Adaptto Mini-E/Max-E Owner's Thread

[varntzberg]

Hello good people of the sphere! or rather, Adaptto owners!
This is my first post on the forums, so forgive me if I'm posting this in the wrong sub-category.

I have recently purchased a raptor frame, V3-cro, a max-e, as well as about 2,5kWh of LiMn batteries.

What I'm intending to do with the lot I guess you can figure, however I have a few questions I thought I'd run by some of you who have actually owned and ridden ebikes before..

First and foremost, I'm looking for a throttle that will fit the controller. Problem is, I cannot find any hall-based ones of half decent quality.

Something like the domino would be preferrable, but as it is a pot throt. I fear it will be either incompatible with the controller, or of lesser quality than what I desire.

Long story short, I want the beezneez in throttles. Cost is not the biggest issue, so thoughts? reccomendations?


Also, am I in over my head as a first-time ebiker power-wise?
Would this setup @~12kW with a 19"moto rim be comparable in accelleration to say a known bike or car I might be more familiar with?

I'm simply trying to get grasp of what to expect from this.. Am I constructing a mediocre moped, or a frocking murderbike..? There seems to be differing opinions out there



Thank you for your attention, looking forward to sharing my build with you guys If there is any interest ofcourse..

 

[ridethelightning]

keeping your wheel size smaller will give inasne accelleration, say16- 17" rear moto wheel.
12 kw on a bike weiging in at ~50kg, would out perform most petrol mopeds out there from accelleration point of veiw,and top speed, should be capable of 120kph depending on config.

domino throttle is good qual,magura is ok too but id say no.2. go with a wuxing thumb throttle for varyable ebrake/regen.

 

[GCinDC]

hey varntzberg, i'm afraid you may be disappointed. you'll definitely be able to pass women on bicycles if you pedal, but serious cyclists may still overtake you.

lol. just kidding. you got the makings of a monster ebike. may not break drag speed records, but i can't say i've ever heard of a more powerful first ebike for someone!

unfortunately, i have no suggestions about the throttle. what does stealth use? get a cheapo half twist until you can find something better. i confess i'm not entirely clear if the pot throttles work w/ adapttos or not, but guess they do, i've just given up on them myself.

keep us posted on your build.

ps. i destroyed mopeds with my minie, so please, let's take them out of the competition. i'm guessing what you have will rival most motorcycles up to their third gear, but i'm not a biker so can't say. cars will be dust behind you.

 

[Allex]

Varntzberg: This is what you could expect from 12kW if your rider weight is around 90kg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmuKBPBY67w

I use this throttle, same one Stealth uses, and it has never let me down, and the quality is actually great, I never had any problems with it during 2 years of riding.
http://fasterbikes.eu/index.php?id_product=21&controller=product&id_lang=3

 

[Offroader]

varntzburg, here is my take. It all depends on how crazy you like to drive.

If you are like me, I push the bikes to the limit and I'll drive down a single track off road trail at 40MPH. I think I'm an adrenalin junkie and like the feeling of pushing the bikes to the limit. However, you risk great bodily harm if you mess up.

I personally limit my power to 18s and watts to around 4000-5000 because if I had more power I will put my self in a lot more risk.

The adaptto is probably going to be my death sentence being that my top speed has just increased from 38MPH with 18s to over 50MPH. And soon over 60MPH with 22s lipo.

With 12KW of power you really should not be running a 19" but a 17x3.00. The 17"x3.00 tire is so much better than the 19", especially if you are going to push it off-road. Since you have a raptor you can easily use the 17" with the adjustable suspension.

The other thing I recommend is that you really should be starting out with lower power as you learn the limits of an electric bike, when it loses traction, how quickly you need to brake, the hazards of the road etc. These are all things I learned the hard way when pushing 1000-2000 watts on my first ebike. I have lost traction and fell a few times, I was doored, and dealt with many other hazards and lots of close calls. I am happy that I learned all this at a much lower speed and lucky my injuries I sustained at these lower speeds were not very bad.

If I started out with a much more powerful bike I would have probably have been in a very bad accident.

Being that I learned most of these hazards and traction limits I am glad to say I haven't had any problems with my raptor or lost traction at over 5MPH, even though I am driving much faster now with much more power and in much worse offroad conditions. Sometimes I wonder if the reason is my bike is so much better, but I think it comes down tot he fact that I know all the dangers.

To sum it up it depends on how you drive, if you are older and take it easy then the power doesn't matter. If you are young and an adrenalin junkie you very well will get in to a bad accident with that power. If you strictly drive on the street like a motorcycle, then the high power doesn't matter much either. It matters more if you treat it like a bicycle and take it off the street.

The Max-E limits phase amps and smooth's out the throttle so the high power won't wheelie your bike easily, which makes safer and easier to drive.

I don't think the throttle quality matter that much especially with the Max-E being able to smooth it out with its calibration.

 

[madin88]

Ok thanks I shall have a play with it, it works fine at 0 , but at three it surges on and off

i also noticed this strange "on off on off" behaviour after flashing new firmware (it was another bike with cromotor not mine).
IMO its a bug in the firmware. I got it fixed after a reset and new autodetect. It also could help to swap the phase or hall sensor wires.

Thanks !, I shall try that , as its just annoying more than anything, as it still works.

crea2k, could you fix it?

 

[crea2k]

Hello good people of the sphere! or rather, Adaptto owners!
This is my first post on the forums, so forgive me if I'm posting this in the wrong sub-category.

I have recently purchased a raptor frame, V3-cro, a max-e, as well as about 2,5kWh of LiMn batteries.

What I'm intending to do with the lot I guess you can figure, however I have a few questions I thought I'd run by some of you who have actually owned and ridden ebikes before..

First and foremost, I'm looking for a throttle that will fit the controller. Problem is, I cannot find any hall-based ones of half decent quality.

Something like the domino would be preferrable, but as it is a pot throt. I fear it will be either incompatible with the controller, or of lesser quality than what I desire.

Long story short, I want the beezneez in throttles. Cost is not the biggest issue, so thoughts? reccomendations?


Also, am I in over my head as a first-time ebiker power-wise?
Would this setup @~12kW with a 19"moto rim be comparable in accelleration to say a known bike or car I might be more familiar with?

I'm simply trying to get grasp of what to expect from this.. Am I constructing a mediocre moped, or a frocking murderbike..? There seems to be differing opinions out there



Thank you for your attention, looking forward to sharing my build with you guys If there is any interest ofcourse..

I have the Domino and it works just fine with the controller, its also built like a tank too, so far iv done near on 800 miles with it and not had a problem with it. It also comes with proper motocross grips, so no cheap crap.

 

[crea2k]

crea2k, could you fix it?

Yes I just changed it to +1 instead of +3 , seems to work fine like that, iv also turned the motor inductance down to a similar value to what everyone else has and it seems to be slightly more economical now too when you are cruising.

 

[madin88]

what do you mean by you "turned down motor inductance"?
i guess you mean wireR therefore phase to phase resistance..

 

[crea2k]

I meant motor inductance was ok 580 before , iv put it on 420 now, so far so good.

 

[madin88]

I meant motor inductance was ok 580 before , iv put it on 420 now, so far so good.

you must talk about "ind timing"
this is hall sensor delay time, but does motor inductance has influence on this?

 

[crea2k]

Ah ok, I was thinking it was motor inductance, anyway it seems to reduce the power needed, so all good. The temp sensor blipping up and down seems to be ok so far too since I attached the controller to the battery box top, inside with some double sided heat transfer pads. I put phase current up to about 265 I think, the battery is on about 85 I think, when it was playing up it was on 100/300 I think. The thing is about these packs is they only have a max theoretical rating of 150amps burst anyway, so @ 100 they were making the battery box quite warm inside after a ride, so that probably wasn't helping the controller. Saying that though, iv never actually felt the batteries themselves being warm, it was always the controller that was hot, the batteries just felt room temp. The max I got on my ride yesterday was 7,500 kw, and it seems to work just fine like that. One strange thing iv found is that the max battery amps I can actually enable is 125amps, yet the controller max is 150amps, but im not sure if this is just a restriction of the locked firmware ?. I need someone with balls of steel to road test the speed for it, as the max iv been on it is about 47mph and it was still going like a steam train then, would easily do 50-60, maybe more, but the offroad tyres are really scary on a muddy / wet road at that speed. The only road I could possibly take it down at that speed is the local A road, which is fairly dry and smooth, it actually feels half safe on there, it doesn't help that I have about worn my back tyre out lol, as its nearly slick now down the middle.

 

[Allex]

IND timing - is the sum of the delay between Halls, Filters on controller board and the time to process this data.
PWR timing is responsible for angle shift depending on the phase current. The more Inductance in the motor windings, the more phase current lags behind the phase control signal. So this one takes care of the conpansation of this delay.

And the last is google translate:
OVS timing - Setting responsible for motor rotation, in the case when the battery voltage is not enough to achieve maximum speed. Works as follows:
almost reaching the maximum cycle of the PWM controller
lead angle increases, allowing more speed increases to (and reduce the efficiency of the motor) when velocity
limit the maximum engine speed, not its thrust.

 

[crea2k]

Allex would the wrong ind timing setting cause the controller to heat up ?. Im just not sure why my motor had such a high value, although I did change 2 out of the three halls, as the legs snapped off, so I changed it to more like the value that you and others have set for the cromotor, seems to work ok anyway .

 

[GCinDC]

since I attached the controller to the battery box top, inside with some double sided heat transfer pads. I put phase current up to about 265 I think...

crea2k, if your controller is inside the batt box, it's gonna cook, unless you have some forced cooling method. heat transfer pads won't do anything w/o cool air passing them imo.

 

[Allex]

I know that it can be hot if angles are super wrong, not sure about IND. The motor will be for sure!
Try to do a manual setup.

 

[crea2k]

since I attached the controller to the battery box top, inside with some double sided heat transfer pads. I put phase current up to about 265 I think...

crea2k, if your controller is inside the batt box, it's gonna cook, unless you have some forced cooling method. heat transfer pads won't do anything w/o cool air passing them imo.

Its using the huge great metal battery box as a heatsink, in the same way that pentium slot processors used heatsinks before they started putting fans on processors, it definitely saps away some heat as the box starts to get warm after riding for a while, The air and water from the road hits the box and cools it as you are going along.

 

[crea2k]

I know that it can be hot if angles are super wrong, not sure about IND. The motor will be for sure!
Try to do a manual setup.

The motor barely breaks a sweat, the hottest iv ever had it is prob 150-160 F , which was thrashing it hard as hell for about 20 mins on full power, usually it sits around 60-70 F.

 

[Allex]

So only 65C after bashing? This is impossible. 60-70F is ambient temperature, this temp is only possible when you are not using your bike. Your temp sensor is placed wrong or you have very low phase current?
I can get a stock Bomber with Crystalyte 65A controller to cook after 20minutes.

 

[crea2k]

The sensor is touching the windings, the controller always starts to cut out before the motor does.

 

[dockers]

Top stuff

 

[Ohbse]

crea2k - it sounds like you're having your performance limited by the high temperature of the controller. My understanding was that there's a linear rollback with FET temperature up to a cutoff temperature. You really do need to have your controller mounted in open air, you might be shocked by the increase in performance... there's no way you're getting the full power delivered if you're unable to get your motor hot.

With my Max-e mounted on the downtube I'm unable to get the controller over 45c internally - barely warm to the touch! Though I'm not running near as much power as you guys. I'm unable to keep the front wheel down at 80a battery/200a phase.

Even my current mini-e running full battery/phase on boost with WOT for extended periods barely exceeds the same temperature, airflow is critical. The only way I would suggest running the controller inclosed is direct coupling to an external heatsink directly in airflow with high quality thermal paste between surfaces and some serious clamp force/flat surfaces.

 

[Offroader]

Airflow makes such a big deal with the controllers. You could imagine just how crazy it is having hub motors sealed up without a fan blowing air through it and out.

Anyway, I learned my lesson with a controller for a 1500watt ebike kit. I always had this 1500 watt controller sitting on top of my battery bag without any issues and it was always cold to the touch. I decided to place it in a loose battery bag in the back of my bike once and couldn't believe how hot it got. This bag was also behind me, which didn't allow the controller much air flow anyway when it sat outside the battery bag.

 

[crea2k]

The thing is about mine, I cant go mounting it on the outside of the bike, because I would most probably kill the controller, as I use mine offroad 90% of the time and go through 1 foot deep river fords with it and stuff like that, so the controller being submerged would completely fry it. Iv seen the post about people siliconing it up, but even that I don't thing would stand being totally submerged. My battery box has a rubber seal around the edge, so seals the box from this. What I have been thinking of though is making a heatsink like ones that are built into laptops. Basically something like this :



So basically the copper plate bolts to the top of the current heatsink on the controller, the heat is then transferred down the copper pipes / bar to the heatsink, which then disperses the heat into the air, so the heatsink would be mounted on the outside of the box on the front, so the forward motion of the bike would force the air through the heatsink cooling it, plus when it rains it would be sprayed with water too, cooling it further. This way the box is still a sealed unit, Iv done quite a bit of copper brazing before, so shouldnt be hard to knock up, as its basically just two big blocks of copper plate connected by a bit of copper bar with a heatsink mounted to one of the plates outside the bike. If it works for laptops it should work fine for a controller.

 

[striker54]

crea2k your battery box is made of aluminium, that is a very good heat conductor. If you don't mind of gluing your controller on the box you can use this http://www.henkel.co.uk/loctite-4087.htm?nodeid=8802629353473 and all the heat from the controller will be transferred to the box.

I have made this with one of my controllers and a metal box (Steel sheet) with very good results. I bougth the coumpound from here http://xtrack.nl/.