EV's - Leasing or Renting Batteries Could be a Good Deal

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I'm not saying it will work out this way but if the cost per mile is less than buying gas and you don't have the upfront or replacement costs it could be like a low interest loan:

http://gas2.org/2009/08/09/making-electric-cars-cheaper-than-gas-cars/#more-3200

Making Electric Cars Cheaper Than Gas Cars

Within 20 years, 86 percent of light-vehicles sold in the U.S. could be electric vehicles; but only by following this prescription.

A U.C. Berkeley study found that Americans want something like their cell phone plan for electric cars. If they don’t have to worry about their batteries, then most Americans would prefer electric cars.

If the customer is always right, then more of the automakers planning electric cars should be looking at battery leasing; with battery swaps available for long-distance travel. Customers would own the car, but pay a per-mile charge to lease the battery.

Here’s how this would make EVs cheaper than gasoline cars:

Electric cars would be cheaper than gas cars

The study proposes that if battery prices are excluded from the upfront cost of the car, (the way ongoing fueling costs now are excluded from the upfront cost of a gasoline car), and with the $7,500 electric vehicle credit, EVs would have lower upfront cost than gas cars.

The monthly cost to rent the battery and pay for charging it could be 13 cents lower per mile than gas cars per mile. Consumers will buy and own their car and subscribe to energy, including the use of the battery, which would be charged by the mile driven.
Winners and losers

To build the infrastructure for battery charging and swapping systems over the next few decades, would cost $320 billion, the study found. (Or to put that another way - there’s $320 billion to be made in building this new infrastructure, bringing $320 billion into the economy. )

Savings to the economy would amount to health-related savings of $205 billion, as less vehicle pollution reduces the incidence of asthma and other respiratory diseases. (Or put another way; health related industry profits would fall as fewer people buy inhalers and so on.) So, there are winners and losers.

Vehicle-related emissions would be reduced 62 percent (from 2005 levels), provided electric vehicles are powered by clean sources of electricity, the study found. Current oil imports of 3.7 million barrels a day from the Middle East and Venezuela would be eliminated.

 

[swbluto]

Yeah, I did notice that people tended to like "lower costs", whether it's upfront or in terms of subscription. Most people seem blind to long-term costs and more readily accept low periodic costs as opposed to a one time high cost at a lower long term cost.

That's why a subscription cost for EVs might make the most sense, if its long term running costs are truly lower than that of a gasoline vehicle. For sure, it would definitely aid in their adoption rates as it'd lower the entry barrier which seems to be the biggest one. It might not "take over", but it'd certainly have a greater mass appeal than buying a single expensive battery with an unknown lifespan upfront.

 

[liveforphysics]

It's interesting they can claim 13cents less per mile than gas cars, when something like my used $6,500 Honda Insight Hybrid only costs me $0.05 per mile in gasoline to begin with...

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Luke,

It's interesting they can claim 13 cents less per mile than gas cars, when something like my used $6,500 Honda Insight Hybrid only costs me $0.05 per mile in gasoline to begin with...

Gas isn't the only additional cost of maintaining a gas powered vehicle as compared to an EV.

I'm not saying its going to happen, but I think that it might be possible to structure this in a way that helps consumers overcome the high initial cost and makes financial sense for consumers and auto companies.

 

[liveforphysics]

Hi Luke,

It's interesting they can claim 13 cents less per mile than gas cars, when something like my used $6,500 Honda Insight Hybrid only costs me $0.05 per mile in gasoline to begin with...

Gas isn't the only additional cost of maintaining a gas powered vehicle as compared to an EV.

I'm not saying its going to happen, but I think that it might be possible to structure this in a way that helps consumers overcome the high initial cost and makes financial sense for consumers and auto companies.

Ehh, I don't know Mitch. If you buy a garbage product, then yeah, you have a lot of maintenance, but EV or ICE won't make a difference in that regard. My Insight is getting close to 150,000miles on the ODO, and it's had 1 tire change, and 12 oil changes. That's it. I bought it cash for $6,500, I drive it to commute, it costs me $0.05 a mile in gas, and it's had a 100% track record of never giving me a problem. It's not like I'm baby'ing it either! I beat on her pretty hard. Even took her to the dyno, and tried AutoX with her. 49.1whp peak, yet it will still do 112mph given a long enough road.

Might be the only photo you will ever see of an Insight on a dyno

 

[Tiberius]

Leasing or renting batteries makes sense for a good reason. It moves the ownership of one big problem to the right place.

When you buy an expensive battery, you have to trust the manufacturer that it will do what it says, store X Whrs and last N cycles. Most of us have been disappointed most of the time. Its all very well having a warranty, but the battery manufacturer isn't going to give a worthwhile one on something that is out of his control.

All that is bypassed with a rental scheme where you exchange the battery for a full one, rather than re-charging it yourself. The battery manufacturer can control the charging and monitor the conditions of use more easily. The consumer isn't gambling on not getting a bad one, or not being able to get a replacement if it fails.

Nick

 

[deronmoped]

Batteries over the years have made it so people do not trust them. People want to be able to abuse their batteries and not have problems with them, that is another reason why having people "not" be responsible for them makes sense. Doing that removes the thought "batteries are not reliable" from peoples heads, it is a good way to solve that problem.

Deron.

 

[swbluto]

49.1whp peak, yet it will still do 112mph given a long enough road.

What does whp mean? How that relate to the nominal peak horsepower?

Just curious, because my Hyundai Accent had about the weakest engine out there and it's advertised as "110 HP" and if yours had a 49.1 "whp" peak, I have a feeling mine was a bit lower, whatever whp means.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi SW,

49.1whp peak, yet it will still do 112mph given a long enough road.

What does whp mean? How that relate to the nominal peak horsepower?

I think Luke means HP measured at the wheels.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Luke,

It's interesting they can claim 13 cents less per mile than gas cars, when something like my used $6,500 Honda Insight Hybrid only costs me $0.05 per mile in gasoline to begin with...

Gas isn't the only additional cost of maintaining a gas powered vehicle as compared to an EV.

Ehh, I don't know Mitch. If you buy a garbage product, then yeah, you have a lot of maintenance, but EV or ICE won't make a difference in that regard. My Insight is getting close to 150,000miles on the ODO, and it's had 1 tire change, and 12 oil changes. That's it. I bought it cash for $6,500, I drive it to commute, it costs me $0.05 a mile in gas, and it's had a 100% track record of never giving me a problem.

I don't think my 1985 Accord with 185k is a "garbage product".

Roughly every 4k miles I have the Motor Oil and Filter Changed. They also check all the belts and hoses. About $100. That's about $4k.

Roughly every 16k miles do the above plus a complete tune-up including valve adjustments and change the anti-freeze. About $200. About $1,000 above the oil changes.

Roughly every 30k miles add new plugs, distributor cap and rotor, and air and fuel filters. About $300. About $600 additional.

Twice I had water pumps replaced and did timing belts at the same time (very little additional labor). I'm not sure of the recommended timing belt interval but I think it might be something like 60k or 90k. I don't remember what this cost but probably over $500 each time.

Probably a few ICE related expenses I'm forgetting.

I could do more myself or be less aggressive with preventative maintenance but thats a total of at least (I'm probably forgetting something) $7k that would not have been necessary with an EV (about 4 cents per mile).

I get about 30mpg which is about $0.10 per mile if gas is at $3. So I'm sure I'm over $0.14 per mile. I might have saved $3k to $5k if I had purchased an Insight for $6,500 along the way. :wink:

I would have thought your Insight would be more like this :
http://www.tamparacing.com/forums/lht-performance/425659-k20a-insight-lht.html

LHT proudly presents the first real K20 Insight we named “K-Sight”

This project has been under wraps for the last 4 months but is now ready and on it’s way to the NOPI Nationals in Atlanta.

The object was to build this and as OEM as possible, Meaning it’s not a stripped out race car. The LHT way !

We have tried to cover every angle possible so make this a real streetcar. It has AC (Factory climate control), Power steering (Factory electric), ABS, S2000 cluster (100% operating), upgraded braking and suspension and a much stiffer chassis.

We stiffened the whole car by welding extra braces, as well as building a complete sub frame, which ties the whole front together, and course the whole thing is aluminum.

The mounts are Honda OEM mounts from various Honda Vehicles so the car is very smooth with no teeth chattering. In fact you can’t feel it idle in the driver seat.

Now for numbers, with very little tuning the car is making over 200whp with a very quiet exhaust and tied with a JDM 6 speed transmission accelerates like a rocket. The car feels very tight and has great feel due the extra bracing and a custom alignment.

For the gas mileage folks, so far with very little tuning the car has averaged 48mpg with about 60% highway and the rest stop and go. This includes the 7 runs on the dyno. I’m confidant it will break 55+mpg once tuned.

Or maybe this (I really like this one):
http://www.redlightracing.org/index.php/the-insight-1g

VW 1.2L TDI Powered Honda Insight

http://www.redlightracing.org/index.php/latest-news

This past Friday we achieved what no one else in the world has as far I know--performed a successful Honda Insight heart transplant. Our Honda Insight is now a functioning Diesel-Electric efficiency monster. It took two weeks of heavy metal thrashing on the project but now she's up and running it feels so nice. I've included a bunch of build photos to give an idea of what went in to the car.

http://www.redlightracing.org/index.php/latest-news/74-insight-1g-completes-transcontinental-journey

I'm pumped to report that the Insight 1G completed a transcontinental journey (approximately 3,000 miles) in the early morning (0130) on Friday 31JUL09 in Anacortes, Washington after leaving Dameron, Maryland on Sunday 26JUL09. The journey was completed without major mechanical difficulty. The most objectionable mechanical bug was a slight coolant leak which leant a faint maple syrup smell to the journey. Other than that it was: fuel, check oil, top off coolant, drive, pee, drive, eat, pee, drive sleep, drive, eat, fuel, etc.

It's a good thing the car has a relatively small 10 gallon tank. With a high of 92mpg [I think they mean 92mpg for the best leg] (average speed approximately 57 mph with one person and 100 pounds of gear) on two legs totaling nearly 1,800 miles it was a physically trying experience watching the fuel gage eke towards empty. The other two legs completed rang in at 72mpg (average speed 55 mph with two people, 100 pounds of gear, and lots of time at idle trouble shooting before beginning the leg through the hill filled PA Turnpike) and 80mpg (average speed 60 mph with one person and 100 pounds of gear driving sub-optimally through mountain passes).

 

[dogman dan]

I gotta get luckier with my used cars. I'm thrilled if I own one two years and can calculate the cost at less than 50 cents a mile. My subaru, which is still a great car I intend to put 300,000 miles on, has needed everything except a transmission in the last 3 years, and has 130,000 on it now. Definitely bought one ridden hard by the previous owner. Nevertheless, it still has been a lot cheaper than a larger 4x4.

 

[swbluto]

Hi SW,

49.1whp peak, yet it will still do 112mph given a long enough road.

What does whp mean? How that relate to the nominal peak horsepower?

I think Luke means HP measured at the wheels.

Thanks. It still seems surprising that the wheel horsepower seems to be a mere fraction of the nominal peak horse power rating of the engine, safely assuming that the insight's nominal horsepower rating is at least as much as the Accent's. What are they measuring at the engine, the amount of gas burned over some defined time period? (Power = Energy/time)

Edit: Ok, just learning more about the car scene. An insight has a nominal 67 horse power rating (Wikipedia says 70), which is a bit lower than 110 hp. I'm guessing the insight was specifically designed as a gas sipper.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi SW,

Thanks. It still seems surprising that the wheel horsepower seems to be a mere fraction of the nominal peak horse power rating of the engine, safely assuming that the insight's nominal horsepower rating is at least as much as the Accent's. What are they measuring at the engine, the amount of gas burned over some defined time period? (Power = Energy/time).

Measuring power at the wheels like Lukes picture or this diagram or the following photo: