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gas price thread

liveforphysics said:
We can agree to disagree that the energy storage is impractical my friend.

Sodium Iron Phosphate batteries work and cycle well with very low electrolyte stresses for long calendar life at high temps.

They don't have anything rare or expensive inside them, we can make costco-sized warehouses of them and keep building them.

The alternative is much less pleasant than a scaled manufacturing challenge to solve.
Yes we will disagree .
Remind me when these batteries are commercial at scale, and what timeline might be expected to produce and install sufficient capacity to provide a continuous national power back up for RE generation.
 
Regarding nuclear, modern breeder reactors and perhaps even meltdown-resistant integral fast reactors are a promising solution to address much of the nuclear waste that has to be stored/buried. That has merit.

But nuclear in general is a highly complex "solution" requiring lots of varied specializations, bureaucracy, and subsidies to function. Solar and wind power can be produced in a highly decentralized manner even at the individual level. Wind is especially advantageous in the fact that it doesn't require specialized and toxic processes to build a device to generate electricity from it.

Thorium reactors and nuclear batteries hold a lot of promise for allowing relatively safe off-grid nuclear, but the biggest problem regarding that is government. One can't so much as experiment with the technology without risk of being thrown in prison, virtually anywhere on Earth.

If anything, the modern utility grid itself, regardless of how the electricity is generated, is more of a liability than an asset. As an engineer in this field, I must say that going off-grid for electricity is looking very attractive as of late, and only moreso as society itself continues to degrade and infrastructure spending continues to be well below what is required for basic maintenance(and private companies can be every bit as wasteful of and inefficient with allocating other peoples' money for a stated purpose as governments).

Get your solar panels, wind turbines, and energy storage batteries while you can. Things are likely going to get scary in this lifetime. Don't count on utilities to be as reliable in the future as they are today, best case scenario.
 
Hillhater said:
Yes we will disagree .
Remind me when these batteries are commercial at scale, and what timeline might be expected to produce and install sufficient capacity to provide a continuous national power back up for RE generation.

CATL initial production happened in 2018.
CATL is gearing up for larger scale production by 2023.

A company named Natron is also beginning large scale production.
https://newatlas.com/energy/natron-sodium-ion-battery-production/

You could do a google search and find more companies and more dates and learn about what you're criticizing before criticizing it. :wink:
 
neptronix said:
Hillhater said:
Yes we will disagree .
Remind me when these batteries are commercial at scale, and what timeline might be expected to produce and install sufficient capacity to provide a continuous national power back up for RE generation.

CATL initial production happened in 2018.
CATL is gearing up for larger scale production by 2023.

A company named Natron is also beginning large scale production.
https://newatlas.com/energy/natron-sodium-ion-battery-production/

You could do a google search and find more companies and more dates and learn about what you're criticizing before criticizing it. :wink:

What makes you think i didnt ?
But obviously you read the results in a different way !...
The assistant to the company’s chairman, Meng Xiangfeng, told an industry conference last week the company had solved some key technical issues and has also addressed a lack of available raw materials for the production of sodium ion batteries.

Meng said: “The company is preparing to establish a raw material supply system for sodium ion batteries. The only major problem left is to increase battery production capacity.”

The company, based in Ningde in Fujian province, added it plans to have a basic supply chain in place by 2023.
That does not sound like commercial production (of any volume) until next year At best. !
And Natron, with their claimed,..... “largest Sodium ion battery production facility in the world”.... from their site would seem to be operating out of a building smaller than my local grocery store ?..so what annual volume ?
So, i repeat...wake me up when these become commercial at a scale that could provide a practical storage system for a RE based National Grid system !
I thought you of all people would have learned to be wary of online claims and promo’s for new battery tech !
 
Hillhater said:
Remind me when these batteries are commercial at scale
They are commercial at scale.
and what timeline might be expected to produce and install sufficient capacity to provide a continuous national power back up for RE generation.
Never. Just as coal cannot provide a continuous national power backup for hydro and gas. Just as natural gas cannot provide a continuous national power back up for nuclear and coal.

However, a combination of these things can. And as time goes on, more and more of that backup will come from BESS.

In the Philippines, a new 2.5GW solar plant combined with a 4GWhr storage facility has just been announced. That's more peak power than a typical coal fired power plant, and it's available at more important times (during peak demand.) Facilities like this, being cheaper and faster than nuclear power plants, and cheaper and cleaner than coal plants, will become the standard for new energy generation.
 
I got you to read what you're criticizing!

I did say commercial production begins next year, but there's been smaller production going back to 2018 like i mentioned.
Of course they do not have a supply chain in place for mass production. Working sodium batteries are incredibly new ( considering the scale of how long battery technologies take to develop )

Claims from one of the mentioned manufacturers does not invalidate the idea that the technology is promising.

So anyway, tell me why it won't work. :mrgreen:
 
JackFlorey said:
Hillhater said:
Remind me when these batteries are commercial at scale
They are commercial at scale.
What scale ?...GWh/yr ?....compared to other battery tech it is tiny !
and what timeline might be expected to produce and install sufficient capacity to provide a continuous national power back up for RE generation.
JackFlorey said:
...... as time goes on, more and more of that backup will come from BESS.
Sure! But as i asked, how long ? And how much ?....have you even considered the scale of what would be required for a National system ?

JackFlorey said:
..In the Philippines, a new 2.5GW solar plant combined with a 4GWhr storage facility has just been announced. That's more peak power than a typical coal fired power plant, and it's available at more important times (during peak demand.) Facilities like this, being cheaper and faster than nuclear power plants, and cheaper and cleaner than coal plants, will become the standard for new energy generation.
Im glad you used the word “peak”,...but its a pity you did not accept its significance !
You know full well that plant will not produce more than 12GWh per day, even if it is distributed by a battery.....
....whilst even a “small” ,1GW, coal plant could generate double that (24GWh), and peaks could be accommodated with a SMALLER battery if necessary.
And,... they would not have to worry about what to do when there was insufficient or no sun !
 
neptronix said:
I got you to read what you're criticizing!

I did say commercial production begins next year, but there's been smaller production going back to 2018 like i mentioned.
Of course they do not have a supply chain in place for mass production. Working sodium batteries are incredibly new ( considering the scale of how long battery technologies take to develop )

Claims from one of the mentioned manufacturers does not invalidate the idea that the technology is promising.

So anyway, tell me why it won't work. :mrgreen:
I had previously read the promos for Sodium ion, that is why i asked the question originally .
I did not say it wont work,...i asked how long it would be before a National scale system would be viable !
..
.”wake me up when these become commercial at a scale that could provide a practical storage system for a RE based National Grid system !”
So, any predictions ?
 
Whilst we are so far off topic i may as well add this regarding the much more established and advanced Lithium storage battery industry..
https://www.kitco.com/news/2022-06-09/How-a-battery-shortage-is-hampering-the-U-S-switch-to-wind-solar-power.html
June 9 (Reuters) - U.S. renewable energy developers have delayed or scrapped several big battery projects meant to store electrical power on the grid in recent months, scuttling plans to replace fossil fuels with wind and solar energy.

At least a dozen storage projects meant to support growing renewable energy supplies have been postponed, canceled or renegotiated as labor and transport bottlenecks, soaring minerals prices, and competition from the electric vehicle industry crimp supply.

One previously unreported dispute over a delayed California storage project has even wound up in court.

The slowdown in utility-scale battery installations threatens the pace of the U.S. transition away from fossil fuels as the Biden administration seeks to decarbonize the grid by 2035. The delays could pose a threat to power reliability in states that already depend heavily on renewable energy like California....
Much more on the site..
 
You always know HH is losing when they post multiple comments. It's so funny how they take everything so personal, and how they refuse to search anything.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/03/26/the-weekend-read-sodium-ion-batteries-go-mainstream/

Hillhater said:
sufficient capacity to provide a continuous national power back up for RE generation.
This report says so:
https://www.rethinkx.com/energy
Here's a summary:
https://www.warpnews.org/warp-news-experts/is-an-energy-system-with-100-solar-and-wind-possible/
There's a bunch of others.

liveforphysics said:
We can agree to disagree that the energy storage is impractical my friend.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12274-018-2139-0

Sodium Iron Phosphate batteries work and cycle well with very low electrolyte stresses for long calendar life at high temps.

They don't have anything rare or expensive inside them, we can make costco-sized warehouses of them and keep building them.
Dude, hell yes. I had heard CATL was starting to sell cars with Sodium-ion batteries and this is great news!

The Toecutter said:
Regarding nuclear, modern breeder reactors and perhaps even meltdown-resistant integral fast reactors are a promising solution to address much of the nuclear waste that has to be stored/buried. That has merit.

But nuclear in general is a highly complex "solution" requiring lots of varied specializations, bureaucracy, and subsidies to function. Solar and wind power can be produced in a highly decentralized manner even at the individual level. Wind is especially advantageous in the fact that it doesn't require specialized and toxic processes to build a device to generate electricity from it.

Thorium reactors and nuclear batteries hold a lot of promise for allowing relatively safe off-grid nuclear, but the biggest problem regarding that is government. One can't so much as experiment with the technology without risk of being thrown in prison, virtually anywhere on Earth.

If anything, the modern utility grid itself, regardless of how the electricity is generated, is more of a liability than an asset. As an engineer in this field, I must say that going off-grid for electricity is looking very attractive as of late, and only moreso as society itself continues to degrade and infrastructure spending continues to be well below what is required for basic maintenance(and private companies can be every bit as wasteful of and inefficient with allocating other peoples' money for a stated purpose as governments).

Get your solar panels, wind turbines, and energy storage batteries while you can. Things are likely going to get scary in this lifetime. Don't count on utilities to be as reliable in the future as they are today, best case scenario.
Thorium has such issues around it because it's really easy to transmute Thorium into plutonium with such reactors, otherwise we've built a small handful and they seem to be working per their scientific models. Typically I'm not too concerned about nuclear proliferation, but with the funny Iran is pulling RIGHT NOW with the international atomic energy commissions their fear has merit.
 
Determined to use less gas. Mowing less often and keeping the blades sharp. Driving only when needed and thinking twice before getting in the drivers seat. Passing on any group bike rides that meetups need to be driven to. I ride to them or pick my own solo workout which is whipping me into shape quicker than normal this season.

Determined to never buy another ICE vehicle unless it is a flip. PV cells going in soon. Heat pump most likely in the near future. For folks on a budget one of these may work in some climates.

$600 -50MPH odd looking scooter on alibaba.
Image-from-iOS-2.jpg
 
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
Thorium has such issues around it because it's really easy to transmute Thorium into plutonium with such reactors, otherwise we've built a small handful and they seem to be working per their scientific models. Typically I'm not too concerned about nuclear proliferation, but with the funny Iran is pulling RIGHT NOW with the international atomic energy commissions their fear has merit.

So? The most dangerous, corrupted, rogue, bloated, and/or reckless governments on Earth already have nuclear weapons: U.S., Israel, U.K., China, and Russia. In fact, the only country on Earth to have murdered cities full of people with these weapons still has thousands of them, enough to wipe out complex life all by itself, and they are wasting yet trillions more dollars upgrading their arsenal under the guise of serving the public while the basic needs of the bottom half(or more) of said pubic go unmet and as the infrastructure degrades from neglect. If those listed nations are allowed to have them, ANYONE should be allowed to, including individual people. Otherwise, no one should. Anyone who ever decides to deploy them deserves death, IMO. Iran is the theocracy it is precisely because of the actions and meddling carried out by the first three countries on that list that ruined Iran for daring to be be a secular democracy and for it adhering to the wishes of its population at the expense of powerful/moneyed interests within those countries, and the first two countries on that list aren't far behind Iran in the progress of imposing their own flavors of theocracies. These weapons are already in the hands of the worst people on Earth, and they're more than willing to use them to maintain their dominance and power if it comes to it(otherwise, why have them?). You and I and everyone else here are merely collateral at best, probably fodder, to these people. Yet your average Joe isn't allowed to experiment with new technology because THEY might be able to make the same weapons, if they ever amass all of the financial resources and a team of scientists/engineers for everything needed to do so?

If terrorism were really the threat it is hyped to be by the "news", someone could easily make a highly-effective and nearly untreatable bioweapon with some human waste, a microscope, some petri dishes, and a few containers of anti-bacterial soap. If they wanted to get more sophisticated, $200 could get them started with the tools to play around with genetic engineering in their garage, basement, or apartment(not much space is needed, less than a drug lab). And if deployed, its origins would likely be completely untraceable. If playing with thorium were legal, it still wouldn't be as accessible as any of that, let alone making plutonium out of it, let alone making a nuclear weapon out of that.

The plutonium bugbear is holding back a possible/partial solution to our energy woes, and one that allows average people to go off-grid. All because a few powerful people fear others having that same unjustifiable power to destroy life on Earth that they do, and who can use the full power and force of the state to enforce their will. It's childish and stupid.

Meanwhile, I just checked the gas station down the block. $4.89/gallon for regular unleaded. Most people were already living paycheck to paycheck before the price increase. That extra $200/month they're paying to get back and forth to work was probably their food budget, which is also rapidly rising in cost. Shortages loom thanks to the consequences of all of the lockdowns, "stimulus"(handouts to the wealthy/corporations disguised as saving the economy), and other government-backed COVID-related nonsense, so food too will keep increasing in cost, and the majority of people can't afford the cost increases(even in the U.S., the land of compulsory wasteful consumption). Just watch and wait. Things are going to get even more interesting soon.

I already get a LOT of hate riding my velos because hateful people can sense I'm not having to pay for fuel. Last week, one Karen in an SUV was following me and screaming at me to get off the road because I'm not paying my share. She then threatened to hit me(one actually did last year, long story) to force me to get off the road. It was amusing. I dared her to get out of the car and talk(I was seriously going to give her advice on how she could save some money and explain what the vehicle was), and she got scared and said she was calling the cops. :lol:

People are losing it, and this shitshow's barely begun. Stock up on non-perishable food, learn how to filter water, and get a cheap solar system going y'all. While there's still time.
 
The experts recommend to walk towards the blast, better to go quick than suffer.
by The Toecutter » Jun 11 2022 2:39pm
People are losing it, and this shitshow's barely begun. Stock up on non-perishable food, learn how to filter water, and get a cheap solar system going y'all. While there's still time.

Energy back up is a real issue looks like we need to make more power than we use to cover the back up issue. Don't think batteries as we know it will solve this.
 
The Toecutter said:
Yet your average Joe isn't allowed to experiment with new technology because THEY might be able to make the same weapons, if they ever amass all of the financial resources and a team of scientists/engineers for everything needed to do so?
Stop right there. You can experiment with this. You can buy thorium off American Elements, and even eBay:
https://www.americanelements.com/thorium-metal-7440-29-1

You're not "allowed" to test a plutonium device, because what it means to have plutonium or test with it. You only get Pu239 from a reactor or a bomb- Thorium and Uranium are naturally occurring, especially in clay soils in the American midwest, which is why all my families houses have those nice radon pumps.

ZeroEm said:
Energy back up is a real issue looks like we need to make more power than we use to cover the back up issue. Don't think batteries as we know it will solve this.
I should have jumped on a GovDeals listing a few weeks ago- 2 pallets of used solar panels down in Kansas for around ~$350. A local Amazon reseller netted me ~10 Solar MPPT charge controllers, the real cheap 20A/30A kinds for 50 cents each, that I coulda strung together into a bodged home cell. Couple that with my state doing amazing on renewable grid, I could genuinely get my energy to over 80% renewable with no change in lifestyle.

Now I just gonna finish up more medical certs, and likely get a job much closer to home. I'm privelidged enough in the US, that I could soon be able to ride or walk everywhere I want to go 90%+ of the time.
 
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
You're not "allowed" to test a plutonium device, because what it means to have plutonium or test with it. You only get Pu239 from a reactor or a bomb- Thorium and Uranium are naturally occurring, especially in clay soils in the American midwest, which is why all my families houses have those nice radon pumps.

https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo...rying-to-build-nuclear-reactor-in-his-kitchen

https://unbelievable-facts.com/2018/12/david-hahn.html

Governments of the world won't let you experiment with nuclear reactors in general, regardless of element used. That is my complaint.

Seriously, a meth lab is less risky when it comes to the potential for unwanted interactions with government.
 
The Toecutter said:
Governments of the world won't let you experiment with nuclear reactors in general, regardless of element used. That is my complaint.

Seriously, a meth lab is less risky when it comes to the potential for unwanted interactions with government.
You forget that Hahn also made an EPA superfund site; Alpha radiation tracks in soil and water and can poison an area. Gamma emitters can only be shielded by serious materials like layers of lead or steel. You've got stories like the Demon Core and Daghlian or Slotin, guys who knew the risks but continued to play with (eventual) atomic bomb parts using screw drivers from automotive toolkits in cowboy boots.

There's a good reason the gubernment doesn't want me screwing with that. I could poison my ground water easily.
 
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
You always know HH is losing when they post multiple comments. It's so funny how they take everything so personal, and how they refuse to search anything.
https://www.pv-magazine.com/2022/03/26/the-weekend-read-sodium-ion-batteries-go-mainstream/
But, ..this is what YOUR “research” reveals
According to WoodMac, Na-ion batteries are expected to replace some of the LFP share in passenger EVs and energy storage, reaching 20GWh by 2030 in the base-case scenario. “
Tell me again how that answers my question about what capacity, and timescale for 100% battery backup for a W&S based national grid ?
And those “Rethink” guys really should practice their motto, or get their stories straight..
It is both physically possible and economically affordable to meet 100% of electricity demand with the combination of solar, wind, and batteries (SWB) by 2030 across the entire continental United States as well as the overwhelming majority of other populated regions of the world...
I will have a dolla on that NOT happening...EVER !
We have a saying down here.....”Tell them they are dreamin’”
 
CONSIDERABLE SHOUTING said:
You forget that Hahn also made an EPA superfund site;

...

There's a good reason the gubernment doesn't want me screwing with that. I could poison my ground water easily.

That reason isn't what you think it is nor is it "good."

The U.S. government lets favored companies make such EPA superfund sites all the time, often without consequence to those responsible, without compensation to those harmed.

Here's an example a few miles from where I live:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=duEMr4VbqbM

Eventually, that fire will reach the radioactive material. This material was the result of making nuclear weapons, which have zero positive use cases for humanity or improving the human condition.

If this same government launches a bunch of nukes and makes everyone on Earth sick and/or dead, I guess everyone could always sue them for just compensation and win in "impartial" courts, right? But at least no one will have made a nuclear reactor at home. That can't be allowed to be a possibility. :lol:
 
The Toecutter said:
That reason isn't what you think it is nor is it "good."
But that doesn't give me the right, especially when again, I could seriously hurt someone else in my area by my actions. Individual or corporation, that shit stays in a lab with protocols that are written in blood for a reason, and it's not hard to seriously experiment with rented lab space. Hell, people build fusors in their homes for nuclear fusion research, but as an avid fan of Styropyro I know how far those guys will go in the name of safety.
 
Hillhater said:
I guess the Millitary realise they need reliiable power 24/7....
The US Army will have a portable nuclear reactor ready by 2024
https://interestingengineering.com/us-army-portable-nuclear-reactor-2024

That is a sad waste of resources and energy. We should have versions supplying entire towns and cities.
 
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