Best bang for the buck DD Rear Hub Kit

Bullfrog

10 kW
Joined
Apr 8, 2017
Messages
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USA
Looking for some advice on which DD Rear Hub Motor Kit to buy. I have built a bunch of ebikes but never with a DD Hub motor. They have all been mid drives BBSHD and geared hubs i.e. MAC. After looking over all the available DD kits, it sort of looks like I can group the 1,000-2,000 Watt kits into three groups:

A. Those available via Amazon and EBay that include the Yescom, Voilamart, AW, JaxPety, Ebikeling, etc. kits.

B. The Leaf Bike kits: https://www.leafbike.com/

C. The RH212 and DD45 kits offered by Grin Tech: https://ebikes.ca/shop/electric-bicycle-kits.html

If I already have a 14s/52v battery and a steel frame hardtail mountain bike, what would you recommend as far as a Rear Direct Drive Hub Motor kit if I wanted to only use it on pavement, have very few hills along my path, and want a top speed in the 28-32 mph range?

Is there any particular kit listed in group "A." that I should avoid or is any one kit better than the others?

Is "B." the best compromise...all things considered?

Is "C." the way to go...sort of like the old Fram commercials, pay me now or pay me later :lol: ?

I'd like to hear your opinion/advice. IMO A., B., and C., all have advantages and disadvantages but I don't have much experience with DD Hub Motors so I am not sure which one I want to go with.

I'd like to spend as little as possible but at the same time I'd like to have something that is reliable and trustworthy so there will have to be some compromises :D .

Thank You
 
Should be which one will supply you a motor that you specify the kv for. Build your ebike around that, if you already have a battery and controller then look for a motor with the kv you require. If your building from scratch then identify what speed you want to ride at, what terrain your riding.


Bullfrog said:
Looking for some advice on which DD Rear Hub Motor Kit to buy.
 
When I say "kit" I mean I'd like to buy a motor laced to a rim either 26" or 27.5" and I need a controller, display if applicable, throttle, etc. The only thing I have is the donor bike and a 14s6p/52v battery.

All of the options I mentioned can supply an acceptable Kv/winding. Repeating..."only use it on pavement".

All of the motor options I mentioned have stators that are between 205mm and 212mm in diameter and 28-45 mm wide...some say height but I guess it depends on the orientation whether it is width or height :lol: .

Are all the controllers that come with the kits reliable for the most part? I know the Grin Tech kits are but they are also the most expensive. Has anybody used a controller that came with their "Leaf Bike" kit?

TommyCat...are you running a Golden Pie motor...if yes which one, how do you like it and did you buy your controller from them as well..and if yes which one? I'd probably put the Golden motors in the same grouping as the "Leaf Bike" kits...do you agree? I looked at the site you posted and they have a lot of options :) . Thanks
 
You realize you pay more for shipping when the motor ships laced.

Also, you realize the laced hub motors usually ship with low quality rims and low quality spokes/nipples.

Its really not that hard to lace a motor, tons of youtube channels out there to help you, but if you dont have a couple hours or have found someone to lace it for you which costs more money then buying a laced motor is an option.

You can buy a motor from Grintech at www.ebikes.ca which supplies good quality laced hubs, they also supply good quality custom cut spokes/nips/rims if you wish to lace your own.
 
markz...so you would pay a little extra and go with a kit from Grin Tech?

Grin definitely has the best quality and the best customer service IMO :D .

Shipping for the less expensive kits via Amazon/EBay is "Free" but like you said, they use lower quality rims/spokes. Of course in reality nothing is free...you pay for it one way or another :wink:.

I have a local bike shop that will lace me up for $30 if I provide the spokes so that is definitely and option. I can calculate the spoke length and buy some good Sapim spokes as well as buy the rim I want. You are starting to make the inexpensive kits via Amazon and EBay look like an option not worth pursuing...and that is OK, just what I needed to hear.
 
TommyCat...reading over the thread from your signature line now...most of the questions I asked are answered in the thread :D .
 
Free shipping is free shipping :thumb:
So if the price is good, where do you think they are skimping on the product?
Could also be the slow boat from China, instead of air shipping. Thats why its good to buy from known suppliers.

Also, realize that when you see a great price on something, like say at BMS Battery of a hub motor at $50 and your all excited and over joyed until you get to the calculation of shipping which then becomes $135 for shipping when normal shipping is say $80. Giving out random #'s here. You get the idea.

Everything I have purchased from Grintech at www.ebikes.ca has been top notch quality. I am normally a cheap skate, but I realize in the ebike game that cheaping out can cost you more in the end. I started out buying cheap RC chargers for lipo's that took forever to charge, then I purchased slightly better, then I went to good quality, original Meanwells that I broke due to my own stupidity and now I bought a good charger Grintechs Satiator charger and its great. I also have their Cycle Analyst, purchased a few sets of spokes from them, a few rims and they always come quick and packaged right.

$30 is a good price for a lace job if they do hub motors at your local bike store.

Cheap hub motors are an option, I purchased a few laced, unlaced. They are perfectly fine, but how do you know what your getting if you dont buy from known entity and you just buy from some random dude on ebay/amazon. They could send you a brick in a box, or damaged goods cuz they skimped on packaging, then what happens if you want to return the item from Mr Random Dude that has a store on ebay/amazon, then what. Ship it back to China at whos cost. Gotta buy from known sellers or roll that dice.

Bullfrog said:
markz...so you would pay a little extra and go with a kit from Grin Tech?

Grin definitely has the best quality and the best customer service IMO :D .

Shipping for the less expensive kits via Amazon/EBay is "Free" but like you said, they use lower quality rims/spokes. Of course in reality nothing is free...you pay for it one way or another :wink:.

I have a local bike shop that will lace me up for $30 if I provide the spokes so that is definitely and option. I can calculate the spoke length and buy some good Sapim spokes as well as buy the rim I want. You are starting to make the inexpensive kits via Amazon and EBay look like an option not worth pursuing...and that is OK, just what I needed to hear.
 
I agree on all accounts.

My only point on "Free" is the seller is going to make a profit whether you pay for shipping or you get it "Free" and pay with lower quality components.

I appreciate all the background info on Grin Tech and I agree it is hard to go wrong when buying from them :D .
 
Voilamart 1,500 35mm startor for 235.00 shipped from California. I think they have display as they have many different kit . Be careful because the thousand watt kit has a 28mm stator. Get a rear kit. And torque arm then you can do region if you get a different controller. I have mine at 80 volts 30 amps.
 
999zip999 said:
Voilamart 1,500 35mm startor for 235.00 shipped from California. I think they have display as they have many different kit . Be careful because the thousand watt kit has a 28mm stator. Get a rear kit. And torque arm then you can do region if you get a different controller. I have mine at 80 volts 30 amps.

999zip999....Thanks for the input, where did you get your controller and what kind/brand is it?
 
My YESCOM "1000w" kit (seem to be about $200 delivered) is six years old and still runs well (33+ mph @ 52V). Came with a 30 amp controller, and unspecified kv. There are several threads on these systems (the first one I saw was by wes newell) if you search; I think mine was "What does $600 buy"). Probably many of your choices are fine since DD motors, which basically have one moving part, seem reliable.
 
Bullfrog said:
TommyCat...are you running a Golden Pie motor...if yes which one, how do you like it and did you buy your controller from them as well..and if yes which one? I'd probably put the Golden motors in the same grouping as the "Leaf Bike" kits...do you agree? I looked at the site you posted and they have a lot of options :) . Thanks

As you've seen, I ride a lot like you described. Mostly hard road/path, but perhaps with a few more short hill climbs/drops. As it is the only kit which I have used, that being a black sided Magic Pie v5, I can't compare it to others as far as performance. But it would easily give you your speed values. I de-rated mine thru programming to adhere to state power and speed requirements.

I looked over the "leaf bike kits for reference...

The "Pie kits" have internal mounted controllers in the hub, which are BTW sinewave... very quiet.
Display and PAS sensor are at an extra cost. I don't use PAS, and I hear it's programming/user satisfaction is somewhat poor.
Has regeneration. (programmable-nice)
Has cruise. (really like!)
Reverse, if someone's build would require it.

Just a few things that come to mind... If you have a particular question. Please ask.
 
TommyCat said:
Bullfrog said:
TommyCat...are you running a Golden Pie motor...if yes which one, how do you like it and did you buy your controller from them as well..and if yes which one? I'd probably put the Golden motors in the same grouping as the "Leaf Bike" kits...do you agree? I looked at the site you posted and they have a lot of options :) . Thanks

As you've seen, I ride a lot like you described. Mostly hard road/path, but perhaps with a few more short hill climbs/drops. As it is the only kit which I have used, that being a black sided Magic Pie v5, I can't compare it to others as far as performance. But it would easily give you your speed values. I de-rated mine thru programming to adhere to state power and speed requirements.

I looked over the "leaf bike kits for reference...

The "Pie kits" have internal mounted controllers in the hub, which are BTW sinewave... very quiet.
Display and PAS sensor are at an extra cost. I don't use PAS, and I hear it's programming/user satisfaction is somewhat poor.
Has regeneration. (programmable-nice)
Has cruise. (really like!)
Reverse, if someone's build would require it.

Just a few things that come to mind... If you have a particular question. Please ask.

Thanks TommyCat :D . I was looking at the Magic Pie web site a few days ago and wondered why they didn't have any controllers for sale...now I see why, they are internal. I guess there are advantages and disadvantages to an internal controller...a lot just depends on personal preference. A few questions so anybody reading this later will understand better...
A. What voltage battery are using?
B. What maximum battery amperage to you run to the controller?
C, What maximum phase amperage does your controller send to the motor?
Thanks again :wink: .
 
Bullfrog said:
A. What voltage battery are using?

52 nominal volt (max charge of 58.8 volts), 11.5 ah, bottle type case, Li-Ion batteries.

xrkzLgd.jpg



Bullfrog said:
B. What maximum battery amperage to you run to the controller?

As mentioned previously, my set-up has been de-rated to provide 20 mph at WOT and 750 maximum wattage. (1 H.P.)
I achieve this by setting maximum Battery Drawn Current to 18 amps. And Maximum Forward Speed to 250 RPM.

I believe that the controller standard setting is 25 amps.

This is a composite screen shot with all three voltage settings displayed at once set side by side for comparison.
(provided by Bikemad)

HQuLPeQ.jpg



This is a shot of my present settings... (full disclosure, I did have to reduce my regeneration current to 30 IE: less braking force)


Uq3w0HI.jpg






Bullfrog said:
C, What maximum phase amperage does your controller send to the motor?


I believe it to be 70 amps as per the factory setpoint settings as seen above. (never changed)

For more information (technical, problems, modifications, ETC) on anything Magic Pie related See This Website!
 
My controller is a Lyen 9 fet set up for C.A. and three speed switch. It was just one that was in the drawer and I thought 30 amps is enough at 80 volts. It's an analog controller so not as quiet as a sine wave controller old school. Plus it doesn't have a off/on switch. Just a pre resistor for spark before hooking up mains. Nice to have an on-off switch on the handlebars Killswitch.
There are a lot of sine wave controllers out there nowadays some are Bluetooth so you can change the settings via your phone.
 
999zip999 said:
My controller is a Lyen 9 fet set up for C.A. and three speed switch. It was just one that was in the drawer and I thought 30 amps is enough at 80 volts. It's an analog controller so not as quiet as a sine wave controller old school. Plus it doesn't have a off/on switch. Just a pre resistor for spark before hooking up mains. Nice to have an on-off switch on the handlebars Killswitch.
There are a lot of sine wave controllers out there nowadays some are Bluetooth so you can change the settings via your phone.

999zip999...have you dealt with Ed (Lyen) much? I have two Infineon controllers that are almost new that I screwed up when attempting to change the programming. I tried to reflash them and I thought I did it successfully but neither controller works now.
They both worked perfect before I attempted to change the programming. When I hook up my little troubleshooter/tester I don't get a 5V signal...I know that means they aren't working but not sure exactly why.

I need to find somebody I can send them to and see if they are salvageable...or if it is less expensive just to scrap them and buy a new controller.

Does anybody know of someone that can help me with the Infineon Controllers? One is a 12 FET 3077 and the other is an 18 FET 4110. I may start a new thread about troubleshooting them.

Thanks
 
Lyen does sale controllers from the bay area. I had good results do have a 9fet 80v 30 a the one on my new voilmart 1,500 35mm. A 12fet with burn 5v circut and a 6fet I got for shipping cost . With good 5v circuit. Plus em3ev 12fet working . And a power velocity 18fet BT working with 35mm edge 1500 at 80v 40amp with cooling fins. And power velocity 15fet BT I need to hook up to be tested may also be down.
So Yes I'm up for controller repair thread will need a solder station. But that's an other theard.
Hey the world is full of bullfrogs whole lot of different species where's this one from. We could be neighbors ?
 
Infineon
Infineon Clone
Xie Chang

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=97394&p=1426757&hilit=Xie+Chang#p1426757

Not sure what Lyen is doing these days, I would hazard a guess that he wont be doing no repair unless you pay him a big wad. I think he moved on and it was always a side gig but I really dont know tbh.

Bullfrog said:
Does anybody know of someone that can help me with the Infineon Controllers?
 
i'd go with a leafbike '1000w' 5T motor wheel and add a 9FET controller from lyen if you are looking for the best value, not the cheapest.

This will do a peak of 1.9kw ( 40A x 48v ) and still have some room for hot rodding beyond that at higher voltages.
Get a programming cable if you wish to use features like the 20% speed boost and higher amps... :)
 
Thanks Neptronix...I wondered if you'd weigh in on this thread :D .

Is your Leaf still running OK without any problems?
 
I sold my leafmotor off in 2015 to get into 20" wheeled bikes but i remember inspecting it and it being perfect despite me beating the living hell out of it at 6kw. It was not, however, ridden in rain and other things that destroy most hub motors.

It should be reliable as any other hub motor. My only complaint is that the axle seal was squeaky from the factory but in 5 years i imagine they may have cured that. No a big problem considering it's still the most efficient DD on the market in it's size ( i'll deal with a little wart.. )
 
Best bang for how much bucks should be the question. If its a few more bucks, then the superior wheel build you get from Grin, or E-Bikekit would be the way to go. Both of those build the wheel in house. Cheap uses china built wheel.

The cheap kits from E bay, they can break spokes in the first mile, or run thousands of miles. A lot of that is determined by doing a bit of inspection and tuning before you ride, and more in the first few hundred miles as the cheap spokes stretch out. Then they settle in and will be reliable enough, unless your own ass weighs 350 pounds.

As for the cheap controllers, they can work fine. But if they don't get more, they are cheap after all. One that works when you get it will work a year or two, then something fries inside. Lower wattage ones could last longer, but you will need 30 amps to get into 30+ mph.

Usually the really cheap "48v 1000w kits" like the yes kit come with a 6t wind, producing 30 mph. Others like E-Bike kit tend to be 7t motors which produce 27 mph on 13s. Grin or EBK actually come with warranties, which does mean they tend to supply more reliable everything. Can't afford a year warranty on junk.

If you want more speed than 27, and cheap is your real goal, go with the cheap e bay kit. But keep up on your spoke tensions.

If you want more power and possibly more speed, then go with much wider stators, so you can go 40 mph later without having the motor burn up. Thats more bang for sure, but also more bucks.
 
Thanks dogman dan. Great advice, I appreciate it. I am leaning towards either the RH212 or DD45 kit from Grin Tech but I need to check out the offerings at E-Bikekit.

Does anybody know of a reason I couldn't or shouldn't use the RH212 (rear motor) kit on the front of a fat tire bike that has 135mm spacing on the forks? I have a Mongoose Hitch available with no motor on it right now and I was thinking about trying the RH212 kit on the front of it and later moving it to the rear of a hardtail with 135mm rear dropouts.

Thanks
 
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