I don't believe the EV press from well known auto makers

Puppyjump

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I unfortunately am under the opinion that you can't ever buy the recent EV cars (maybe not even the GM Volt) shown by the Big 3 nor the European makers either. It's all "greenwashing". Such EVs will continue to run on the fuel of Press Releases for a long time.

Who does not want EV’s in our driveways:
-Legacy Automakers, because they, and their dealer networks do not earn enough revenue by selling cars. A look at how large their service departments are (and our out-of-wallet experience with them) shows what’s at stake revenue-wise because EV’s never need service beyond tire changes. EV’s don’t even need brake jobs due to electronic regenerative braking that does most of the work. Their ordinary friction brake pads and rotors thus last the life of the car (as shown on the Toyota electric Rav4).
The large established car companies depend on their service department, like printer companies depend on sales of ink cartridges. So why did Toyota sell the Rav4 instead of leasing and crushing as GM did with the EV1? It’s a mystery, but I came across a blog that mentioned that a Toyota exec at a public speech mistakenly said that the cars would be sold, and so to save face, Toyota reluctantly sold the Rav4. Buyers, however, now post on blogs that they actually had difficulty in getting the Toyota dealer to sell them an electric Rav4 and that they were highly pressured to instead buy a Gas Toyota or a Prius.
-Oil companies, for obvious reasons. Note they are also major stockholders in auto companies and thus probably have influence over their board of directors.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJXRRKIS9TE&feature=related

Business firms exist to make profits, but profits are going to be reduced if EV’s replace the ICE car. Much of our economy is based on the automobile, and its upkeep. Almost every business is related in some way to the car. What will happen to employment if the need to service a car is practically eliminated?
What happens to Midas, Pepboys, Kragen’s, smog check centers, AMCO, gas stations, Jiffylube, general service repair centers, the manufacturing plants that fabricate repair parts, the UPS people that deliver the parts, the corner deli or Taco Bells frequented by those firm’s workers at lunchtime? What about government agencies that depend on collecting all manner of tax revenue from the above interlinked economy? What about the government revenue collected from gas taxes?
If people understand this scenario, then they will understand why they can’t yet buy an EV from the legacy business infrastructure. Only recently can one sniff the scent of a potential EV from start-up EV manufacturers like Tesla (too costly for mass production partly because they hand-solder a battery pack of 6000 Lithium AA sized cells together in series-parallel groups), Aptera, and even the tiny BugE, etc., because a startup company does not need to address the risk that a service-free vehicle will parasitically affect revenue from other parts of its company. And startups probably are not in business relations with oil companies either. One interesting emerging EV contender is the Chinese and their unstoppable manufacturing base. Google the “Miles EV” and “Thunder Sky” Lithium battery (which can replace the suppressed NiMH battery. Google “95 AH Large Format NiMH battery” to see that a 30 million dollar lawsuit dismantled the Panasonic plant that built these batteries that gave the Toyota Rav4 EV more than 100 miles of highway speed range- 10 years ago).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pDRBRuvct54&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Waqep7f59ho&feature=related

The Chinese don’t have any obligations to any western business or oil cartel (I hope). Although they are importing oil at increasing rates, I think they are taking steps to limit dependency on oil by mass producing EVs. A $4000 Lithium powered highway speed scooter motorcycle just appeared from China: the “XM-3500Li” You can buy it now online. Hopefully they will build viable Large Format LiFePO4 batteries that will eventually find their way into our hands and our converted EVs.
 
i think you give the automakers too much credit. you don't see affordable, safe, full-size, highway-speed electric cars because batteries are still horrendously expensive and finicky. and i wish the best of luck to anyone who would trust a drop-shipped chinese battery-electric scooter for anything more than a hobby piece.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q5pCle3HGzk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRl2godEC5c&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6EP6OsjAAQ&feature=channel_page

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pk0Knqq2lzE&feature=related
 
While there is some truth in what you say, 90% of it is much simpler. Through the late 90's gas prices were getting relatively cheaper every year, so many of us in the USA found it easier and easier to justify buying a bigger and bigger vehicle. More space, more horsepower, more luxury, towing a bigger boat or RV. What's not to love there? We weren't thinking about pollution since that had actually improved since the sixties. The market for Ford was almost all trucks, and the bigger the better. So they made more of what we wanted. Even Toyota trucks got v8's! Even as gas crossed the three dollar a gallon line two years ago, the F350 double cab longbed was still selling well. Only last spring was the rug jerked out on em. I wasn't a bit interested in EV's myself till about one year ago.
 
The biggest reason GM's EV1 became road kill is that it was to perfect :? Why would GM market a car that would hurt their own bottom line in after market parts, at the GM Delco division :roll: A ICE has hundreds of parts that wear out, off all it's just capitallism, where money is king :twisted: even over common sense :? It's not like ICE are going to dissappear overnight, hybird EV's will be needed also!! The EV1 was perfect for the california cities and urban areas where it was introduced 8)

NOW.....after they have slit their own throut, their come asking for money to stop the bleeding :oops: Nothing pisses me off more :evil:

Blessings, Snow Crow
 
snowcrow said:
The biggest reason GM's EV1 became road kill is that it was to perfect :? Why would GM market a car that would hurt their own bottom line in after market parts, at the GM Delco division :roll: A ICE has hundreds of parts that wear out, off all it's just capitallism, where money is king :twisted: even over common sense :? It's not like ICE are going to dissappear overnight, hybird EV's will be needed also!! The EV1 was perfect for the california cities and urban areas where it was introduced 8)

NOW.....after they have slit their own throut, their come asking for money to stop the bleeding :oops: Nothing pisses me off more :evil:

Blessings, Snow Crow
uh, no. the EV1 was very small, had 55 miles of range with lead-acid (75 with nimh) and cost ~$80,000. that's not "perfect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
 
No, but producing a bunch of em would have brought the cost down some. But yeah, the lobbying CARB was cheaper. The last thing the carmakers wanted was for such a reqirement for zero emissions to go nationwide.
 
Toshi said:
uh, no. the EV1 was very small, had 55 miles of range with lead-acid (75 with nimh) and cost ~$80,000. that's not "perfect."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1


Sorry dude, the range was a bit more than that. I found this report following the link that you provided. They report 163 miles range of highway driving. I could live with that.

"No driver of a '97 EV1 would never dream of a drive like this in a lead-acid pack-equipped car. I drove 163.3 miles on one charge! Most of the drive was on fairly level terrain, the only notable exception was the hill on the 60 Freeway traveling west from the 605 freeway. I began the trip at 10:00 pm (outside temperature: 55 degrees) from my home in the Wilshire "Miracle Mile" district of Los Angeles, and drove I-10 west and I-405 as far south as El Toro Rd. near Laguna Hills. At the time I got off the freeway to turn around, I had traveled 65 miles and had only used 5 out of 11 bars on the charge indicator. The range indicator showed 98 miles remaining, for a total of 163 miles (this turned out to be a very accurate indication - I had driven 163.3 miles when I pulled into my garage with no charge bars remaining). When driving my '97 EV1 for maximum range, I keep a close eye on the "power use" gauge, trying to maintain 55-65 mph with no more than 5-6 bars of power use. Occasionally, 7 bars will be required for short distances to maintain safe freeway speeds. I adopted this same technique during this NiMH test run. When I connected my home MagneCharger at the end of this test run at 1:10 am, the charger reported "0% full - 5hrs 25min to fill." I woke up the next morning at 6:30 am, and indeed the charge was complete - only the battery pack fans were running with the charger displaying "full support."
 
Heynow999 said:
Toshi said:
163 miles at a constant 55 mph on a flat road is not a "160 mile range". :lol:

Why not?
that's an absolute best case scenario. that's like saying a corvette can get 50 mpg, if that's its instantaneous mileage in 6th gear at 800 rpm at 25 mph on a flat road with no wind.
 
"that's an absolute best case scenario"

I agree. The spec sounds written for mid-speed driving conditions on level ground and without stopping for traffic lights.

But this spec quibbling misses an important point, IMO.

Raise your hand if you drive more than 30 miles per day. Few do. Even fewer drive 50 miles per day.

....just charge the car each night.

So who cares if real-world mileage is around 100 miles per charge?

There are more options, too:

1) Rent a car for rare trips that exceed the driving limitations of the EV. These days they deliver them to your driveway.
2) Have a 2nd gas car available. Many families (and individuals) have multiple cars.

A bit off topic, check out this video of a Rav4 EV, and click on his user name for tons of other informative videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0pjyJyGbI&feature=PlayList&p=9A4AD061C76569A5&index=0&playnext=1
 
Puppyjump said:
"that's an absolute best case scenario"

I agree. The spec sounds written for mid-speed driving conditions on level ground and without stopping for traffic lights.

But this spec quibbling misses an important point, IMO.

Raise your hand if you drive more than 30 miles per day. Few do. Even fewer drive 50 miles per day.

....just charge the car each night.

So who cares if real-world mileage is around 100 miles per charge?

There are more options, too:

1) Rent a car for rare trips that exceed the driving limitations of the EV. These days they deliver them to your driveway.
2) Have a 2nd gas car available. Many families (and individuals) have multiple cars.

A bit off topic, check out this video of a Rav4 EV, and click on his user name for tons of other informative videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0pjyJyGbI&feature=PlayList&p=9A4AD061C76569A5&index=0&playnext=1
i agree, and i personally could live just fine with 100 miles with appropriate backups for longer trips and opportunity charging at the destination for midrange trips. the EV1 achieved this range by most accounts in its Gen2/NiMH guise. however it also was estimated to cost $80k USD in mid-90s dollars. there's no way that would fly on the open market.
 
Toshi said:
Puppyjump said:
"that's an absolute best case scenario"

I agree. The spec sounds written for mid-speed driving conditions on level ground and without stopping for traffic lights.

But this spec quibbling misses an important point, IMO.

Raise your hand if you drive more than 30 miles per day. Few do. Even fewer drive 50 miles per day.

....just charge the car each night.

So who cares if real-world mileage is around 100 miles per charge?

There are more options, too:

1) Rent a car for rare trips that exceed the driving limitations of the EV. These days they deliver them to your driveway.
2) Have a 2nd gas car available. Many families (and individuals) have multiple cars.

A bit off topic, check out this video of a Rav4 EV, and click on his user name for tons of other informative videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Q0pjyJyGbI&feature=PlayList&p=9A4AD061C76569A5&index=0&playnext=1
i agree, and i personally could live just fine with 100 miles with appropriate backups for longer trips and opportunity charging at the destination for midrange trips. the EV1 achieved this range by most accounts in its Gen2/NiMH guise. however it also was estimated to cost $80k USD in mid-90s dollars. there's no way that would fly on the open market.
That's why I say compare it to what we have now. If you wanted to build a car, price up the motor, power controller, and batteries, what would it really come to? Would it really cost $80K now? Many private shops around the states can do electric car conversions that get 50 miles per charge on lead acid batteries for under $16,000 using parts that they have to order and don't get a mass quantity of discount. So what if you weren't converting a heavy gas car, but started from the ground up (like they did with the EV1), is it really going to cost $80K?

Many of us here can build an e-bike that gets 50 miles per charge, goes just about vehicle speeds, and for probably less than $3,000. Where is the problem in scaling up? Right now, everyone points to the batteries. Sure, a lead acid short range vehicle would be rough, but just like my e-bike, as the batteries get better, you can upgrade for further/faster range.

My e-bike started out in 2004 as a 48 volt @ 12AH setup. It's 2009 and the old batteries are retired, I've upgraded to 75.6 volts @ 13AH and the battery packs only cost $39 per 24 volt pack more than they did 5 years ago ($250 vs $289), plus I get more voltage (25.2 volts) and 13AH instead of 12AH. Not only that, my new batteries don't toast when I run them at full power constantly like my original ones that I could cook eggs on after a long ride. So technology for NiMH at least has gotten a little better. Lithium continues to make leaps and bounds.

I look at it this way, Cell Phones is a good example.

The first Cell Phone, it sucked, had limited range and terrible battery life. People at the time would say "gah, why would I want a phone that I have to charge up all the time? I have a land line that doesn't need batteries". Well, fast forward to now, no one thinks twice about plugging in their cell phone to charge it, it's just part of the way of using it. People need to get use to the same concept for electric cars. If you are not going to drive out of the ev range, then plug it in, charge it up. It will be fresh and ready to go by tomorrow.

As was said in this topic, if you have to go somewhere far away, use the gas burner or rent. You'll still end up saving money in the long run. I have on my e-bike. The massive amount of miles using it for trips and such has saved well over the $500 I spent back in 2004 for the batteries. 5 years and over 30K miles later, I bought some new batteries. 30K miles in gas (especially when gas prices were so high) has not only saved me enough money to buy a better pack, but one that is over 33% more powerful than before. I've got more speed that I need and more range now.

The maintenance cost for my e-bike is tires and brake pads. Dirt cheap stuff to replace really.

Ok, I'll get off my soap box now. :!:
 
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