Definitive Tests on the Heating and Cooling of Hub Motors

Yeah. Well I'm not sure if it makes sense even though the guys research said it was.. because yes covering it up decreases loss, but covering it up also reduces thermal bridge to copper, so now all of a sudden you could be decreasing overall system efficiency.. Regardless, this topic probably accounts for <0.1% efficiency hit so maybe should stop talking about it
 
Interesting read hillz, a little though tough as I am not an engineer. Guess this will make for a slow read with plenty of look up of words, definitions, and terms. Hopefully I will manage to understand the paper even with the lack of engineering background.
 
A very heavy layer of the red urethane on the windings either side of the stator could be the go. Keep spraying coats from the sides until it is filled. This would keep the ferrofluid or any other fluid out of the windings.
 
Sorry for the radio silence! We actually stripped and rebuilt the two prototype bikes with the sinks fitted into road configs for some real world testing, and entered them in the TT1500 Moto Class over the weekend to see if i could put my money where my mouth is and prove them in a practical setting.

The two bikes with the V1 and V2 sinks fitted, took out #1 and #2 positions, with 40 second between them and the rest of the field because we were able to run full power (15-18Kw Batt) for the duration of the race (12km of twisty Kart/Supermoto track)

Absolutely chuffed with the weekend and it was great to meet a heap of ES members and put faces to names, and test out the designs in the crucible that saw Jay Hyena turn one of his motors to slag with FF alone (sorry jay) and our temps were hovering around 100-105C of a 140C temp limit at 3X the Watts

VTy4LzC.jpg


Thanks to Bill Collison for the amazing pics
https://www.flickr.com/photos/billcollison/sets/72157669317159853
 
It was bloody good fun. Lets not wait until next year Sketchy.

There is a couple of points I want to make about some premature departures from science above:
1) Ferrofluid is still vastly superior to the mess that using transmission fluid was five years ago. There is no good reason not to use ferrofluid.
2) Ferrofluid moves the stator heat path directly to the magnets. Back in may during a PM session with Sketch I jokingly proposed using the same radial commercial heatsinks that AFT use on their mid drives and made a concept of a 3d printed alumide fin. It was very cost prohibitive when uploaded to Shapeways. Sketch did follow up with using standard aluminium fins applied radially to the hub and it was useful to see what this does first hand on the weekend at the racetrack. The magnets are going to be so much better off when forcefeeding 3to5kw motors bursts in the double-to-triple range on the racetrack. I have subsequently bought a few standard audiophile heatsinks and will bend a few up for using on race motors. Wouldn't bother for motors used below 6kW.

Ironic that the audio industry is bringing us a lot of cool toys here...
 
You know we are all ready to buy your heat sink protype.....bring it on my brother!

Looking forward to these being available and with a QS 205 3.5T and a Max E I'll put them to the full test!

Tom

sketchism said:
Sorry for the radio silence! We actually stripped and rebuilt the two prototype bikes with the sinks fitted into road configs for some real world testing, and entered them in the TT1500 Moto Class over the weekend to see if i could put my money where my mouth is and prove them in a practical setting.

The two bikes with the V1 and V2 sinks fitted, took out #1 and #2 positions, with 40 second between them and the rest of the field because we were able to run full power (15-18Kw Batt) for the duration of the race (12km of twisty Kart/Supermoto track)

Absolutely chuffed with the weekend and it was great to meet a heap of ES members and put faces to names, and test out the designs in the crucible that saw Jay Hyena turn one of his motors to slag (sorry jay) and our temps were hovering around 100-105C of a 140C temp limit.

VTy4LzC.jpg


Thanks to Bill Collison for the amazing pics
https://www.flickr.com/photos/billcollison/sets/72157669317159853
 
quick little update for those following along!

We are still in Beta testing and production but guys like Liveforphysics and Spinningmagnets and a few other well known names in the community have generously agreed to be involved in independent testing, so before i make them publicly available i wanted to have conclusive 3rd party results as well as my own findings.

The final versions are just coming off the production line at the moment, they are going in for drilling and anodising as we speak, hopefully i can give something back to the community that i've learned so much from over the last couple of years and as i mentioned before, they'll be available as inexpensively as possible as soon as they're ready.

If anyone is interested in being a beta tester and posting their results i have about 20 of this first batch available still just shoot me a PM

ptsS84Q.jpg



2pepCJl.jpg
 
ballpark on the price and weight of the hubsinks?

how much will a layer of black paint take away from the cooling effectiveness any beta tester gonna try and paint theirs?
 
Under $40 i would say, it cost me more than this to buy cheap computer heatsinks and epoxy to do the DIY prototypes, my goal is to make these the cheapest and most effective way to do it and just get my development costs back over time.

Good question, today I just received word that the complete heatsink is 385-390G, including the Nyloc or Nordlock (we're testing both) fixings
 
how much will a layer of black paint take away from the cooling effectiveness any beta tester gonna try and paint theirs?

Flat black/matt black would actually better the heat shedding capacity. Search this thread and see why.
 
Allex said:
Late to the party here but would a 10ml FF do better cooling compared to 5ml in a DD 35mm stator motor? Right now I have 5 and thinking to put more.

I saw a diagram of this a few months back. I could guess it was earlier in this thread.
The test evaluated volume of FF, motor drag and heat transfer ability.
The same was done with oil.

Hopefully someone knows more accurately where this data was posted.
The message I remember, was that over a certain amount of FF, the heat transfer capability only increased marginally. While drag started to increase faster.
 
macribs said:
how much will a layer of black paint take away from the cooling effectiveness any beta tester gonna try and paint theirs?

Flat black/matt black would actually better the heat shedding capacity. Search this thread and see why.


yeppers final ones are anodised black for improved emissivity without adding an insulating layer of paint
 
Allex said:
Late to the party here but would a 10ml FF do better cooling compared to 5ml in a DD 35mm stator motor? Right now I have 5 and thinking to put more.

6-7ml was the sweet spot for it.
more had some % better cooling. but startet with more drag and suffering a bit efficiency

i think it depends on the motor bceaucse not all motor/stator combinations had the same gap from stator to magnets.

i started with 7ml and ended with all 10ml of statorade in it.(205 Motor)
works fine so far. a check after 1000km show me that the fluid stay in place and does not look "vaporized".
 
sketchism said:
yeppers final ones are anodised black for improved emissivity without adding an insulating layer of paint
You are throwing wood in to fire with every single post. Every time I think, it is perfect, you add more bonuses on top. Just take my money already, before I get Heart Stroke. :D
Keep up the excellent work!
 
I think there "might" be some small benefit to potting the stator edge about an inch or so (two centimeters?). To smooth the gaps between each stator-tooth. Probably a lot of effort for a small benefit, but I suspect it would reduce the no-load friction, while still retaining the heat transfer of the FF. Plus "possibly" reducing the volume of FF that is needed to fill the magnetic air-gap...
 
Thats true Ron.
What i (think) I saw at the racetrack with Sketch last week was a hot spot on the motor case outside the magnet ring between the flanges. But the side walls were quite a bit cooler. Was that your thoughts sketch?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Very Exciting work all!

I am going to get a V3.0 CA in the near future, hope to join in as a test mule for the heat sinks when we start going for the 7 - 10Kw range.

Is there any specific recommendation of how much Statorade to use for a V2 Cro-Motor (Hubzilla)?
 
sketchism said:
I'm doing some testing on these hub heatsinks and ill be able to post some meaningful conclusive results shortly, but so far adding a heatsink/radiator been amazingly effective, in ride tests on the prototypes we've been seeing up to 70-80% improvement in thermal handling & even greater shedding at higher temps due to a bigger Delta T and high thermal diffusivity when attached with thermal paste/epoxy, when they're ready ill have some excess for cost soon in 15 and 30mm widths.

I have the magnet ring flange clearance for the MXUS, Leaf 1500w, 3540, and QS205 i'm always open to collecting more data if anyone's doesn't have at least 15mm of flat between the flanges let me know

While i don’t have much experience in thermal analysis, the law of conservation of energy dictates that the heat generated by the heat source must be equal to the heat dissipated by the heatsink to remain neutral under steady state conditions, so while we can’t dissipate all of the excess heat from running a hub motor at 14-20kw peaks and treating them like a room heater, we can do our best to improve the thermal path from stator to the outside air especially during varying loads to bring the mean temp down as much and as quickly as possible.

In my prototype testing with 4X smaller sinks around the hub, each one had 69 fins, with a length of 30mm and width of 20mm & 1mm fin thickness (it varies form bottom to top but 1mm is the mean) and a total length per sink of 145mm *4 Sinks which gives us a fin surface area of 1300 mm^2 times a total of 264 fins
They’re made of aluminium which has a general thermal conductivity of 205 W/m*c and glued on to the ring with Arctic Silver epoxy with approx the same conductivity, we’ll use a figure of 195 to allow for an imperfect thermal connection.
At 100 DegC hub temp and 21DegC outside we get an alpha T, temperature difference of 78 DegC
The convective heat transfer coefficient of air is HTC = 10.45 - v + 10 v1/2 (2)
Where v = the relative speed of the object through the air (m/s)
(50kph is 13.8889m/s) and we’ll have turbulent flow so the approx HTC across a wider range of speeds is about 20 W/m2*c
Using the formula for convection Q= (K*Ab*nΛT) It looks like the heatsinks, at around 50kph cruising speed with the hub at 100c on a 20 degree day, will be shedding an additional 500-600 Watts which is really quite efficient for an unpowered addition weighing only 300 grams.

With a thermal conductivity of 0.195 W / (mm C) and Convection coefficient during rotation of 13W /mm2 and and ambient of 20c the final versions could shed up to 1000W of heat at speed.

In real-world testing we achieved an even better result than we projected, reducing the temps on identical rides repeatedly, from 127C to 48C at the same points on the ride under identical conditions, effetively solving any thermal issues even on intense rides, so i thought it would be a good idea to design these and maybe make it a bit easier for everyone else to solve their heat issues permanently.

in short, radiating heatsinks work well,especially adding almost 3sq ft of surface area, so i'm building some better ones

1muk62I.jpg


nq7xfsd.jpg

I remember reading with excitement about CowardlyDucks early ventures with his cooling mods and heatsinks on the hub magnet ring a while back. Glad to see others were thinking along the same lines (flippant as my idea below may have been ;)), had the resources and skills to bring it to fruition, and that it works! :lol: Sketchism, please let us know when these will be ready and how to order them when they are. Very excited about this!

Re: Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor
Postby GmagNeato » Thu Jun 09, 2016 3:37 pm

What about thermally conductive epoxy? And heat sinks that have, or can be given, enough curvature to match the round of the hub, so that there is more natural contact area between the hub surface and actual heatsink backing? And coating the inside of the hub with the right kind of thermal paint should help counter the issue of grit contamination. All of these combined - magnet ring heatsinks, FF, scooped vent holes, and thermal coating inside- would yield great results I would think. Not sure if the thermal coating would somehow interfere with the FF though..
 
GmagNeato said:
I remember reading with excitement about CowardlyDucks early ventures with his cooling mods and heatsinks on the hub magnet ring a while back.
Hey, thanks for the acknowledgement. :D
My epoxied heat-sinks still work well btw. Obviously not as well as the purpose built heat-sink ring will, but still makes a considerable difference.
DSC_3285.jpg


GmagNeato said:
What about thermally conductive epoxy? And heat sinks that have, or can be given, enough curvature to match the round of the hub, so that there is more natural contact area between the hub surface and actual heatsink backing? And coating the inside of the hub with the right kind of thermal paint should help counter the issue of grit contamination. All of these combined - magnet ring heatsinks, FF, scooped vent holes, and thermal coating inside- would yield great results I would think. Not sure if the thermal coating would somehow interfere with the FF though..
I would not recommend air flow through the hub with FF. I tried it and the FF seems to disappear. I would also suggest being careful with any coatings used with FF. The stator varnish (standard red stuff) I used wiped right off the magnet ring when I removed the FF from my hub.
DSC_3258.jpg

DSC_3260.jpg


See here for the full details.

Cheers
 
Would it be totally out of line to hope for mk II overclock edition that embeds heat pipes as well?
 
macribs said:
Would it be totally out of line to hope for mk II overclock edition that embeds heat pipes as well?


haha i wish we could 'like' posts in the forum

I actually had a few versions sketched up with the heat pipes since you suggested it when we were chatting a couple of months ago, the biggest obstacle was having to make them in two larger halves rather than the 6 pieces and having to fit them before lacing, and manufacturing cost might blow out perhaps, but the effectiveness of heat pipes can't be denied, the navy use them on their mobile radars to shed bucketloads of heat in a small volume low weight rugged environment as well as the electro-optics in F16's and fighter planes and loop pipes in space stations, if we could make it viable to produce it'd be the macribs special haha
 
We've seen a few members getting those 205 motors past 15 kw and some even close to 20 kw.
I really wonder what could be achieved with FF, heat sink and heat pipes. Would they take 25 kw without hitting saturation point?
One of the great things with e-bikes is that the load they push are really not that heavy, so peak power would only be possible in short bursts anyway but I would really love to see an e-bike with single DD hub crush a Tesla on the 1/8 mile strip. Or keep up with liter bikes off the line.
 
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