Do electric cars make environmental sense?

Toshi

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an original post by this author on a favorite topic of mine, electric vehicles. the question that this addresses is whether electric cars are actually better for the environment or whether it's half dozen of one, 6 of another when comparing modern gasoline vehicles and battery-electric vehicles such as the Volt or Aptera.

1) http://www.cleanairnet.org/transport/1754/articles-69297_resource_1.pdf is a great paper from the MIT Energy Lab detailing life cycle energy use and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions for various car technologies. here's the money shot, so to speak:

picture1gk6.png


2) from the above one might conclude that hybrids are a superior option to battery-electric vehicles since their energy use and GHG emissions are comparable—with lower uncertainty to boot—and their cost is lower. indeed, i came to this conclusion myself: a Prius might make more environmental sense than a Volt or a Tesla. but before we conclude this let's take a look at the paper's assumptions.

hummervprius300dpi.jpg


3) what assumptions underlie the above conclusion, that hybrids have equivalent energy and GHG usage and lower cost than battery-electric vehicles?

the first assumption is of 5.1 cent/kWh offpeak electricity (page 2-12 in the paper). this is more expensive than i currently pay in seattle, 3.76 cents/kWh, but this isn't a big deal. the second assumption is of a mix of 52% coal, 28% natural gas, 10% nuclear, 9% renewables, and 1% petroleum in the generation of this electricity (page 2-11). this is a big deal, and i'll discuss it later. the third assumption is of a conventional vehicle design for electric cars, albeit with a reduced weight and a Cd of 0.22, with tank-to-wheels efficiency of about 60% (table 3.4, page 3-24). the final assumption is of battery technology essentially equivalent to lithium-ion.

from the above we see that electric cars are really efficient from the point that electricity is supplied to the battery onwards through driving the thing. the electric car falls on its face due to inefficiency in the areas of electrical production and distribution. again, note the 52% coal in the power generation mix assumption! in the authors words, from page 3-31:

While battery electric propulsion systems require the lowest energy input (as electricity) to the vehicle, even with optimistic assumptions about future battery technology, when allowance is made for the efficiency of electricity production and distribution, the total energy input to the electrical system is larger than the gasoline or diesel hybrid (see Chapter 5), and the price is higher, with the battery technology we have considered.

4) do these assumptions and conclusions change based on vehicle type?

the authors make the assumption that the car of the future will be similar to cars of today, just powered by different means. from page 5-2, "we have arbitrarily assumed that the level of amenities, performance, and interior space will remain similar to today’s fleet average car." this isn't necessarily true, however! in particular, the Aptera 2e is a huge departure from the norm:

- it weighs 1800 lbs as opposed to the 3600+ lbs now common in midsize cars
- its CdA (coefficient of drag * frontal area) of 2.11 ft^2 is absolutely tiny compared to a 2004 Prius's figure of 6.24 ft^2 or a Hummer H2's 26.5 ft^2 (! yeah, insane)
- it is designed to use recycled materials, in its interior, for instance, and its carbon shell would be recycled easier, leading to lower energy inputs both in manufacture and eventual disposal
- it is going to average about 96 Watt-hours of electricity usage per mile driven, as compared to 30 Wh/mile that i use on my much smaller, much slower electric bike or about 250 Wh/mile that plug-in Prius conversions tend to use

1122d.jpg


what do these bits of tech-jargon mean in the big picture? designs like the Aptera can reduce the energy requirements of a car by a factor of 3 compared to a Prius, which in turn is already about twice as efficient as most cars out on the road. multiply those together and you have a vehicle that's nearly an order of magnitude more efficient than some of the gas guzzlers on the road today. (do note that the Aptera design is powertrain agnostic, and indeed might work very well with a catalyzed, small gasoline or diesel engine, not just with a battery pack and electric motor. it'll be offered as an electric only at first, however.)

5) do these assumptions and conclusions change based on region?

NPR published a nice interactive map of the US power grid here: http://www.npr.org/news/graphics/2009/apr/electric-grid/ . also on this map is a summary of state by state electrical power generation. recall from the MIT Energy Lab paper that the greatest inefficiencies with battery-electric vehicles lies not in the vehicles or batteries themselves but rather in power generation and distribution. local, renewable energy is a solution to this problem.

picture2hxn.png


a few interesting states:

nationwide assumptions from the MIT Energy Lab study discussed above:
52% coal
28% natural gas
10% nuclear
9% renewables
1% petroleum

washington
71% hydro(electric)
10% coal
8% gas
8% nuclear

california
47% gas
20% hydro
18% nuclear
7% geothermal

texas
49% gas
37% coal
10% nuclear

west virginia
98% coal
2% hydro

new york
29% nuclear
22% gas
17% hydro
16% oil

vermont
71% nuclear
21% hydro
7% biomass

as you can see the states are all over the map! at one end you have states such as vermont (99% renewable) and washington (79% renewable with an option for individuals like myself to buy credits for 100% renewable), and at the other you have states such as west virginia (2% renewable) and texas (10% renewable).

6) Cliffs Notes, or what does this all mean?

from parts 1 and 2 we see that a rigorous study demonstrates that hybrids and battery-electric vehicles are roughly comparable in terms of lifecycle energy use and greenhouse gas emissions. from parts 3 and 4 we see that radical designs such as the Aptera can reduce energy use by about 60% compared even to a Prius, which is in turn much more efficient than your garden variety car. finally, from part 6 we see that some states have very low rates of renewable power generation while others are very high even today.

in conclusion: whether or not driving an electric car benefits the environment depends on several factors. the first is whether you choose an efficient vehicle—an Aptera 2e instead of an electric Hummer H2, for instance—and the second is where you choose to live. if you live in west virginia chances are that driving a Prius would be a better proposition than stoking your state's coal-fired powerplants all the brighter. if you live in vermont or washington state, on the other hand, going electric might truly be a green proposition indeed.
 
Not when they require maintaining the same scale infrastructure as we have. That turns citiies into paved wastelands.
You're still going to need a twelve lane bridge to move the same number of people per hour as could cross riding bicycles in only two lanes.
Cars don't make sense on many levels.
 
cars make sense when they are the dominant class.

it is totally mentally jarring to realize how much people's ego is their vehicle.

and mobility is at the expense of the planet and the future generations.

even though it is clear from his document that CNG hybrids are the most efficient, and can easily work in something as convenient as the Aptera, nobody ever talks about CNG. they talk about the grid, but never about the high pressure natural gas pipelines which cover the planet!

think rationing, think $10/gallon to be honest with the future generations, within 2 months the entire country could carpool, they did it in WW2 and it could be done again. but cars are the ruling class. 1st step is all cars drive bicycle speed, the law would read you must pick up a ridesharer, and get extra gas rations for every rideshare unit.

you know its comin.
 
I have done about 150 miles on my electric bike averaging 12 watt hours per mile. My car does around 60 miles per gallon; I do about 5000 miles per year in it. The bike battery is charged by solar panels on my roof. Soooooooo Forget electric cars. Use a bike. Recharge with solar panels. When you need a car use one that does 60mpg on diesel (algae biodiesel? - haven't cracked that one yet! :D )
 
If an electric car means you drive around in circles stupidly less, then yes they make sense. The apparent low cost, and endless range of ice leads to a lot of 2 gallon trips for 1 gallon of milk or a loaf of bread. Same thing applies to bikes. You tend to actually plan your day, which helps a lot more than anything for using less resources.
 
I understand both (or all three) sides to the argument. Nickel mining for NiMH batteries in the Prius is horribly bad for the environment near the mine (as one issue rarely mentioned) In Home Power magazine recently, a retiree purchased a solar PV system large enough to run the home, and ALSO charge up the electric car he drove to the market. Of course his range could be short, and he still had a gasoline car for rare long trips. We must also add in the environmental cost of the energy and the mining of materials to make the PV panels....

Gasoline will get expensive again, hybrids and EV's 'in their current form' are a stepping stone to the next thing. Solar PV will improve and get cheaper. The major shift will be when people move closer to their job (or get a job closer to home) and ride a bike (E-Bike?) most of the time.

Any forum about bikes or E-bikes are generally of an environmentally-friendly bent. This means they usually lean towards anti-nuke, but listen for just a minute.

Where-ever its applicable, we need wind-farms, solar-steam electric, Solar PV, and geothermal ORC (freon-steam), but other countries have continued to develop new types of reactors.

The pebble-bed configuration is inherently safer than the old style. using low-pressure helium as a heat-transfer fluid is exponentially safer than pressurised water. Thorium can't be used as a weapons fuel like Uranium/Plutonium, used fuel can be refreshed on-site instead of buried as waste.

You might say you hate nukes, but the US continues to burn a LOT of coal every day...and we must add a LOT of new capacity from some other means before we can shut any coal plants down.
 
Proposing anything that is seen as punishment for car users is likely to be political suicide.

Proposing sensible incentives for alternative transportation users might slowly turn people's habits around.

Some examples:
I bike daily, but use my car maybe once a week. It is only fair that registration and insurance should be charged for the days where I'm actually risking the insurance company money and the roads. There is already vehicle tracking technology in rental cars. Giving occasional car users the right to use-based insurance and registration should make sense.

When funding alternative transportation the reduction of passenger car traffic should be factored in. For example, here in Edmonton, the building of just a piece of expressway and a few exchanges is costing $400 million, or a $1000/inhabitant. That is more than it would cost to give every resident a free bus pass for 2 years.

Whenever I visit a facility by bike bus or lightrail (be it commercial or government) I'm implicitly paying for the ubitiquis acres of parking lots. A system which fairly makes users pay actual costs could be put in place.

A small condo or house downtown costs dearly here in Edmonton, but in the burbs one can get a McMansion for the same money. Factor in cost of public roads etc in development permits to fairly access public costs instead of having downtown dwellers pay for the infrastructure of the burbs.

Stockholm has done some initiatives, including boosting public transport and adding per-use driving charges ($1,2 or some such).
This has decreased personal automobile traffic with 25% over just a couple of years.

Martin
 
I didn't read the whole thing but there's no way anything compares with battery for short range low speed driving. There also seems to be a huge prejudice against coal.
 
What makes sense is the same thing you do when you go and try to do a Photovoltaic panel installation on your house. Make the house more efficient so the engine driving it does not have to be so big. Same thing can be said with the auto. Dollar for dollar it probably makes more sense to make the cars we have as efficient as possible. Start off with a super light car and the engine size could be cut by a substantial amount. Light enough and you would not need the power steering pump, insulated super good and you can get away with a smaller AC compressor...

Right now they could build cars that weigh half of what they are now and perform the same with a much smaller engine, problem solved.

Deron.
 
with the current efficancy of the power grid, and the emission standards for coal and oil fired power plants, it is possable to have an ICE vehicle that is cleaner than an electric.
but thats the exception, generaly, its going to be some form of hybrid (hydrogen electric? CNG electric?) that is most efficent.

As for our future, I don't see any change untill we have to. as long as gas is cheap, people will keep driving high horsepower, high weight moble livingrooms. I'm guilty as charged on this one. We need $20 a gallon gas, and other factors to shift our national view on what personal transit is or should be.
 
jag said:
I bike daily, but use my car maybe once a week. It is only fair that registration and insurance should be charged for the days where I'm actually risking the insurance company money and the roads. There is already vehicle tracking technology in rental cars. Giving occasional car users the right to use-based insurance and registration should make sense.
this exists. it is called Zipcar.

www.zipcar.com

(i have no car. i pay no annual auto insurance. Zipcar counts as continuous auto insurance, yet i only pay by the hour when i use their cars.)

((i do have a scooter and motorcycle insurance for it, but that's another story and both are much cheaper than their 4-wheeled equivalents.))
 
Toshi said:
jag said:
I bike daily, but use my car maybe once a week. It is only fair that registration and insurance should be charged for the days where I'm actually risking the insurance company money and the roads. There is already vehicle tracking technology in rental cars. Giving occasional car users the right to use-based insurance and registration should make sense.
this exists. it is called Zipcar.

www.zipcar.com

(i have no car. i pay no annual auto insurance. Zipcar counts as continuous auto insurance, yet i only pay by the hour when i use their cars.)

((i do have a scooter and motorcycle insurance for it, but that's another story and both are much cheaper than their 4-wheeled equivalents.))

Unfortunately, zipcar only seems to benefit those who live in sufficiently population dense areas that have zip cars, so it's not as "available" as a car is to the majority of the mostly suburban population.

(They don't have any in shoreline. *sniffles* *sniffles*)

But, yes, I *definitely* think there should be insurance costs that's more commensurate to the amount of insurance risk you impose. The more you drive, the likelier you're going to be a cause of an accident and it would also be an additional incentive to drive less and use other means of transport more. As your mileage approaches zero, your cost should approach the overhead cost of just having your account and servicing it, and these weak programs that are in place now in a few states are not economically ideal if we didn't have the archaic regulations that the US retains.
 
swbluto said:
Unfortunately, zipcar only seems to benefit those who live in sufficiently population dense areas that have zip cars, so it's not as "available" as a car is to the majority of the mostly suburban population.

(They don't have any in shoreline. *sniffles* *sniffles*)
no one is forcing you to live in shoreline. Zipcar availability is a good proxy for how cool a neighborhood is, anyway ;)
 
The answer to this is to put all the fixed costs of motoring onto fuel. In the UK we have "Road Tax" an annual fee that is now variable according to how many grams/kilometer emissions your car has. Highly efficient cars like my wife's pay no annual road tax. A normal car pays £200-£300 per year and SUVs pay even more. Insurance is the other fixed cost. I suggest that the average insurance cost (for an averagely careful driver) should be transfered to the fuel tax. There is a big problem in the UK: about one-third of drivers are driving without statutory insurance (called "Third Party"); if you have a collision with one of these "people", you are not necessarily covered for repairs. If the cost of average insurance were collected with fuel duty, this would not occur. If you are a dangerous driver you should have to pay an extra direct fee and if you are safer driver than average, you could get a rebate - the two would cancel out.
If both the road tax and average insurance charge were transferred to fuel duty, there would be no penalty for using your car less frequently - an incentive to be more green.
What do you think? Compared with the astronomical fixed cost of satellite car tracking, it make sense.
 
spinningmagnets said:
Any forum about bikes or E-bikes are generally of an environmentally-friendly bent. This means they usually lean towards anti-nuke, but listen for just a minute....
The pebble-bed configuration is inherently safer than the old style. using low-pressure helium as a heat-transfer fluid is exponentially safer than pressurised water. Thorium can't be used as a weapons fuel like Uranium/Plutonium, used fuel can be refreshed on-site instead of buried as waste.
Most lucid comment on the subject I've heard, really. No waste and fuel that can't be weaponized are big plusses, but the dirty-bomb/contamination issues still linger. Costs will also be an issue... building nukes always seems to cost 10x the proposed amount. But envrionmentally, it sounds better than coal, at this point.

Recent essay: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1869203,00.html
 
As your Recent essay says:
"Energy maven Amory Lovins has calculated that, overall, new nuclear wattage would cost more than twice as much as coal or gas and nearly three times as much as wind--and that calculation was made before nuclear-construction costs exploded."
That, plus the lead time that puts commissioning of new nuclear plant beyond the "energy gap", should make us concentrate on the demand and supply smoothing needed for wind to succeed. That, together with conservation measures and preemptive price hikes on energy to discourage demand are the way to go.
Nobody seems to have noticed, either, that a recession is just what we need to counteract global warming. Limiting output is being achieved by recession in a way that pleas to conservation have not. Has anyone graphed the CO2 output of the planet since last autumn(fall?). Putting your hope in new nuclear power is dreaming that you won't have to cut back on consumption, which you will ultimately have to do because of overpopulation, resource depletion etc. Why not face the music now rather than risk nuclear waste horrors?
2penniesworth.
 
No argument to your reasoning, Paul... following the links to other articles provides more info, especially that investment in nukes is essentially gone.

We probably all can agree that conservation is the best bang for the buck, but changing human behavior is rather challenging. Culture that equates wealth with waste will need to fundementally shift in a direction that is typically anathema to open markets: want less, buy less, use less.

I don't advocate a Maoist austerity; that simply leads to the disaster that China has become... I'd prefer to see innovation like current 'green' tech evolve in the open market to the point where anyone would want to show off with it, the way they would in a Tesla.
 
An electric version of this is the sort of Maoist austerity that we need! :twisted:Monotrace_1999.jpg
... powered by this, perhaps:
 
paultrafalgar said:
An electric version of this is the sort of Maoist austerity that we need! :twisted:View attachment 1
... powered by this, perhaps:

Wow, I'd like to have one of those!

In any event, "Maoist austerity" is (now) a falsehood. I've been to Shenzhen, China several times and let me say that it is a very modernistic city that makes any US city look 3rd world. Buildings of futuristic design you have to see to believe, and the whole city very well landscaped and clean. High Tech abounds within as their version of USA's Silicon Valley. This is where our solar panels and EV's will soon be made in mass (Buffet's BYD is there).

After WWII Japan could build nothing more than those little paper and toothpick umbrellas for fancy cocktail drinks. Now look at them. China is next.
 
Puppyjump said:
After WWII Japan could build nothing more than those little paper and toothpick umbrellas for fancy cocktail drinks. Now look at them. China is next.
Don't bet on it. China and Japan are worlds apart, and will be for generations: In the process of market expansion, China has been poisoning its population and destroying its ecology.

The remnants of the Mao regime opened the channels of capital, but not democracy. The checks and balances that protect workers and the ecology make goods more expensive but safer, balance international trade and distribute capital more evenly across the board.
 
Letter published last week in the weekly NOW magazine in Toronto:

Electric fairyland
Thank you for helping expose the electric car greenwash (NOW, April 16-22). Whether powered by chicken droppings or electricity there is no such thing as a green car.

Electric cars are just as dangerous and polluting to build, and roads and parking will still demand about half of available urban land.

Electric cars are equally or more expensive, and half the population is too poor to afford one or too young, old or disabled to drive one. A far better model for Ontario cities and towns would be walkable neighbourhoods linked by sidewalks, bicycles paths and transit. Car-free urban design makes communities safe, healthy, social and quiet. Imagine if all of Toronto was like Toronto Island. What a wonderful place it would be.

Frank de Jong
Leader, Green Party of Ontario
http://www.gpo.ca/

The Ontario Greens won about eight per cent of the popular vote in the last (2007) elections, up from 2.8 per cent in 2003.

tks
loC
 
Car free urban design would certainly be nice. If it were implemented "city wide", though, I'd imagine it would increase the population density while also bringing down the practical population limit, so cars haven't been entirely bad as related to quality of life.
 
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