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Best bang for the buck DD Rear Hub Kit

dogman dan said:
Best bang for how much bucks should be the question. If its a few more bucks, then the superior wheel build you get from Grin, or E-Bikekit would be the way to go. Both of those build the wheel in house. Cheap uses china built wheel.

The cheap kits from E bay, they can break spokes in the first mile, or run thousands of miles. A lot of that is determined by doing a bit of inspection and tuning before you ride, and more in the first few hundred miles as the cheap spokes stretch out. Then they settle in and will be reliable enough, unless your own ass weighs 350 pounds.

As for the cheap controllers, they can work fine. But if they don't get more, they are cheap after all. One that works when you get it will work a year or two, then something fries inside. Lower wattage ones could last longer, but you will need 30 amps to get into 30+ mph.

Usually the really cheap "48v 1000w kits" like the yes kit come with a 6t wind, producing 30 mph. Others like E-Bike kit tend to be 7t motors which produce 27 mph on 13s. Grin or EBK actually come with warranties, which does mean they tend to supply more reliable everything. Can't afford a year warranty on junk.

If you want more speed than 27, and cheap is your real goal, go with the cheap e bay kit. But keep up on your spoke tensions.

If you want more power and possibly more speed, then go with much wider stators, so you can go 40 mph later without having the motor burn up. Thats more bang for sure, but also more bucks.

Questions regarding the E-Bikekit offerings...Do they offer a Direct Drive Hub Motor/Wheel with a Kv/winding that will exceed 20 mph@48v? Only DD motor/kit I saw said "20 mph at 48 Volt" and I'd like something that will do ~30 mph@52v.

Thanks
 
For what it's worth, Leaf Bike will give you whatever winding/kV they can manufacture, on request. They don't charge extra for that.
 
Bullfrog said:
Does anybody know of a reason I couldn't or shouldn't use the RH212 (rear motor) kit on the front of a fat tire bike that has 135mm spacing on the forks? I have a Mongoose Hitch available with no motor on it right now and I was thinking about trying the RH212 kit on the front of it and later moving it to the rear of a hardtail with 135mm rear dropouts.

You could probably get away with it, but the front wheel is the worst place to put a high powered motor because it has the least traction and will induce some negative steering effects ( you'll absolutely feel the weight while turning.. )

The RH212 is a good motor when you have tall wheels ( these fatbikes come in at 700c-size tire diameters ) and so is the magic pie, due to their higher pole count than a 9C clone. This means more low end torque potential. However, a 9C clone type motor can still produce more torque than you know what to do with.. perhaps less efficiently at the lower RPM range.

ebikekit motors likely have a better wheel build quality than the leafies, but i have heard no complaints about the wheel build quality on a leaf and know that leafmotor stator construction is still top notch when it comes to power/efficiency... and come with standard issue ugly and fat hall sensor connectors which fit a wider range of controllers... so no rewiring is needed to run on say, a lyen controller. I like this about the leaf too.
 
TommyCat said:
I ride on the Magic Pie 5 rear hub motor with internal controller.
See it here...
https://goldenmotor.bike/product/magic-pie-5-vector-26-inch-rear-conversion-kit/

It welcomes a 52 volt nominal battery. (but expect a skewed battery indicator if you use the BAC-601 display or throttle LEDs)

Click the link in my signature below to see how I installed/programmed it.

Regards,
T.C.
Bingo. Golden Motors has the best bang for the buck. Not that there aren't better options, but none that I know of that provide the same level of value which includes customer service and reliability.
 
Every generation of golden motor internal controller seems prone to early failure... and basically every internal controllered hub motor has had this same problem.. so i'd subtract some bang/buck units for that.

The external controller motors are great because they have more thermal mass than most hubs do, due to the inclusion of the area the controller is meant to be bolted into. :)
 
neptronix said:
You could probably get away with it, but the front wheel is the worst place to put a high powered motor because it has the least traction and will induce some negative steering effects ( you'll absolutely feel the weight while turning.. )

My experience with riding both of my front hub motor bikes on the Formula One track suggests that front drive is a benefit handlng-wise. Rolling into the power when leaned way over tended to lean the bike in very slightly more, but gave the sensation of "hooking up" as the bike was pulled, rather than pushed, through the turn.

Mind you I was riding at power levels of only about 1800W maximum from the battery, and the motor would only pull noticeably up to about 35 mph. So these were effects I noticed only in very tight turns.
 
The only reason I would put a motor on the front of a bike with steel forks is because I already have one on the rear.
In the for sale section here Lynn has a 9 fet for sale for $89 plus options. It's an old ad but he answered me not too long ago. Like the next day a week ago right here on E.S. so more than just a pulse. Thanks Lyen.
Wow Lyen first posted that add 2010.
 
Yep, Ed (Lyen) has been in the game a long time. My dealings with him have all been good.

As far as a front or rear mounting...I agree with Chalo that a front mounting can have some advantages i.e. pulling you into the corner but I prefer a rear mount...all things considered and the biggest reason is I tend to run high amperage/torque and I don't like pulling on a fork that hard :lol: .

Just read that the RH212 has a stator width of 27mm...that is pretty narrow. Used the Grin Tech Motor Simulator and the RH211 and the Leaf have very similar performance...the 212 gets it from an increased diameter and the Leaf gets it from the stator width...to some extent.

Now I am leaning towards the DD45 or other 40-50mm wide stator motors. After considering the quality of the wheel builds, if I don't buy from somebody that uses Sapim spokes or similar good quality, I'll just buy the motor and have my LBS lace it up with good spokes. A little extra step and a little more effort but worth it in the long run to have a quality wheel build and not have to worry about it when I am doing 30 mph or faster if going downhill :lol: .

Sooo in the 40-50mm stator width motors, anybody have a preference and is 50mm too wide and too heavy to work well on most hardtail bikes that have a 135mm OLD? I know at one point many years ago, the Crystalyte motors were the ticket but it seems there are some better options now.

Thanks everyone...I appreciate all the inputs and the discussion :wink: .
 
dd45 is a good motor if you need to do over 40mph continuously. Otherwise it is utter overkill. A leafmotor 35mm ( aka 1500w but in reality more like 2000w rated ) will do 40mph continuously in a tuck and is the lightest DD you can get in a 26" wheel size that will do that.

I'd of course very strongly advise against >2000w on a front motor even if you've got a nice steel fork. You will start seeing a steel fork bend and twist under acceleration above 1000w

Sapim spokes are nice to have but not necessary. an 18lb+ hub like the DD45 should have thicker spokes and not the narrowest ones you can get away with.
 
I agree 100% on not using anything over about 1,500W in the front :wink: .

If I go to a 40-50mm stator it will be going in the rear of a steel framed hardtail .
 
neptronix said:
Every generation of golden motor internal controller seems prone to early failure... and basically every internal controllered hub motor has had this same problem.. so i'd subtract some bang/buck units for that.

The external controller motors are great because they have more thermal mass than most hubs do, due to the inclusion of the area the controller is meant to be bolted into. :)

So long as one doesn't over ride the thermal protection settings failures are pretty rare.
 
I'm running my edge 1500 35 mm motor at 80 volts 40 amps 3200 Watts with cooling fins this is the one with aluminum stator. Okay I mailed the magnets off of it and had a Greek loom with J-B weld but the first one I got we're talking about an edge motor now I melted the magnets off and all it was was black powder dust they're just putting the magnets on with rubber cement at temp of 120 degrees on
I have the muxus 45mm v3 4t needs new bicycle rim Andre spoke 13/14 spam spokes .Needed bass washes under the heads so No to break.
 
"muxus 45mm v3 4t"...now we are talking :D .

I believe MXUS makes the DD45 for Grin Tech...can anybody verify?

I like the QS205 series as well...I believe they are 50mm stators, can anybody verify this one?

A few years back, Crystalyte was the go to option for big hub motors but from everything I have read lately, they have not kept up with the advancements that MXUS, QS, and a few other companies have been putting in their products. Any opinions?

If you go back to this article from 2015, Spinningmagnets lists the options at the time and our own Neptronix supplied the pic of the Leaf motor in the article :D .
 
dogman dan said:
Best bang for how much bucks should be the question. If its a few more bucks, then the superior wheel build you get from Grin, or E-Bikekit would be the way to go. Both of those build the wheel in house. Cheap uses china built wheel.

The cheap kits from E bay, they can break spokes in the first mile, or run thousands of miles. A lot of that is determined by doing a bit of inspection and tuning before you ride, and more in the first few hundred miles as the cheap spokes stretch out. Then they settle in and will be reliable enough, unless your own ass weighs 350 pounds.

Usually the really cheap "48v 1000w kits" like the yes kit come with a 6t wind, producing 30 mph. Others like E-Bike kit tend to be 7t motors which produce 27 mph on 13s. Grin or EBK actually come with warranties, which does mean they tend to supply more reliable everything. Can't afford a year warranty on junk.

If you want more speed than 27, and cheap is your real goal, go with the cheap e bay kit. But keep up on your spoke tensions.

For bang for the buck, it's hard to beat the cheap ebay kits. Mine was $150, not sure what the winding is, but it tops out at 22 mph on 52V, 23 mph hot off the charger. I didn't use the kit controller so it was another $100 for that. The current PV controller cost my $150 used on ebay, 70A/200A, 7kW, and allows me to run 72V. So $300 for kit and controller, which I could run without the cycle analyst (the CA keeps me from accidentally flipping backwards), it seems like a good bang for the buck. With 72V and field weakening, it will hit 38 mph, or 40 mph hot off the charger. The rim is a piece of crap though, so I can see a future upgrade.
 
E-HP said:
dogman dan said:
Best bang for how much bucks should be the question. If its a few more bucks, then the superior wheel build you get from Grin, or E-Bikekit would be the way to go. Both of those build the wheel in house. Cheap uses china built wheel.

The cheap kits from E bay, they can break spokes in the first mile, or run thousands of miles. A lot of that is determined by doing a bit of inspection and tuning before you ride, and more in the first few hundred miles as the cheap spokes stretch out. Then they settle in and will be reliable enough, unless your own ass weighs 350 pounds.

Usually the really cheap "48v 1000w kits" like the yes kit come with a 6t wind, producing 30 mph. Others like E-Bike kit tend to be 7t motors which produce 27 mph on 13s. Grin or EBK actually come with warranties, which does mean they tend to supply more reliable everything. Can't afford a year warranty on junk.

If you want more speed than 27, and cheap is your real goal, go with the cheap e bay kit. But keep up on your spoke tensions.

For bang for the buck, it's hard to beat the cheap ebay kits. Mine was $150, not sure what the winding is, but it tops out at 22 mph on 52V, 23 mph hot off the charger. I didn't use the kit controller so it was another $100 for that. The current PV controller cost my $150 used on ebay, 70A/200A, 7kW, and allows me to run 72V. So $300 for kit and controller, which I could run without the cycle analyst (the CA keeps me from accidentally flipping backwards), it seems like a good bang for the buck. With 72V and field weakening, it will hit 38 mph, or 40 mph hot off the charger. The rim is a piece of crap though, so I can see a future upgrade.

E-HP...which kit did you by off of EBay, do you have a link or brand?

Are you running a temp sensor and if yes, what kind of temps do you see?

I know some people are enamored with Statorade and it is good stuff but IMO a low viscosity automatic transmission fluid works almost as good for heat transfer and in a geared hub motor it works great...unless you leak some on your brake rotor and ATF is a lot less expensive than Statorade. I actually used distilled water in my MAC for about six months along with some corrosion inhibitor (Motul MoCool) and had no problems or issues. Usually water and electricity/electronics don't mix so I'd be very cautious if you even consider it. I used it because it is not slippery like ATF and when I leaked a little on my rear rotor, my brakes were not affected.
 
Bullfrog said:
E-HP...which kit did you by off of EBay, do you have a link or brand?

Are you running a temp sensor and if yes, what kind of temps do you see?

I know some people are enamored with Statorade and it is good stuff but IMO a low viscosity automatic transmission fluid works almost as good for heat transfer and in a geared hub motor it works great...unless you leak some on your brake rotor and ATF is a lot less expensive than Statorade. I actually used distilled water in my MAC for about six months along with some corrosion inhibitor (Motul MoCool) and had no problems or issues. Usually water and electricity/electronics don't mix so I'd be very cautious if you even consider it. I used it because it is not slippery like ATF and when I leaked a little on my rear rotor, my brakes were not affected.

I was a cheap generic kit, $143
https://www.ebay.com/p/23004982760?iid=322440778491
but they look like they're selling for about $175 now.
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=1000w+ebike+rear+hub&_sacat=0&LH_TitleDesc=0&_sop=15
Mine came with a MXUS motor, and I added Statorade. I use my hand to measure temps. I don't ride fast, but climb a lot of hills, and stop to check the motor if it's a sustained climb over 10%.
 
Its been a few years since I worked for Ebikekit. I thought he still had the normal wind dd motors. The slow ones are intended for trikes.

A cheap 135 mm wide rear motor should work ok on a front fork of a fat bike. There are affordable rear fat bike kits though, on ali express or such.
 
dogman dan said:
Its been a few years since I worked for Ebikekit. I thought he still had the normal wind dd motors. The slow ones are intended for trikes.

A cheap 135 mm wide rear motor should work ok on a front fork of a fat bike. There are affordable rear fat bike kits though, on ali express or such.

Thanks dogman dan.

I got a response from Grin Tech and they said no problem installing a RH212 on the front or the rear of a bike with 135mm forks/rear dropouts. But with the RH212 having a 27mm wide stator and being a little larger diameter...it would not fit my needs at all due to "appearing" to be a big motor. I got stopped by a local LEO and IMO one of the only reasons he let me off with a warning was because I was running a MAC and it appeared to be a small motor :lol: . Good thing he didn't know it would accelerate faster than a big hub motor at the same amperage and had a top speed of about 27 mph with the 29x2.6" tire I was running.
 
After doing a bunch of runs using the Grin Tech Motor Simulator, it looks like the power levels I want to run and the acceleration I'd like to achieve are going to require something larger than most of the DD Hub motors we have been discussing.

What is the biggest/heaviest/most powerful DD Hub Motor you would recommend mounting in a good 27.5" bicycle rim and then in turn mounting on the rear of a steel framed hardtail?

A few of the potential options that I know about are the DD45 from Grin Tech, the QS205 (50H), the QS273, this 3KW rated motor from MXUS: http://www.mxusebikekit.com/proshow.aspx?cateid=68&productsid=200 that weighs 10 Kg, Cromotor, 40 series Crystalyte Crown, or are there other options that have a 205mm or larger diameter and a 40mm or wider stator that I have missed?

If there is a thread somewhere on Endless Sphere that discusses the largest/heaviest motor you should mount in a bicycle rim, please point me to it...I did not find anything when I searched.

Thanks
 
Bullfrog said:
After doing a bunch of runs using the Grin Tech Motor Simulator, it looks like the power levels I want to run and the acceleration I'd like to achieve are going to require something larger than most of the DD Hub motors we have been discussing.

What is the biggest/heaviest/most powerful DD Hub Motor you would recommend mounting in a good 27.5" bicycle rim and then in turn mounting on the rear of a steel framed hardtail?

A few of the potential options that I know about are the DD45 from Grin Tech, the QS205 (50H), the QS273, this 3KW rated motor from MXUS: http://www.mxusebikekit.com/proshow.aspx?cateid=68&productsid=200 that weighs 10 Kg, Cromotor, 40 series Crystalyte Crown, or are there other options that have a 205mm or larger diameter and a 40mm or wider stator that I have missed?

If there is a thread somewhere on Endless Sphere that discusses the largest/heaviest motor you should mount in a bicycle rim, please point me to it...I did not find anything when I searched.

Thanks

Sounds like you scrapped the idea of using your existing battery. You'll need a huge one. What donor bike are you building on?
 
Steel framed Mongoose Terrex is the donor bike...142mm OLD so I can squeeze it down to 135mm if needed or spread it a little bit if I need to go wider. Plan to run a Schwalbe Super Moto-X tire 27.5x2.8" and lace the motor to a good aluminum dual wall rim.

I have two batteries both 14s6p one BMS is capable of 60A and the other is capable of 80A.

IMO a QS273 is too heavy for a bicycle rim. Not sure about the QS205 (50H) or the Cromotor...but they would probably be pushing it. I know the DD45 is OK. The MXUS 45H is probably OK...never seen one.

Just looking for advice on how big/heavy I can safely go and still run a bicycle rim...since I somewhat want it to appear to be a bicycle :D .

I believe the Crystalyte options are inferior to the ones I mentioned above...any info would be appreciated.
 
What is the biggest/heaviest/most powerful DD Hub Motor you would recommend mounting in a good 27.5" bicycle rim and then in turn mounting on the rear of a steel framed hardtail?

With or without modificiations or fabrication?
With - 5kw Mxus has a wider axle flats dimensions, 155mm or something like that, dont quote me on that, might be 150mm.
Double stator motors
Motocycle motors like QS has lots for 8kw

Without - You got it correct, mxus 3kw, qs, cromo's etc you listed all fall within 135-140mm dropout widths for 135mm dropout bicycles. But if you add cooling and fins you can get more power. Then match whatever motor with correct controller.
 
is the torque curve on most of these DD motors somewhat proportionate to the amperage? I took my 9c clone off road the other day and it lacked the grunt to get up and go with the 23 amps i was feeding it (48v so around 1kw)

when i ran it in the motor simulator it looked like the torque basically doubled when i went to 40a. im thinking the 80-90nm should do the trick. Since the batteries I have won't cut it (30a BMS) I figured before I take the plunge on a new controller and battery for that thing I would see what other peoples experience was. Thinking that 52v setup with a 40a KT or infineon Will do the trick for a quick and dirty e motorcross setup on this old proflex Provided I'm not looking to go much above 30 and mainly looking for punch down low
 
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