Bonanza "Bulldozer" Dual PhaseRunner AWD

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Made it home safely. Took a leisurely pace, opposite of usual easy in fast home, we did fast in and easy home today. Indicated 5.1 amp hours on the home trip, 26 watt hours per mile. Kept the pace at 15-20 mph, pedaled a bit, drifted down the hills. Hit 33 somewhere but mostly an easier pace.

Wish I had my air horn onboard. One truck came across the solid white line and too close. Need to make loud noises when that happens.

The rear brakes are really screeching LOUD. Need to look at that.
 
Very nice, I assume the lake located near El Sobrante and Orland? Today was very nice weather and I took 2 girls on my Yuba Mundo cargo bike and it was beautiful breeze/ :lol: :thumbup:
 
Yes, this lake is located near El Sobrante.

I charged up the pack, and clearly the calibration of my Cycle Analyst is off. I added a 0.1 bypass capacitor to the 5V (as instructed to by ebikes.ca) and that has shifted the calibration substantially. The charger put in 3.7 amp hours in all three series 6S sections. So that would be 260 watt hours and in 13 miles that's 20 watt hours per mile.

On the inbound route the calibration shift would indicate that instead of using 10+ amp hours it only used about 7. This is inconsistent with the voltage drooping at the end, so I'm not sure the Cycle Analyst readings are stable yet. At work I didn't have the RC charger cable so I bulk charged so I don't have confirming charge data.

I'll probably send this CA back for service as soon as the V3beta unit arrives. Not sure when that will be as they have been delayed. Now shipped!
 
Commute to work

Took it easy this morning. Same CA calibration. Pedaled a lot, but not hard, not enough to sweat or breathe hard.

68.5 V resting after arrival
5.3 AH
13.8 mi
27.7 wh/mi
389 wh
24.6 amax
66.0 vmin (note that this is the minimum voltage, clearly not the nominal value!)
55 min
14.9 avs mph
30.5 maxs

12 fet controller cold
9c 6x10 just warm
tires schwalbe big apple 40 psi

18S 10AH Turnigy Lipo pack

This is probably the least energy I've used coming in to work.

Bulk Charging now, not going to get numbers from that. Will check balance with celllog.
 
Alan B said:
zombiess said:
Alan B said:
Another thing that would be fun to set up is Ham Radio APRS that sends GPS position reports. I suppose the Droid can do that too. Amazing how many of these current trendy tech things were invented years ago on Ham Radio.

N3RCG agrees with you. It's amazing how far we have come as well. Been a ham since I was 13, 33 now.

QSL es 73 de WB6ZQZ. Started at 13 myself, but that was a long time ago.

Hey guys was just reading this older stuff.

Im VK2TOL :)
 
amberwolf said:
Used to be KA5TWP...havent' had my equipment for a looong time now, so never updated/renewed my license. :(

Amber, it is easy to get a new Ham License now, and if you get one perhaps some ham radio gear will show up in one of those those care packages. Also the hams in your area would be a good resource for you, and you for them. It is a lot cheaper than a cellphone and would give you some communications from your bike, even while in motion if you wanted to.

de W6AKB
 
Took the Novara ebike out for a spin today to get lunch. It has been months since I had it off the rack and out. Have been having too much fun with my other ebikes. :)

Amazing things:

1) Tires at 20 psi (pretty good considering how long they sat)

2) Batteries at 4.15/cell (again, amazing)

3) This 63 pound ebike is LIGHT. I guess I have been recalibrated by the Borg at over 100 pounds. This feels like a lightweight now!

SOME of the vet-wrap tape is failing, while most of it is fine. The stuff that is going bad is losing grip and getting oily. The good stuff seems just fine. I thought it was all 3M but perhaps some aftermarket snuck in there. Some if it was lower in cost but claimed to be 3M, perhaps it was just counterfeit. Probably would not matter for short term use, but in longer term use it doesn't behave the same.

Anyway, the motor is really smooth, the control is precise, and the acceleration is .. not bad but nothing like the Cromotor on the Borg. :)

My battery protocol disconnects the batteries from all drains while leaving them paralleled. This seems to work quite well. Air-gapped with SB-50 connectors is very low drain. :)

This bike also pedals so easily .. compared to the Borg. Those big fat moped tires are hard to pedal!
 
Screeching Brakes

I forgot to mention the screeching brakes on this bike. The rear brake has always had some screeching problems, and on this trip I used it a lot to see if it would improve. It changed significantly from a loud midrange howl to a higher pitch screech which is an improvement. These are high end Shimano XTR with supposedly wonderful aftermarket pads.

I suppose I'll have to work on them.

It is so nice to have quiet brakes.

The Hayes disc in the front have been quiet but they started to make some noise, apparently the noise from the rear was inspiring to the front. :)
 
Three Bears on the Mountain Ebike

It has been a few days since I rode the ebike since I have been testing an electric Ford Focus, and the weather has been perfect for ebike riding. :) So I needed a fix today, and I pulled out this Novara and took it for a run around the 3 Bears Loop.

The batteries were down about 20% from just sitting, possibly clear from November. They were still nicely balanced, but I gave them a balance charge with the Cellpro.

This bike has an 18S Lipo 10AH pack on it, and the loop is about 23 miles inclusive from my house. So I was watching for less than 0.5 amp hours per mile to make the trip. Some time back I was having a problem with this Cycle Analyst, and the readings were all over the map on current at times. Justin recommended a bypass capacitor be added which I did, and since then the readings shifted considerably but I have not recalibrated the CA.

So, according to the amp hour reading I was going to run out of juice, but according to the voltage it didn't look nearly as bad. So I took it easy and pedaled more, and got home with about 68 volts on the pack, far above the 63 or so volt cutoff. But the integrated current reading is almost 12 amp hours, and the pack is only rated for 10, so I had some range anxiety. However the voltage looked fine so I didn't worry about it much.

Now that I'm recharging with the Cellpro I can see what was actually used. On the first bank it indicated 6.008 amp hours put back in. So the shunt value is off nearly by a factor of 2.
 
And then, to top it all off, I left the battery connected too long at low charge state and the drain from the controller killed it, so this bike has been sitting with no batteries and a flat tire for the last year. Time for a makeover.

I was looking at the 16AH 6S Multistars. Hmmm. Three of those would make a nice easy to manage pack for this bike, 18S 75V 16AH. It was 10AH before. They are reportedly good to 2.5C so 40A which is just about right for the 9C class of hubmotor.

I think I'll try one of Em3ev's triangle bags on it for the batteries, to clean up the look. One goal is to make it more bicycle like, my Borg is already off the scale in the other direction.

It would be good to set up a CAV3 for torque throttle on it, or perhaps try a different controller. Adaptto sounds like fun but pricey and would lower the top speed a bit. This bike has a torque wind 9C so it needs voltage to work, and with only 18S there isn't a lot to spare. Sabvoton doesn't have anything at this level, their smaller controller is too large and heavy for this bike.

It might be fun to try a different hubmotor, maybe one that takes cassettes? But his JRH wheel and Methods 9C are really excellent, probably should leave well enough alone there.

What other controllers would be interesting to try? I would like to have a smooth torque throttle. Don't need sine waves really, though it might be interesting if the speed loss wasn't too bad. The CAv3 torque throttle is okay, but not as nice as I've become accustomed to on the CroBorg's Sabvoton.

Should setup regen on this bike, it is really useful for part of my commute. This would be a better rig for the ridge route perhaps than the 'Borg. Partially dirt/gravel roads.

Not sure where to take this one next. Any suggestions?
 
Time to revive this ebike. Going to try a thick Slime tube in the rear wheel, some new Turnigy batteries and get this bike running. Then perhaps we'll try a dual-drive (AWD) setup on it soon. :)

Progress update:

Had a hard time finding the micro hole in the tube, after doing so I found the tiny steel wire that had penetrated tire and tube, it appears to be a wire from a steel belted tire. The new thick slime tube would have handled that one.

It is back together now, so the next step is new batteries.
 
Installed 18S 10AH from the leftover Turnigy packs. They are still in good shape. Took it out for a test spin, the power is set pretty low, but it seems to be working. There was a problem with the CA not integrating current accurately last time the bike was used, I still see the 12AH value in there that can't be right since the pack was only 10AH and was only about half dead. Have to investigate that.

This bike sure feels light compared to the Borg!

Edit - almost forgot - I cleaned the rims a bit, sanded them lightly, it feels like there is brake material on the aluminum. But the screeching rear braking went silent. No regen on this setup, need to work on that.
 
So here we have a rear wheel drive 9C 2810 motor, but I'd like more traction and more hill climbing capability, so I'm thinking about adding a front BMC V4TT. Run them both with Lyen 12 FET controllers from the 18S 66V pack, later upgrading that to Multistar for 16AH or 20AH.

The one tricky thing is to distribute the power between the motors, so I'm thinking about starting with a left thumb throttle for the front motor, and then make a little AWD power management box to control the throttle inputs of both controllers to get the desired ratio of power front to rear using a single throttle input.

Research is always useful. Here's some of the great Dual-Drive threads that I've been re-reading:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=36959 Teklektik's 2WD Yuba Mundo

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=33429 2WD FAQ

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=12356 Methods 20KW Dual 9C



Comments, suggestions?
 
Upgrade Challenges

There are several challenges in this upgrade:
  • Driving both controllers with one throttle and one battery, avoiding ground loop and differential voltage problems
  • Balancing Power between rear Direct Drive and front Gearmotor with proper ratio
  • (and what is the proper ratio?)
  • Preserving the Gearmotor Clutch and Gears
  • Torque arms for front motor on suspension forks
  • High voltage on Gearmotor (75V hot off the charger)
 
FWIW, on CrazyBike2's 2WD, I've found that having the direct control over each motor with separate throttles has been necessary in a few cases (weather/rain, traffic, "invisible" sand in a curved road "corner", etc)

Most of the time I only need teh front motor for acceleration from a complete stop, and most of the way up to 20MPH I can let it off competely and only use the rear after that, but there are moments I need *just* that one if the rear washes out, so if I didn't have separate control, I would have lost control at least once of those few times, and would probably have kept control by cutting all power most of the others, but some of those times I would have risked being run over by other traffic that didn't have any better control of their own vehicles (or weren't paying attention) from teh same conditions that forced me into action.


Power balance...except for a little experimentation when I first set it up, I don't monitor power between the two so I'm not sure now what it's balance point is, except that I just "know" when I'm using each as it needs to for each moment I'm doing it, after the tiem I've been using it as 2WD (lost track but I guess that's around a year or so total? hard to remember cuz of interruptions due to the loss of the rear motor wheel for a while due to spoke problems and then hall and then spoke and rim; been fine for most of the last year-ish?)




I suspect that the power balance between the proposed motors will also not be linear as you go up from zero to full throttle, so you might have to have your circuit deal with that, too.





There are also times I would like to separate my ebraking (regen) for each wheel, but presently they're combined into one lever, with mechanical brakes totally separate from each other and the regen.

I also have the brake *lights* on a separate lever, though presently those are with the rear m-brake, because sometimes I just want to trigger the lights to warn someone behind me of my presence or my slower speed (hardly ever needed, but really helpful when it is).


Ideally I'd make little switches along the front edge of the levers that in their first of two positions would activate teh brake lights, and then pressed harder activate the regen braking, and then pressed harder begins mechanical braking.




On the SB Cruiser trike, whcih presently has 2WD (rear wheels), I still use separate throttles, and separate brake levers, etc. But it's a totally different reasoning and workability for it than a bike, so stuff on it probably doesn't apply here.
 
Thanks for your comments Amber. You have a very rich set of options and individual controls.

Total manual control is nice, I will test that first.

Eventually though I'd like something like a modern AWD SUV where it handled power splitting and traction control automatically. Put more power to the rear, and detect the front or rear slipping and back off power to that wheel. A little black box that hooks to the one throttle and both motor controllers.
 
I was just rereading Justin's thread about torque vs current for the 9C and BMC. Quite interesting. Both produce about 70 N-M before hitting the knee of torque vs current and becoming less efficient. Even at this level of torque they heat up rather quickly so cannot do it for long. The gearmotor heats less but both take about the same time to overheat due to differences in thermal paths and mass.

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14494

I would really like to measure motor current and use that for control, as well as limit the value to a safe one. Unfortunately the sensors are not small or cheap, so it would take considerable space and about $80-100 for the four required to monitor two phases of two motors.

I wonder how well the phase current can be calculated, knowing the power and the motor speed which gives the back EMF, and the resistance.
 
Alan B said:
Eventually though I'd like something like a modern AWD SUV where it handled power splitting and traction control automatically. Put more power to the rear, and detect the front or rear slipping and back off power to that wheel. A little black box that hooks to the one throttle and both motor controllers.
That'd be nice; if it were available I'd be interested in testing such a system...but I would personally want an override of some sort that would instantly let me take over in case I could feel it doing something "wrong" for the situation at hand. :)

I have a distrust of automated systems in realtime control of things like this, mostly after having followed the various aviation-related automated system failures as the industry has matured. (though to be fair at least some of those were caused by poor human training or interpretation....)

No system is perfect, human-controlled ones least of all...but it makes me "feel better" to have the ability to make the final call of control while riding. :)
 
The way I'm thinking of building this adapter, it would plug between the CAv3 and the two motor controllers, so it could always be unplugged and then you could plug into either controller and get back to "manual" control. There would also be mode selections for F/R/AWD at least and maybe the strength of the front drive proportion or something along those lines. It would be pretty easy to leave the front throttle hooked up with a disconnect plug or switch so it could be reconfigured back to full manual AWD.

I'm looking into getting different forks. I don't think these alloy suspension forks are very suitable for front drive.
 
What I'm thinking of/expecting is probably totally different from what you want to do...but:

The catch with having to unplug it to bypass it is there coudl be a situation in which you can feel it reacting the wrong way when you "know" what needs to happen to avoid a problem, and you need an instant override that you can use to just squeeze that as you use the brake, or throttle, etc., to override it momentarily just for that instance, and it has to be instantaneous in bypassing, cuz any delay could mean not having time to correct before the problem happens.

I imagine that the bypass button/etc would just cause the MPU in the device (if one is used) to directly pass thru the throttle and brake inputs exactly as they are to the individual controllers, and that if you had one throttle doing both wheels when using it, but did have two throttles on there (normally just duplicates), it would then pass each throttle to a separate motor.

I guess what I mean is that using mine as an example the left throttle normally goes directly to the rear controller/wheel, and left brake handle to rear brake. Right throttle to front wheel, right lever to front brake.

So what the "mixer" would do, is to take either throttle and use it as a control reference, to do it's traction control/etc magic and send appropriate throttle/etc signals to the controllers.

One possible way that instant override would work would be to use the second throttle (whichever is not in use at that moemnt) *in addition to* the throttle presently in use, and then both throttles would directly control the motors, until *both* are released and stay released for a second, and then the "mixer" could take over again once either throttle is reengaged.

Then no additonal controls are needed, no buttons/etc.

A leaf switch or pressure switch along the edge of a thumb throttle, easy to (for me) press and hold when eneded, but ignore when not, would also work, bit it's an extra thing to deal with or to fail.


Does that make any sense?
 
I started my ebike journey with this Novara bike, and it had the controls in the usual USA configuration - right rear, left front. I grew up with that on many bicycles before, but of course had to adapt to motorcycle setups for many years and miles with right front, left clutch, right toe rear brake. The other day when I test drove the Zero electric motorcycles I had to adapt to right front, left nothing and of course right footbrake. It felt weird for a couple of seconds and then mostly normal, with brief moments of confusion that became less and less frequent as the ride progressed.

At any rate, my ebikes are USA bike standard, right rear, left front.

I'm thinking for this AWD ebike that I will keep the right rear, left front brake setup, that's hard to change with the hydraulic front and cable rear brake. I spent quite a bit for quality on both those items. Unfortunately neither have switches, I may want to add magnetic switching to them later.

I mention this because we don't want to confuse left/right, so I will try to avoid using that terminology without clarification in this discussion.

Throttle Splitter

The most convenient physical implementation of this "throttle splitter" is to connect to both controllers via the CA connectors, and then provide a third output for the real CAv3 (using an external shunt that reads battery current before both controllers, so the total battery current):

CA connector pinout (one for each motor controller, plus one for the actual CA)
Pin 1: Red = Battery +75V
Pin 2: Black = Ground
Pin 3: Blue = Shunt Negative
Pin 4: White = Shunt Positive
Pin 5: Yellow = Motor Hall Sensor
Pin 6: Green = Throttle

That provides almost everything needed, but it doesn't provide the 5V power, which can be had from the throttle connector:

Throttle Connector (one for each controller)
Pin 1: Red = 5V
Pin 2: Black = Gnd
Pin 3: Green = Throttle

And if motor temperatures are wanted:

Thermistor (one for each motor)
Pin 1: Black = Gnd
Pin 2: Yellow = NTC

The tricky part is to keep the controllers isolated and don't connect grounds (or anything) between them in the splitter. If that happens it creates a ground loop, and it can cause very high battery current surges to try and flow through the mixer, which not only confuses the throttle inputs but could destroy the mixer and/or the controllers low level inputs. Circuitry in the mixer must be designed to keep the two controller inputs and outputs separated, and handle surges and variations in ground voltages. I know how to do that.

I don't like the normal "direct PWM" throttles on the Infineon controllers, they are okay on a very low powered ebikes but become very jerky as the power is increased. A torque throttle is better, but requires accurate motor current knowledge which is more difficult, but an excellent compromise is a power throttle. In our case we have battery voltage and current for each controller, so we can do a power throttle, or the slightly simpler battery current throttle which is almost the same and even a bit easier. So you decide what maximum battery current is for each motor at the nominal battery voltage, and that becomes 100% for that motor.

In the software we read the one main throttle and map the throttle input voltage to 0-100%, with appropriate detection for a stuck throttle.

In the software we make two control loops, one for each motor. In each loop we measure the battery current, compute the percentage for that motor based on the max for that motor, and that is the % power that motor is running at. This is compared with the power level requested by the main throttle and the difference is the error. This is used to increase or decrease the throttle output value for that motor, making a closed loop control for each motor. A pid or similar loop can be used here, or fuzzy logic.

This is somewhat simplified, but from this simple beginning we can add other features to get where we want to be. We can read some input switches or pots to select front wheel drive, rear wheel drive, or all wheel drive, combine some power level settings, and vary the proportion of power to each motor. Then these factors are used to scale the power requests to each loop.

We can detect the front is slipping if front speed is greater than the rear (once they are properly scaled as the pulse rates are different). If the front is slipping we can reduce the front power until it stops slipping. Rate of change and power can also be used to detect slippage.

Detecting a slip on the rear is a bit harder, we could do that by looking at the rate of change and the power drop, or we could decide that the rear slipping is up to the operator to take care of and not put controller software in for that. Then if the operator wants to spin the rear wheel he can.

If the control switches are mounted conveniently they could be activated while driving. But what are the circumstances where one would want to do this during an emergency? The splitter can handle the front wheel slipping better than the rider (earlier detection and quicker response). A rear wheel slip is pretty easy to handle, by reduce the throttle, and something the operator may not want automation for.

One could still have a second throttle input, and a software protocol defined for what the mixer should do if this input suddenly comes off of zero. You just have to decide how you want the mixer to respond to the additional input and put the appropriate code into the program.

I know an automotive controls engineer, I'll have to ask him how they handle these cases at some point. I know they do a lot of testing on ice and slippery surfaces to make sure they have the algorithms right, but they never let the driver decide. So they have to handle all the cases.

My primary concern is to not allow the front to spin. That is difficult to deal with and can quickly result in a loss of bicycle balance. Rear spins are much easier to compensate for and something that most riders have experience with. So to start with I'd include front wheel anti-slip code but not rear wheel anti-slip. This build doesn't have enough power to slip the rear wheel in very many circumstances. But it might be interesting to add that capability later.
 
It would be easy enough to do AWD from the rear throttle and FWD override from the front throttle, if the rear slips just release that throttle and use the front throttle to send power to the front. The throttle input only takes one ADC pin, there should be plenty left though I haven't done a pin selection layout yet.

... Thinking about Pins and Functions ...


Pin Requirements

1d rear motor speed
1d rear wheel speed (for gearmotor only)
1d comms
4d control mode switches (2) three position toggles
2d i2c interface
i2c 4ch adc main throttle in, differential rear current sense, rear motor temp
i2c dac rear throttle out

1d front motor speed
1d front wheel speed (for gearmotor only)
1d comms
2d i2c interface
i2c front throttle in, differential front current sense, front motor temp
i2c dac front throttle out
i2c LCD display


Actually using the 4 channel i2c ADC there are enough pins for a throttle, a differential current measurement and a motor temperature. This is nice because the i2c ADC is a real 12/16 bits, and it has differential and programmable gain which will come in handy for the current sensor. The micro's ADC has some of these features but is not as good. Using i2c also minimizes micro pins and allow the use of a DAC which is much faster than filtered PWM and has fine resolution. An i2c display can also be used, or there are enough pins for different display types, and a rotary encoder or pushbuttons for selecting more detailed options.
 
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