KT Controller numbers and compatibility

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When I first got the manual and saw that page, I thought "I will never wrap my head around that!".... BUT, last night I did!! Mine is the Forward 8 signal, (meaning 8 magnets on the wheel). So 00,01, or 02 are the only workable settings for me.
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So your PAS is now working?
 

When I first got the manual and saw that page, I thought "I will never wrap my head around that!".... BUT, last night I did!! Mine is the Forward 8 signal, (meaning 8 magnets on the wheel). So 00,01, or 02 are the only workable settings for me.
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So your PAS is now working?
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No, but I am learning how some of this stuff works, and what some of the adjustments are.... A PAS sensor is on its way, and I think a controller will be on its way in the next couple days... so I will have parts to play with soon!!
 
Last night I did the reset of the LCD5 screen. Unfortunately, NO it didn't fix anything. The only thing that changed was the P3 parameter. From the factory P3=1, somehow that was switched to P3=0, but neither setting makes the PAS system work.

I also moved the magnet wheel out just slightly from the very close spacing I had from the PAS sensor.

Going back the LCD% manual (see pic) I find the P3 has to do with the PAS system, but I do not understand the sentence that is circled in the picture????? What does that mumbojumbo mean????
 

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What they meant by it is difficult to say. Technical phrases between Chinese and English don't translate very well either direction, especially by either automated or unskilled translation means, which is the majority of what can be found out there in documentation. :(

However, if it doesn't work in either mode, 0 or 1, it doesn't really matter for this specific problem. ;)

The "imitation torque mode" could refer to either the way it drives the motor, or the way it is controlled via the pedals.

Motors can be controlled by speed control, which is the most common, or by torque control.

The former just outputs a voltage to the motor proportional to how much throttle (or assist level) is used, which causes the motor to spin at a particular speed.

The latter outputs a current to the motor proportional to the throttle/assist level usage, whcih causes the motor to provide a particular amount of torque. This is a more precise way of controlling motor power, and can give a lot smoother control. But it's not usually in cheaper controllers, though some have the "imitation" version that is a little better than the regular speed control. Whether yours supports that or not, I don't know.


To find out if this is what yours means, and if you have the support for it, you can set it to that and ride using throttle, and see if it "feels" different in one mode than the other, mostly for acceleration from a stop, or throttle changes in general. If there's no difference, either yours doesn't support it or it isn't the motor control it's referring to.



If it refers to pedals, there are two basic ways to use a PAS sensor. Cadence sensors like what you have just detect that you are pedalling or not and control the bike's speed based on whether you are pedalling or not plus the assist level you chose. They *could* be used to detect how fast (though most don't do this) you pedal and directly control the speed of the bike as if the pedal speed was a throttle; my SB Cruiser trike does this via the Cycle Analyst v3 (the controllers I use don't have PAS). It's possible that this latter mode is "imitation torque" mode for your controller.

The other basic way to use PAS is to have an actual torque sensor in the cranks (or human-power chainline somewhere) to detect how hard you are pedalling, and then the controller can provide assist power based on that. Yours doesn't have a torque sensor, just cadence, so it might do as I noted above and use the speed you pedal at to imitate this control mode.

Easy to tell if the PAS was working, because you'd be able to vary speed based on pedal speed, rather than having to change assist level to go faster (regardless of pedal speed).

The disadvantage of that way of doing this is that if you can't pedal fast enough to get full assist like on a steep hill, or when first starting out from a stop, you won't get enough assist to keep going or get going, either. That's when having an actual torque sensor is useful, because it can still tell you are really mashing down on the pedals and provide extra power to help you. :) But it's more expensive and more complicated so it's not nearly as common as pure cadence sensors like yours.
 
Just following along...
But something I was curious about.
You mentioned that your display indicated that the PAS was active even though not working when pedaling.
Also that when testing the PAS sensor manually by shorting the signal to ground, that NOTHING happened. Does this include no PAS indication on the display?
 
TommyCat said:
Just following along...
But something I was curious about.
You mentioned that your display indicated that the PAS was active even though not working when pedaling.
Also that when testing the PAS sensor manually by shorting the signal to ground, that NOTHING happened. Does this include no PAS indication on the display?

You are asking if the screen thinks I am pedaling when doing the repeated ground test?? I will have to redo the test to be able to answer that one.... Today I beleive my new PAS sensor is coming in the mail, Let me check a couple of things out.
Thanks
Keith
 
Dunlop said:
You are asking if the screen thinks I am pedaling when doing the repeated ground test?? I will have to redo the test to be able to answer that one....

Yes, that’s what I’m asking. Note that the manual states that this indication automatically shuts off after 5 seconds. Does it? Go off right when brake is applied with the brake indicator coming on with in the 5sec requirement?
 
TommyCat said:
Dunlop said:
You are asking if the screen thinks I am pedaling when doing the repeated ground test?? I will have to redo the test to be able to answer that one....

Yes, that’s what I’m asking. Note that the manual states that this indication automatically shuts off after 5 seconds. Does it? Go off right when brake is applied with the brake indicator coming on with in the 5sec requirement?

Ok, I did 2 tests: First with the PAS hooked up, the screen seems to indicate "PAS" all the time you are pedaling (beyond 5 seconds), and goes off immediately when the brake is applied.... Second, with sensor disconnected, doing the repeated grounding of the signal wire, the "PAS" does illuminate on the screen.
Keith
P.s. I never did really completely understand that statement about it only staying on for 5 seconds.... The throttle indicator on the screen stays on for a long as you have your thumb on the throttle... Why wouldn't the PAS indicator stay on as long as you are pedaling?? (which is exactly what it does).
 
I replaced the PAS sensor that came in the mail today.... NO CHANGE!
Thank you TommyCat, for the pic you posted explaining the different typical wiring colors for PAS sensors.
It is now working the same as before...."PAS" light is on the screen, but no power to the motor.
BPM indicated Monday that they did have a controller in stock. They sent an email that a invoice for $125 would be sent if I chose to proceed. I replied "Send it over", and haven't heard back since, or seen the invoice. Since I have changed out the sensor, it's time for a controller. I know the price is high, but with the promised "expedited shipping", I should get it in a couple days from SoCal.
If the new one repairs the problem, I will open up the old one..... I have been hesitant to open it, in case BPM wanted it back.... but that won't be the case when I am paying ALL the $$$.
Thank you for all the help... I learned a lot in the last few days!!!
Keith
 
Hi Keith,
Thanks for taking the time to do the tests, and for clarifying your results.

Dunlop said:
Ok, I did 2 tests: First with the PAS hooked up, the screen seems to indicate "PAS" all the time you are pedaling (beyond 5 seconds), and goes off immediately when the brake is applied.... Second, with sensor disconnected, doing the repeated grounding of the signal wire, the "PAS" does illuminate on the screen.

This to me would confirm your original theory of the PAS sensor being O.K., but the controller not responding. I see you've tried the new sensor with no success. :( But as a minimal cost component, was worth a try. Only other thing on this side I would have recommended was to try the other PAS sensor settings that shouldn't work to see if the PAS indication stopped working. And when testing to always try reverse turning of the crank occationally. (never know) But as you've gone thru all the configuration settings, I support your action to replace the controller.



Dunlop said:
P.s. I never did really completely understand that statement about it only staying on for 5 seconds.... The throttle indicator on the screen stays on for a long as you have your thumb on the throttle... Why wouldn't the PAS indicator stay on as long as you are pedaling?? (which is exactly what it does).

Seemed kind of wonky to me too. But not the first time a feature was abandoned during manufacturing changes, that made it into an early manual and never updated.



Dunlop said:
Thank you TommyCat, for the pic you posted explaining the different typical wiring colors for PAS sensors.

For those interested, I'm speculating you mean this one...

5OHdYdo.jpg


Since getting into the E-Bike hobby I've always been amazed at the NON-conformity of wiring, wire colors, and lack of instruction/documentation in it. Glad to help. Remember... ALWAYS verify first, then trust. :)



Dunlop said:
If the new one repairs the problem, I will open up the old one..... I have been hesitant to open it, in case BPM wanted it back.... but that won't be the case when I am paying ALL the $$$.

My next big curiosity! Taking a look at the PAS logic chip and board for damaged components... always enjoy an autopsy, but in this case not destructive one. Someone may want to use a throttle only controller!

At the least you may want to take the controller and position it 180 degrees opposite it's position whilst shipping it. And gently rapping it with the handle of a hammer. :shock:
My thought here is if during shipping, a loose piece of solder, manufacturing debris, or loose screw is somehow shorting out a couple terminals rendering PAS nonoperational... Loooooong shot. :wink:


Looking forward to a successful controller replacement.


Regards,
T.C.
 
At a risk of coming to this thread late... I've just finished a build with the G062.1000.D motor (which is excellent btw) and paired it with this controller.

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32819334542.html?spm=a2g0o.9042311.0.0.3ccd4c4d8800Z5

40A is overkill but I run it configured for 20A maximum. I use a KT-LCD5 display. For reference the phase wiring (nothing to do with PAS) was as per the first option in the picture below.

phasechart.jpg
 
Yeah!!! The new controller arrived from the importer, at NO Charge!!

BOOOOOOO!!!! - It didn't fix the problem!!!!!

I have all the same issues... The "PAS" lights up on the screen when pedaling, but no power goes to the motor, and the motor works just fine with the throttle..

SO What next???? The LCD???

I feel like one of those parts changing, non-diagnosing, car mechanics that I despise!!

Please let me know which way to proceed.
Keith
 
TommyCat said:
5OHdYdo.jpg


Since getting into the E-Bike hobby I've always been amazed at the NON-conformity of wiring, wire colors, and lack of instruction/documentation in it.

Brown is positive DC by European standards. Red and black as positive and ground are obeyed too. So all 3 are fairly easy to figure out in this specific case. Yellow ground might be confusing but easily established with a multimeter. :mrgreen:
 
Dunlop said:
I feel like one of those parts changing, non-diagnosing, car mechanics that I despise!!

Time to get some proper diagnostics tools. Like a pocket oscilloscope. These things are cheap in 2022. You can't really debug an electric bike without one.
 
E-HP said:
Can you confirm that you've tried all 8 of the C1 settings, and not just the ones you feel should work?

I can now... I tried all the possible settings for C1 (1-7) I noticed that when I was trying settings 5-7, that the PAS light was NOT lighting up when I was pedaling... This is because I crossed over to the "Reverse" side of the diagram. In settings 5-7 the PAS light would only come on If I were to pedal backwards.

The motor did NOT kick on in any of the C1 setting positions (1-7).

Keith
 
Dunlop said:
E-HP said:
Can you confirm that you've tried all 8 of the C1 settings, and not just the ones you feel should work?

I can now... I tried all the possible settings for C1 (1-7) I noticed that when I was trying settings 5-7, that the PAS light was NOT lighting up when I was pedaling... This is because I crossed over to the "Reverse" side of the diagram. In settings 5-7 the PAS light would only come on If I were to pedal backwards.

The motor did NOT kick on in any of the C1 setting positions (1-7).

Keith

Can you provide your setting for P4 and C4?
Might be info to provide all of your P and C settings, since it's looking more like setting than a physical problem.
 
E-HP said:
Dunlop said:
E-HP said:
Can you confirm that you've tried all 8 of the C1 settings, and not just the ones you feel should work?

The motor did NOT kick on in any of the C1 setting positions (1-7).

Keith

Can you provide your setting for P4 and C4?
Might be info to provide all of your P and C settings, since it's looking more like setting than a physical problem.

I made a mistake on the reply above... It is 8 different settings "0-7"

Anyhow P4 and C4 have always been set to zero (P4=0 and C4=0)
 

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Dunlap, congrats on setting up a reference sheet like you have in the pic above. There's SO much going on with all of the available choices, it's nearly impossible to remember/keep up with everything without something like that.

Keep at it. You'll figure it out!
 
Just wanted to back track and double check something...


Dunlop said:
I don't see anything in there that would disable the PAS...

If on the LCD display the "Power Assist Ratio Gear" is set to 0, PAS will not work.
With this in mind...

Dunlop said:
E-HP said:
Hmm, just to make sure, your PAS level isn't set to 0 right?

No, unless I don't understand your question..... I have a KT-LCD5 and last night when I did the repeated grounding of the signal wire, I had the PAS = 1, and blipped the throttle, and that worked, but nothing happened with the repeated grounding of the signal wire.

From your response it sounds like you had it in gear #1 on the LCD display. Is this true?
If so and nothing happens, would you mind trying it on 3 or even 5.

Still nothing?...

Try setting C3 to "5". After rebooting the system, the display should automatically set the gear level to "5". Then see if the motor turns when turning the pedals.
(Just checking to see if the controller is following your display's gear selection...)
 
You have a new controller and a new PAS sensor? Neither work? They gotta work.

What kind of PAS is it? Separate magnet disk or integrated magnet disk? Having installed about a dozen of these thngs, and only had the pleasure of two integrated units, I would suggest flipping the magnet disk around. and/or reversing the crank direction. The sensors need the North/South poles on the magnets oriented properly and coming from the right direction.

Then if this is a KT controller, jumper it to run without the display. The new one may have come with the jumper/ Blue-Red, and Blk-Yellow. A KT controller doesn't need a display to run.

KT-Jumper.jpg


If it uses the Julet plug, this is the sane pinout.

LCD3_jumper.jpg


P1110645.JPG
 
docw009 said:
What kind of PAS is it? Separate magnet disk or integrated magnet disk? Having installed about a dozen of these thngs, and only had the pleasure of two integrated units, I would suggest flipping the magnet disk around. and/or reversing the crank direction. The sensors need the North/South poles on the magnets oriented properly and coming from the right direction.

Looks like a drive side PAS, 8 magnet, separate sensor, per the pic on the previous page.
 
TommyCat said:
Just wanted to back track and double check something...


Dunlop said:
I don't see anything in there that would disable the PAS...

If on the LCD display the "Power Assist Ratio Gear" is set to 0, PAS will not work.
With this in mind...

Dunlop said:
E-HP said:
Hmm, just to make sure, your PAS level isn't set to 0 right?

No, unless I don't understand your question..... I have a KT-LCD5 and last night when I did the repeated grounding of the signal wire, I had the PAS = 1, and blipped the throttle, and that worked, but nothing happened with the repeated grounding of the signal wire.

From your response it sounds like you had it in gear #1 on the LCD display. Is this true?
If so and nothing happens, would you mind trying it on 3 or even 5.

Still nothing?...

Try setting C3 to "5". After rebooting the system, the display should automatically set the gear level to "5". Then see if the motor turns when turning the pedals.
(Just checking to see if the controller is following your display's gear selection...)

I have tried the PAS in all gears (1-5) and No... Still nothing.
You are misreading the C3 setting.... It is a setting that changes how the controller works in gear 5, but C3 itself can only be set C3=0 or C3=1 (I am not trying to be rude here, but I think re-reading page 19 of the manual will clarify).... Anyhow when you set C3=1 it still fires up on the last gear you were in before, and no it does not fire up the motor in any gears (1-5) :(
I asked about the wording for C3 earlier, and there does seem to be something lost in the translation to English.
PLEASE DON'T TAKE ME WRONG.... I APPRECIATE ANY AND ALL HELP HERE
Below is the link to the LCD5 manual.
http://www.szktdz.com/upload/file/20180702/20180702101913_93939.pdf
To reiterate, I tried both C3=0 and C3=1, in all five gears (1-5).... and the PAS lights on the screen, BUT the motor does not run!
Thanks again,
Keith
 
docw009 said:
You have a new controller and a new PAS sensor? Neither work? They gotta work.

What kind of PAS is it? Separate magnet disk or integrated magnet disk? Having installed about a dozen of these thngs, and only had the pleasure of two integrated units, I would suggest flipping the magnet disk around. and/or reversing the crank direction. The sensors need the North/South poles on the magnets oriented properly and coming from the right direction.

Then if this is a KT controller, jumper it to run without the display. The new one may have come with the jumper/ Blue-Red, and Blk-Yellow. A KT controller doesn't need a display to run.

KT-Jumper.jpg


If it uses the Julet plug, this is the sane pinout.

LCD3_jumper.jpg


P1110645.JPG
This post couldn't have come at a better time!!
My best friend and I were thinking yesterday the problem must be 1. A wiring break between the LCD5 and the controller, or 2. A setting issue, and I added, or 3, the LCD.... This jumper method SEEMS to eliminate all 3 options... BUT,BUT,BUT I have one question: DOES THIS JUMPER METHOD GUARANTEE THAT THE "PAS" SYSTEM SHOULD WORK??
I don't quite understand how you would operate a Ebike without a LCD, but I did the jumper method and pedaling did NOT fire up the motor!!!! However, the throttle does work, as before.... WHAT IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE???
Thanks for any, and all help!!
Keith
 
So, after re re-reading bout the magnet disk rotation, I see that the disk has a rotation direction clearly marked... I checked the marks on my disk... It is installed correctly!! Please remember that it did work, back in Michigan, and after trying a new PAS sensor, it lights the PAS on the screen (when connected) so I have to believe the sensor is not the problem.
Questions:
1. Does the jumper method utilize the PAS system for sure?
2. What kink of data is in the #4 wire (the Green TX wire??
3. If the throttle works, and there are only 3 phase wires running to the motor, there can't be a motor issue?? Right??
Thanks for listening!!
Keith
 
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