of the throttle going on when booting up or anything & I've been through every single contact & applied dielectric grease & measured battery V & it's the same as the head unit reading...?


Be happy Keep riding!! :wink:

 

[Offroader]

Jonboy what exactly is protect mode, I never heard about this? I always get the !Halls! error when my controller stops working.

 

[ccmdr]

When you say 'knock them off' :wink: taffs... do you mean simply turning the unit off then back on?

Water is obviously the theme here and both my head units gets drenched (USB taped up). When it rains the next 20 miles/40 minutes are sodden. So unless you have two units with the exact same issue..., you need to look elsewhere.
Are your contollers external or internal, do they ever get wet?
Motor phase wires waterproofed?
Hall wired waterproofed?
Motor waterproofed?
Hub covers with gasket sealent?
Axle cable hole filled with sealent?
Cabling spot on?
On/Off Switch waterproofed?
Water egress in the throttle?

If you know it's going to get wet prevent a long painful intermitant fault finding debarkle by covering all bases before looking elsewhere. Be very careful in blaming your equipment :wink: , first things check anything you've built/soldered/waterproofed/connected then double check, anything still niggling, be honest, all done, are you sure? Then start looking at propriatry equipment :lol:.

I've had Protect! before, it was water in the throttle so it would startup with an indicated 100% throttle. You can check in 'calibration'. Gave the throttle a couple turns an it was fine.

 

[Allex]

Check your t150 connectors, the females could some times be very loose, expand the contact fins on them with a little screwdriver so you have a good contact. I bet it has something to do with moisture.

 

[ridethelightning]

I had "PROTECT" with a mini-e a while ago, brand new one too.
im pretty sure everything was wired correctly.
i could reset it in the protectionY/N setting, but if i tried to ride again itwould come back on.
after a few times, it would not even reset, and when ifinally got home,on opening the controller a trace had popped near the fets :|

im still not sure what the PROTECT message indicates exactly, but id really like to know the cause.

 

[Jonboy]

Guys, it would seem it's definitely moisture related.. Both bikes have been cleaned fully charged still getting protect on start up. Had a an hour out on them yesterday "DRY" riding & taking it easy got back and all is good in the world! both bikes boot up as they should..

Shame is I can't get the controller in the frame with ten multistars so It's a bit of a trade off..

Quick edit! Just tried them this morning & my bike has got all protective again!!!

Interestingly the later firmware on the new controller doest have the protect Y/N.. unless it's now in a different place?

 

[fullonoob]

Will the screen turn on if I connect only the battery?

 

[Scott]

Will the screen turn on if I connect only the battery?

Yes, If the battery is plugged into the controller and the display is plugged into the controller then the screen will turn on. If you have the on/off switch option then those two wires will need to be shorted.

 

[fullonoob]

i used a 4s lipo but sceeen wont turn on?

 

[Scott]

i used a 4s lipo but sceeen wont turn on?

The Operating voltage is 24v-98v, although most people recommend not going over 92 volts. A fully charged 6s pack should be able to turn it on. I would think that a user wouldn't want to use any less than 10s when using the controller.