Best bang for the buck DD Rear Hub Kit

[markz]

Whats the kv or turn count of the motor?

is the torque curve on most of these DD motors somewhat proportionate to the amperage? I took my 9c clone off road the other day and it lacked the grunt to get up and go with the 23 amps i was feeding it (48v so around 1kw)

 

[Chalo]

is the torque curve on most of these DD motors somewhat proportionate to the amperage?

Initial torque is proportional to phase current, which is proportional to battery current most of the time.

Torque per phase amp is proportional to winding turn count.

 

[Manbeer]

I believe its a 7t, i last tore it down during the summer and should remember but it has been a busy year. Beyond 5mph or so the pull is fine, just trying to figure out if i will ever be satisfied with the pull of this thing or if its off to the scrap pile. the bike is literally a slapped together old proflex 855 with total parts bin build that i did out of sheer boredom. Surprisingly the frame feels pretty good though.
Option B would be to toss a q100 or something up front and just have it for assist on start, but it probably wont warrant the effort. I do have the spare parts to do it so i suppose it depends on how bored i get

 

[markz]

Buy a new controller with more amps, thats if your battery can handle it.
You could relace hub motor into a smaller wheel to give you more torque. I did look at your bike you mention so we can assume its a 26" then go 24", but if you have non disc brakes then you have no brakes on that wheel. Having 2 motors on a bike gets more cumbersome, more complicated, more wiring, more weight.

 

[amberwolf]

Does anybody know of a reason I couldn't or shouldn't use the RH212 (rear motor) kit on the front of a fat tire bike that has 135mm spacing on the forks?

As long as the fork's dropouts can take it and a suitable torque arm (set) is properly installed, should work fine.
I used a Stromer rear UltraMotor on a fatbike fork for the front of SB Cruiser and it "worked' fine...although I found a problem with the fork quality that forced me to remove it before I got to test the motor with a controller (just as a wheel riding around for some time).

Rear motor on front:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=86600&p=1610761#p1466764

The small quality issue with fork:

 

[Bullfrog]

Update and a question.....

Ended up buying a Schwinn Shuffle Scooter (Kick Bike) as opposed to using a bicycle for this project:
https://www.schwinnbikes.com/products/shuffle-adult-scooter

Put it together and rode down some local hills and the stability is not as good as I expected so I would like to limit my top speed to around 20 mph on flat ground. Plan to run a 13s4p (48v) battery with 30Q cells. Also plan to mount the motor in the rear wheel which uses a 20" diameter rim and the frame spacing (OLD) in the rear is 100mm.

I wanted to try one of the very inexpensive motors from Amazon/EBay like the Jaxpety, AW, Voilamart...but it doesn't appear there is anything available in a 20" rim with a 100mm width . After searching and reading about every motor in the world :lol: , it looks like the only options for a Direct Drive Hub or Geared Hub motor where I can get the Kv I want are "MAC", "Leaf Bike" and "Grin Tech".

Plan to mount my battery on the down tube using Grin Tech's Bottle Bobs and hose clamps holding the Bottle Bobs in place as well as around the entire battery assembly with pieces of inner tube placed between the hose clamps and the downtube to prevent scratches. Controller mounting is dependent on which controller I end up using but a stand alone Baserunner from Grin will fit on the bottom side of the footboard between the frame rails :wink:.

Question...Any info on motors, pointers on the build, or ideas I may have overlooked?

Thank You :thumb:

 

[Bullfrog]

Update and a question.....

Ended up buying a Schwinn Shuffle Scooter (Kick Bike) as opposed to using a bicycle for this project:
https://www.schwinnbikes.com/products/shuffle-adult-scooter

Put it together and rode down some local hills and the stability is not as good as I expected so I would like to limit my top speed to around 20 mph on flat ground. Plan to run a 13s4p (48v) battery with 30Q cells. Also plan to mount the motor in the rear wheel which uses a 20" diameter rim and the frame spacing (OLD) in the rear is 100mm.

I wanted to try one of the very inexpensive motors from Amazon/EBay like the Jaxpety, AW, Voilamart...but it doesn't appear there is anything available in a 20" rim with a 100mm width . After searching and reading about every motor in the world :lol: , it looks like the only options for a Direct Drive Hub or Geared Hub motor where I can get the Kv I want are "MAC", "Leaf Bike" and "Grin Tech".

Plan to mount my battery on the down tube using Grin Tech's Bottle Bobs and hose clamps holding the Bottle Bobs in place as well as around the entire battery assembly with pieces of inner tube placed between the hose clamps and the downtube to prevent scratches. Controller mounting is dependent on which controller I end up using but a stand alone Baserunner from Grin will fit on the bottom side of the footboard between the frame rails :wink:.

Question...Any info on motors, pointers on the build, or ideas I may have overlooked?

Thank You :thumb:

Just a quick update on what I did with the Schwinn Shuffle scooter...bought a Bafang geared hub kit from Amazon and installed it with a 48v EM3ev battery I already had. Top speed on level ground was 21-22 mph. The kit was 750 watts max so it slowed down to about 12 mph on relatively steep hills with me on it (210 lbs). No temp sensor but the motor never got hot to the touch. This is the kit I bought...it was $336 delivered:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07QD5S44K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I did not particularly care for the scooter...just didn't feel as connected to it as a bike. Ended up selling it to a neighbor who really enjoys it. I did not use a torque reaction arm...the motor came with two tabbed washers and the Schwinn Shuffle had a steel frame (front motor installed on the rear of the scooter due to dropout width). I did ensure the axle nuts were as tight as possible without stripping the threads. Supposedly the motor put out about 65 NM of torque and IMO that is about the limit for steel dropouts. Grin Tech has some good info and graphs regarding torque arms and axle spin out for anyone that is interested: https://ebikes.ca/product-info/grin-products/torque-arms.html

Contemplating my next build now and I am leaning towards using a kit sold by AW via Amazon that cost about $250 delivered. It has a controller that can put out 26A max. This is a link to the exact kit I am contemplating:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00Q8JT9H2/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_1?smid=A2V0U2CDI8OSTK&psc=1

Both of the kits I listed above are among the least expensive kits available. I don't expect either to produce "High Performance" by any means. They both seem to be decent and OK for the price.

After all of my research and testing...if I was going to build an ebike for general purpose use on paved and/or smooth surfaces and was going to use a Direct Drive hub motor, I think I'd go with one from Leaf: https://www.leafbike.com/ or Grin Tech: https://ebikes.ca/getting-started/hub-motor-options.html.

I appreciate all of the responses, help, and recommendations along the way...you guys are awesome :wink: . Thank YOU

 

[markz]

Its probably been said, but what exactly do you mean by "Best bang for the buck" because that is a pretty generic term.

If you mean efficiency then there is no denying the Leaf 1500W 35H motor that Neptronix found.

If you mean power, then Crotia's Cromotor could be on the list, or their mother the QS.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=108801&p=1592811&hilit=croatia+motor#p1592811
Then there is the MXUS 3 and 5kw. Someone posted about the difference between the two.

If you just want dirt cheap, then perhaps Voilmart wins that one, $200 gets you the kit without battery. Or you could say YESCOMUSA wins, or anyone of the countless other generic hub motors sold on ebay but most of the time you have no idea what size motor those are, or how reputable the sellers really are. If your just going on some rando or where other ES members have purchased from. Could even debate if BMSBattery and their Q11 motor (DD) would win, but remember they have higher shipping prices but lower product prices.

Finally, what about sales, service and support? I'd suggest that Grintech wins that one www.ebikes.ca or EM3EV if they were selling DD hub motors.

 

[2old]

I purchased a YESCOM kit, similat to the AW above, about six years ago (30 amp controller) and it's been a solid performer at 52V although the mileage isn't particularly high since I eschew street riding as much as possible these days. Only needed to tweak the wheel tension a couple of times during this period, otherwise problem-free.

 

[markz]

Why are you avoiding riding on the streets? Sounds like potholes are tweaking your wheel, or is there a combination of problems?

I purchased a YESCOM kit, similat to the AW above, about six years ago (30 amp controller) and it's been a solid performer at 52V although the mileage isn't particularly high since I eschew street riding as much as possible these days. Only needed to tweak the wheel tension a couple of times during this period, otherwise problem-free.

 

[2old]

Great roads in CA which is why we pay more taxes than other states. Don't want to become a hood ornament.

 

[markz]

Don't want to become a hood ornament.

Yeah I thought there was more to it then just road quality. Seems to me there is a lot of hit & runs in Cali, being 40M population with lots of illegals not wanting to get caught. Wiki says 253.6/sq mi (97.9/km2). Cali also has some of the best police chases.

 

[Bullfrog]

Its probably been said, but what exactly do you mean by "Best bang for the buck" because that is a pretty generic term.

If you mean efficiency then there is no denying the Leaf 1500W 35H motor that Neptronix found.

If you mean power, then Crotia's Cromotor could be on the list, or their mother the QS.
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=108801&p=1592811&hilit=croatia+motor#p1592811
Then there is the MXUS 3 and 5kw. Someone posted about the difference between the two.

If you just want dirt cheap, then perhaps Voilmart wins that one, $200 gets you the kit without battery. Or you could say YESCOMUSA wins, or anyone of the countless other generic hub motors sold on ebay but most of the time you have no idea what size motor those are, or how reputable the sellers really are. If your just going on some rando or where other ES members have purchased from. Could even debate if BMSBattery and their Q11 motor (DD) would win, but remember they have higher shipping prices but lower product prices.

Finally, what about sales, service and support? I'd suggest that Grintech wins that one www.ebikes.ca or EM3EV if they were selling DD hub motors.

I like all of your definitions of "Best", good job :wink: . I didn't define "Best" because I didn't want to limit responses. Like you pointed out, there are multiple definitions of "Best" and I wanted to hear everyone's opinion .

For the current project I am working on, best is the most reliable DD hub motor kit that includes a controller, a display, and a motor already laced to a wheel for less than $250 but if I said that in the beginning, I probably wouldn't get any responses. For the next project I undertake, "Best" may be totally different :lol: .

 

[Bullfrog]

Why are you avoiding riding on the streets? Sounds like potholes are tweaking your wheel, or is there a combination of problems?

I purchased a YESCOM kit, similat to the AW above, about six years ago (30 amp controller) and it's been a solid performer at 52V although the mileage isn't particularly high since I eschew street riding as much as possible these days. Only needed to tweak the wheel tension a couple of times during this period, otherwise problem-free.

I have a mid drive ebike for off road. A DD is too heavy plus it doesn't have enough torque unless you feed it some serious amperage where I can gear the mid drive for more torque at the rear wheel. A geared hub can't handle the roots/rocks without small parts inside the motor coming apart...been there done that.

For good roads...both a geared hub and a DD hub work well. Just depends on how you want it to perform.

 

[Bullfrog]

Crystalyte H5580 and H55100...does anybody have any experience or info about them?

I believe Stealth electric bikes is using the H55 motor now.

It should produce pretty good torque since it has a stator that is 55mm wide...that is 5mm wider than the QS205 and the Cromotor. Diameter of the H55 is probably the same as the QS, I just haven't been able to verify it. I did see where the H55 is 135mm wide so it should fit great in most donor bikes.

 

[Bullfrog]

More updates on what I have tried and where I am headed.....

Bought a "AW" brand...1,000w DD conversion kit via Amazon and the controller that came with it had a maximum output 30A (battery amps) so I am not sure how they came up with 1,000w since 48V X 30A = 1,440 watts. It had a stator that was ~205mm in diameter and 27mm wide....that narrow stator really limits the torque output of the motor and the motor gets very hot. Installation was a piece of cake so if anybody is looking for a decent ebike conversion kit that doesn't have a lot of power, I'd recomend the AW kit...it also came with a Z910 connector between the controller and the motor so removing the motor from the bike was super easy. I used a 52V/14s battery even though the advertisement said 48V and I never had any problems.

Since I am used to the acceleration my MAC provides, which is more than any DD motor if fed the same amperage, the 27mm wide DD motor felt awfully wimpy. Not sure what I am going to try next but I want to try a DD motor with a wider stator...somewhere in the 45mm-55mm wide range. That is why I was asking if anyone had experience with the Crystalyte H55 series of motors...they have a 135mm dropout requirement and their stator is 55mm wide. Other options include a QS205, MXUS 3KW, Cromotor, and of course the Crystalyte H55. There may be others, my DD experience and knowledge is lacking.

I am very comfortable saying the best mid drive motor is a BBSHD and the best IGH motor is a MAC/GMAC (IMO of course), but I need some help finding a good DD motor for riding on pavement and commuting...I have both a 52V-14s6p and a 72V-20s/5p battery available. if anybody has a recommendation for a DD motor with a 45-55mm wide stator, I sure would appreciate some info about the motor and the controllers that work well with it...Thank You.

 

[999zip999]

Just get a Mxus 3000 v3 3t @ 72v. It is a little heavy but I like it very much mine is a 4t v2. 72v @ 60ap now 40amp. I bought a beer motor and I taught myself how to lace it up as I need it a rim with rim brakes for my project.
I have a Crystalyte 3540 and it makes a thump thump thump I think I have to replace the axle. I did have a 5503 I think it has a 35 mm wide and it had tons of power and very heavy. I would go straight to the mxus v3 a 3t order a bare motor some quality spam 13/14 butted spokes and a good rim of your liking.

 

[2old]

Amazon has an NB "3000w" kit with 80 amp controller and 135 spacing that has mixed reviews for $600; have you considered that system?

 

[Bullfrog]

Just get a Mxus 3000 v3 3t @ 72v. It is a little heavy but I like it very much mine is a 4t v2. 72v @ 60ap now 40amp. I bought a beer motor and I taught myself how to lace it up as I need it a rim with rim brakes for my project.
I have a Crystalyte 3540 and it makes a thump thump thump I think I have to replace the axle. I did have a 5503 I think it has a 35 mm wide and it had tons of power and very heavy. I would go straight to the mxus v3 a 3t order a bare motor some quality spam 13/14 butted spokes and a good rim of your liking.

Where did you get your MXUS 3K motor?

Have you seen them anywhere with the motor already laced in a rim?

Thanks

 

[Chalo]

Have you seen them anywhere with the motor already laced in a rim?

Nothing good comes of using the wheels laced to hub motors. Unless you get them built to order from an outfit like Grin Technologies in Vancouver BC, what you get is the cheapest most horrible rim money can buy, built up with the cheapest way-too-thick plain steel spokes and nipples money can buy, assembled by a child in a hurry.

 

[Bullfrog]

Amazon has an NB "3000w" kit with 80 amp controller and 135 spacing that has mixed reviews for $600; have you considered that system?

I have seen that one and I asked NB Power who makes the motor for them and the answer I got was "NB Power"....I don't believe that NB Power manufactures any motors so I am a little reluctant to buy something if I can't verify who made it. It might be a great motor, I just have no way of telling.

Thanks for the info .

 

[Bullfrog]

Nothing good comes of using the wheels laced to hub motors. Unless you get them built to order from an outfit like Grin Technologies in Vancouver BC, what you get is the cheapest most horrible rim money can buy, built up with the cheapest way-too-thick plain steel spokes and nipples money can buy, assembled by a child in a hurry.

Thanks Chalo...and what you said is very true...I would not order any motor laced in a rim unless I could specify/verify the quality of the components being used.

EM3ev used to lace the MAC motors they sold using decent quality components but they no longer sell the MAC motor. Grin Tech does do good work .

 

[999zip999]

Sorry to tell you if you buy a laced motor expect cheap nipples cheap spokes cheap rim loose spokes.
By the motor buy some decent spokes by a decent rim if you can't do it find someone that can. That way it will last.

Simple

 

[amberwolf]

I have seen that one and I asked NB Power who makes the motor for them and the answer I got was "NB Power"....I don't believe that NB Power manufactures any motors so I am a little reluctant to buy something if I can't verify who made it.

There's some discussion about NBP elsewhere, and the general conclusion is that QSMotors probably makes their stuff (but it probably depends on which specific motor model you're looking at).

 

[Bullfrog]

There's some discussion about NBP elsewhere, and the general conclusion is that QSMotors probably makes their stuff (but it probably depends on which specific motor model you're looking at).

Thanks amberwolf...if QS is making their motors, I'd consider that a good thing.

I'll ask NBPower again in a different way so hopefully I can get a legitimate answer.