LightningRods mid drive kit

[LightningRods]

I know they charge by linear inches and material thickness. I think it's pretty much based on machine time.
I generally provide them a DXF drawing, and they can crank out an estimate in a day or so.
What program are you using to generate your parts drawings? (I use AutoCAD 2012) - If you need help with any CAD work let me know. I'm pretty proficient in AutoCAD, and will work for parts

I do my flat work in Adobe Illustrator and export DXFs. There are some issues converting Illustrator vector lines to AutoCAD splines. One of the reason I've put up with my existing shop is that they are able to work with my files. I tried another laser shop that couldn't.

I will hit you up for CAD help if I get stuck. :wink:

 

[cheekybloke]

Gentleman, I need to get a new rear wheel ordered up for this kit. Any suggestions on a rear hub to fit the Raptor 140's 165mm dropout?
I'd like to match my blue Hope Pro2 Evo hub going up front but it looks like the widest rear hub Hope makes is 142mm. Am I looking at this correctly or can axles be replaced and spacers inserted for the difference (i.e. 165mm-142mm = 17mm in spacers).

Also Mike, I have not received a response from Ziva on the Qulbix controller mounting area dimensions but hopefully she will get to it soon.

Also, posted a question in the Adaptto MaxE Controller thread about using the controller with a mid-drive. We'll see what response comes but. Thread is here if anyone is interested: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=61183&p=918027#p918032

hope make a 150mm wide hub ,
darren

 

[bandaro]

urgh, I hate illustrator for tech drawing, I would strongly recommend downloading rhinoceros, it is a much more powerful program and is brilliant for lasercutting. I use Creo and solidworks for 3d printing, but rhino wins hands down for laser cutting. It opens and saves as pretty much any file without a problem, and very user friendly interface. That being said, I've never had a problem routing/laser cutting straight off the .ai files, just use vector lines and it's all good.

It's a great product you have going, let me know if you need cad advice/help.

 

[LightningRods]

I hated learning Illustrator but at this point I've figured out how to do so many things with it that it works great for me. The full on CAD program that I'm really interested in is Solidworks. I'm hoping to delegate a lot of the repetitive production work that I do now and concentrate more on design work.

 

[teslanv]

Solidworks is where the manufacturing guys are going to. It's on my list of software to learn as well.
If AutoCAD is king of 2D drawings, then Solidworks is the king of 3D modeling and Computer-aided manufacturing. - You would be wise to move to SW for your designs.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

Mike, what are your thoughts on using the Adaptto MaxE + Adaptto BMS for your big block kit?

I thought the main point of spending the money for the Adaptto MaxE dealing with the supply issues, is to get a superior controller. So either the emperor has no clothes, or it is much better than the inexpensive Chinese-Lyen controller? If you already have two of them, why would you want to even consider using a cheap Chinese-Lyen controller instead?

The Adaptto MaxE, is probably not as good as the Sevcon with sin/cos sensors combo that Luke is talking about, but to get truly superior results, obviously requires a superior controller:

Two nice things about the sin/cos sensor:
    * It gets the position sensing element out of the stator heat flux
    * It allows precise timing advance with the right controller just like a timing map in an IC ECM

Yes sir it does. We did it mainly for the heat reason you mentioned, as hall melting failure was our demise at the last race event, as well as a previous race.

The second reason you mentioned wasn't really something we were needing for this application, but WOW! It just make it silky smooth, no more chug-chug-chug at low RPM's as each hall sensor latches and tells the fets to switch the next coil on, it's just silky now, you can make the motor spin so slowly you can barely see it moving at all, and it's just perfectly smooth with no torque ripple noticed at all now. Really feels like electric power should feel at all RPM's rather than little bumps of torque pulses when you're at low speeds.

It directly takes the Sine/Cosine input from the encoder. I think it's good to 0.25deg rotor position if I'm not mistaken. The halls were good to 6deg resolution (10 poles, 3 halls on 120deg spacing)

It's fun having this much torque too, I just nosed the front wheel up to a staircase outside a strip mall, and in a very slow controlled calm way, just torqued up the 10 stairs or so and rode along the sidewalk path at the top. It felt even easier than walking up stairs, though the seat does kinda smash into your ass as the rear tire goes over each step. I don't know that it would have been possible to do it so effortlessly on hall sensors.

 

 

[tahustvedt]

The best CAD software is the one you know how to use well.

 

[LightningRods]

The best CAD software is the one you know how to use well.

There is a lot of truth to that!

 

[r3volved]

The best CAD software is the one you know how to use well.

I've been trying to learn 3D modeling for a while now too and this is exactly the reason I also revert back to Illustrator 99% of the time.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

IMO if you want pedal assist the kit should be geared, so that with your pack voltage, about 80% of no-load RPM is a comfortable cadence for you to maintain:

What is your normal pedal cadence? & your MAX cadence?
I would gear it to just short of your max cadence so you can give the bike meaningfull assist with the cranks. I set up a crank drive with a friend who was determined to have it spin 130 (against my advice) It was really worthless for adding any pedal input.

Once re-geard for 85 max....the bike became a Joy to ride & gained a lot of efficiency....it really makes you feel like superman on the pedals.

I have some experience w/regard to this.....the variant is I was using a very small outrunner (turnigy 6374) the motor had no issues turning the cranks at 130 rpm.....but it was worthless trying to pedal along with the motor. Any time you would add motor in a lower gear the pedals would just drop out from under your feet & the bike would wheelie away....once re-geared to the max comfortable human cadence, the throttle became a dial to add as much boost as you needed...& the entire gear range came into play....bike still did 25+ mph & became a joy to stand up & pedal on the trail & up any hill we could find.

Hard to put into words, but It is my favorite e-bike drive I have experienced.....

I say match the human....you can always use road chain rings to get the speed your looking for.

IMO that is particularly important if you plan to use a THUN. If "the pedals would just drop out from under your feet" how can you expect to apply smooth or consistent power with a THUN?

I would choose the chainring size, and sprockets or IGH to control the lowest speed (power) and the top speed. The following might be helpful in determining your lowest speed requirements (the Mac reduction was less than the LR kit reduction):

top speed of 8.2 mph in first gear with a 50V/50A (2.5kw) Mac motor spinning internally at 1,200 rpm you could almost pull out a small stump

LOL! With my first gear top speed on my MAC mid drive, of 12 MPH (TESTED) at only 1200 watts I could pull out a small stump, with that combo you could pull a small house down! LOL!

Note: One reason I posted the low speed quotes above is to address the concerns of the 29er mtn bike rider a few pages back. He can easily set up his gearing for enough low speed power (29er needs about 12% more reduction than a 26"). Low speed control (superior controller) will have a big impact on his overall results.

If you want a 62t chainring equivalent for high-speed pedaling and your bike has a 68mm ISIS BB, an excellent choice is Justin's modified version of the 2-speed patterson crankset (I would consider choosing a compatible frame):
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=60703

Hey, I don't normally post new stuff for sale here but this is a particular case. We ended up making a modified version of the 2-speed patterson freewheeling crankset for a custom freewheeling stokemonkey mid-drive for edgerunner bikes, which included machining the left crank for a 12 pole PAS magnet ring attachment, modifying the right side to use a 39T rather than the included 28T chainring, and also machining a new aluminum chainguard for this larger ring...

The reason for all these mods was to help compensate for the small 20" wheel of the edgerunner frame. But these changes could also make it an awesome fit for pedaling along with high speed ebikes. The 39T chainring gets geared up to an equivalent of a 62T ring when the Patterson is in overdrive mode, and that means you're be able to keep up pedaling at a comfortable cadence even in the 30-35mph territory where normally most pedal gearing becomes fairly useless.

Not that pedaling at 35+ mph contributes a whole lot in terms of extending your range given that the motor is still doing 90-95% of the work, but it is really nice to still be able to pedal which simply isn't an option with regular gearing.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I just started a thread titled "Tutorial-EasiestWayToCalculateGearingVsSpeed-IGH-Derailleur" using Sheldon Browns Calulator:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=61465&p=918246#p918246

One of the motivating factors, was watching all of the questions, and painfully difficult solutions on this thread. Here are two screen captures that are on that thread (here you go emayen):

Results:

 

[LightningRods]

Thanks for that information, Mitch. Of particular interest to me were Thud's comments about matching the motor reduction to the human pedaling cadence. I think that torque sensing and PAS riders are 48V people. With 35-40 amps to play with and 48V the cadence, power and speed are all nicely balanced.

An easy thing to read right past but also very important is "...you can always use road chain rings to get the speed your looking for." In most cases, and definitely with torque sensing or PAS on a BB mid drive, motor reduction serves to set your pedaling cadence. Once you have your pedaling cadence set adjust your gearing with the final drive chain rings. On most bikes there will be a limit to how much speed you can gear for with a reasonable sub 100 pedaling cadence. There is a limit to how big a front chain ring you can fit and as Wishes and others have observed going with too few teeth on the rear causes the chain to skip.

One item on my wish list is a jackshaft behind the BB that we can gear to increase the overdrive from the BB without using huge and tiny sprockets.

 

[emaayan]

hey that's me YA'LL talking about

it's important to know that using thun with CA 3 allows you to fine tune your performance, for example you enter the factor the motor input in proportions to your pedaling ( by 1, 1.5 2 etc..) you can also set minimum HUMAN watts required to actually get the motor running, so it could either from 100 or from 50, i believe this would ensure you won't get any surprise jumps from the motor, (it also depends on the controller you have, getting a balacned curve of throttle to amps).
however even though i do want to keep the option for pedal assist i wouldn't want it hamper any real speed gains i might get.

i allready know about sheldon's gear calculator, that's how i got the impression that using the standard reduction of 33:1 would get a max theoretical speed of abou 50 kph, which would proably mean less in real life at least 45 if not 40 kph. doing 38 kph is possible today with my mac motor with better battery life. so in order to increase that speed i would need to do at LEAST one of the following

1. decrease the alfine sprocket from 20T to 18T - but that means dealing with snap ring of doom, and i'd rather avoid that. plus it doesn't increase speed by much
2. increase the front chain ring sprocket to 50T (maximum 104 bcd i could find) - that would increase the theoretical speed to 64 kph, while using the standard kit's reduction, but would over step shimano's recommendations of 1.9 ratio between sprocket and front chainring
3. decrease the reduction ratio of drive. if i order the most extreme combo of 64/18 sprockets on top of 80/12, i could have a 181,150,97 rpm settings i could play around to get speed vs power settings
4. move to 72 voltage pack - but i just started using paul's pack and i REALLY don't want to spend more.

the current performance i'm getting is really good thrust, i can reach 50 kph in less then 10 seconds. but the usage is around 36wh/km. and i understand that's less then what's acceptable.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Mike,

An easy thing to read right past but also very important is "...you can always use road chain rings to get the speed your looking for." In most cases, and definitely with torque sensing or PAS on a BB mid drive, motor reduction serves to set your pedaling cadence. Once you have your pedaling cadence set adjust your gearing with the final drive chain rings. On most bikes there will be a limit to how much speed you can gear for with a reasonable sub 100 pedaling cadence. There is a limit to how big a front chain ring you can fit and as Wishes and others have observed going with too few teeth on the rear causes the chain to skip.

One item on my wish list is a jackshaft behind the BB that we can gear to increase the overdrive from the BB without using huge and tiny sprockets.

Great idea, but if it will fit your bike, isn't Justin's 2-speed patterson crankset an easier solution?

If you need a 62t chainring for high-speed pedaling and your bide has a 68mm ISIS BB an excellent choice is Justin's modified version of the 2-speed patterson crankset (I would consider choosing a compatible frame):
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=60703

Hey, I don't normally post new stuff for sale here but this is a particular case. We ended up making a modified version of the 2-speed patterson freewheeling crankset for a custom freewheeling stokemonkey mid-drive for edgerunner bikes, which included machining the left crank for a 12 pole PAS magnet ring attachment, modifying the right side to use a 39T rather than the included 28T chainring, and also machining a new aluminum chainguard for this larger ring...

I'm about to start looking for a bike for my wife, for use with your kit, and a bike with a 68mm ISIS BB is on the list of requirements, for that reason.

 

[LightningRods]

Great idea, but if it will fit your bike, isn't Justin's 2-speed patterson crankset an easier solution?

I also want to run the power from the motor directly to the jackshaft and never go to the BB. Pedal power and motor power will join at the jackshaft. That will avoid reducing the motor rpm 33x only to overdrive it back up 4x. Also the freewheel BB becomes unnecessary and a lot more BB/pedal crank options open up.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi emaayan,

it's important to know that using thun with CA 3 allows you to fine tune your performance, for example you enter the factor the motor input in proportions to your pedaling ( by 1, 1.5 2 etc..) you can also set minimum HUMAN watts required to actually get the motor running, so it could either from 100 or from 50, i believe this would ensure you won't get any surprise jumps from the motor, (it also depends on the controller you have, getting a balanced curve of throttle to amps).

How is that going to work if the human watts drop to zero whenever you hit the throttle? IMO not very well, but I've never actually tried it, so if you do please let us know how it actually works.

 

[emaayan]

throttle input overrides thun input.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

throttle input overrides thun input.

The thun doesn't work and you override it with the throttle? So what's the point of even installing the thun?

 

[emaayan]

Hi,

throttle input overrides thun input.

The thun doesn't work and you override it with the throttle? So what's the point of even installing the thun?

NOT working with the throttle.. if you wanna pedal, just pedal and forget about the throttle, if you wanna to throttle, don't pedal.

 

[--freeride--]

for playing arround with gear ratio and Cadence that is a nice tool:

http://franzschneck.de/Entfaltung/EntfaltungsRechner.htm

it is in german

cadence is "Trittfrequenz"

There are all tire sizes and all hubs available.

For pedaling a no load max. rpm of 130 at the crank should be perfekt.

 

[LightningRods]

Note that this article advocates an increase in cadence to a fast pace of 80-100 rpm.

Rationale for Increasing Pedaling Cadence
by Jason Schisler on January 16, 2012 in Cycling, Indoor Riding, Off-Season Training

One of the central components of off-season training is improving your technical skills. On the bike, this includes looking at pedaling economy and potentially increasing cadence. A common mistake among new cyclists, and some more experienced riders as well, is a pedaling cadence that is too low. This article will offer insight regarding why an increased pedaling rate may be beneficial to your performance and how you can start spinning faster effectively.

First, it is necessary to understand a bit of the science behind power production at different cadences as well as the related physiology. Physics tells us that power is the result of work divided by time, or in the case of cycling gear ratios, divided by cadence. What this means is that it’s technically possible to produce a given power in any gear on the bike provided the appropriate cadence adjustments are made. As you might imagine, the number of gears in which a given power can be produced efficiently is much smaller.

Laboratory testing attempting to determine the most economical pedaling rate has continually found this rate to occur at 50-60 rpms when viewed in terms of power produced in relation to energy consumed. Interestingly, it is also well established that both amateur and elite cyclists freely choose to pedal at a much higher and less metabolically efficient rate of 80-100 rpms. Although researchers have not been able to reach a consensus, the most likely explanation is a greater relative contribution from the cardiovascular system at higher cadences.

The heart and lungs that make up the cardiovascular system work non-stop.

This means that although they are not capable of tremendous force production, the endurance of the systems is seldom limited. The muscular system, on the other hand, will recruit the minimum number of motor units to complete a task, beginning with the weaker but more aerobically efficient slow-twitch fibers and progressing to the stronger but anaerobically fueled fast-twitch fibers as slow-twitch fiber capacity is exceeded. Adopting a pedaling rhythm that keeps the force requirements low enough to be sustained primarily by the slow-twitch fibers, and thus the cardiovascular system, can spare fuel in the anaerobic fibers and delay fatigue late in exercise.

Remember our earlier point that a given power can be produced with several different gearing and cadence combinations. For example, let’s take the power required to maintain 20 mph, approximately 200 watts depending on body size, aerodynamic drag and terrain conditions. You could ride at 200 watts in the biggest gear on the bike, and cadence would probably be in the range of 40-60 rpms. Conversely, you could also ride at 200 watts in a more moderate gear and 80-100 rpm. In the latter case, you have reduced the force requirement of each pedal stroke in half – a load within reach of the slow-twitch fibers – but compensated by producing that force more frequently to maintain overall workload.

Depending on your current preferred cadence, adopting a higher cadence may not immediately result in improved efficiency and delayed fatigue. Faster pedaling will result in increased breathing and heart rate at a given power output as demand on the cardiovascular system increases. The neurological system will also have to undergo some learning to become more efficient at rapidly cycling each motor unit. On first attempt, it’s possible to actually fatigue more quickly, and it could take a month or more to fully adapt to a higher cadence.

The approach to faster and more economical pedaling will not differ significantly from the approach you take to improve power, except that the emphasis will be on cadence rather than workload. Short intervals at high workloads are employed to increase sustainable power on longer duration rides. In the same way, short intervals of high-cadence pedaling will allow you to more easily maintain a high cadence for extended durations. Two favorite routines follow:

Spin-ups: start in a moderate gear at the top of a slight descent. Begin rolling down the hill pedaling at a comfortable cadence. As your speed increases, don’t shift, just keep pedaling faster until the cadence is too high to avoid hips bouncing. Recover and repeat this sequence, trying to smoothly spin a little faster on each attempt.
High-cadence intervals: during a submax ride, shift 2-3 gears easier than normal and increase cadence to maintain power while maintaining smooth pedaling movements. Stay in this gear for 5-10 minutes and then return to your normal rhythm. Repeat several times over the duration of the ride.
With some patience and practice, you will soon find yourself capable of effectively adopting a higher cadence. Whether you race on the track, in crits, time trials or triathlon, there are benefits to be gained. Make use of your off-season training to implement these changes and the adaptation should be complete by the spring so that you will be ready for more focused work on energy system development.

 

[waynebergman]

Interesting stuff LR.

For me its all about adding some pedal assist to stay comfortable in the saddle. When I compare how I feel after riding a dirt bike with no pedals or even my old street cruiser my ageing shoulders and buggered up knees start to hurt. I am good for about an hour of this and I just want to call it a day. When I ride my e-bike spinning at around 80 or so all is well and I can spin and sit in the saddle for a long time with no pain or problems. Spinning at over 100 my knees don't like it ( part of becoming a senior citizen I think ) . So for me with a mid drive its all about being able to catch up to the motor with my pedal assist at a comfortable spin. My last mid drive with the cross break style drive was wonderful at this. 50+ volts and a nice cadence right up to 40mph. So I guess what I am saying its not so much about efficiency but comfort, and comfort for a one hour or two hour pedal that has my interest.

 

[Mammalian04]

Hey LR,

The guys over in the Adaptto thread are helping me determine if I can use a mid-drive with the MaxE controller.

It appears I need to know the maximum eRPM (maximum RPM times the number of poles). I would guess maximum RPM is based on my voltage of 86v.

Do you know these specs for the big block? It might be useful to post the eRPM of the regular motor too for those interested in that route.

 

[LightningRods]

Interesting stuff LR.

For me its all about adding some pedal assist to stay comfortable in the saddle. When I compare how I feel after riding a dirt bike with no pedals or even my old street cruiser my ageing shoulders and buggered up knees start to hurt. I am good for about an hour of this and I just want to call it a day. When I ride my e-bike spinning at around 80 or so all is well and I can spin and sit in the saddle for a long time with no pain or problems. Spinning at over 100 my knees don't like it ( part of becoming a senior citizen I think ) . So for me with a mid drive its all about being able to catch up to the motor with my pedal assist at a comfortable spin. My last mid drive with the cross break style drive was wonderful at this. 50+ volts and a nice cadence right up to 40mph. So I guess what I am saying its not so much about efficiency but comfort, and comfort for a one hour or two hour pedal that has my interest.

I agree with you Wayne. I think that a cadence of 80 would be better than 96. The problem we start to run into is being able to overdrive the final drive enough to have a decent top speed. Most bicycles are overdriven 1:4 in top gear for a top speed of 25-30 mph. Adding more power through an electric motor won't make you go faster than the gearing will allow.

Where I hope to end up in my mid drive adventures is a way to have whatever cadence we want and as high a top speed as we want.

 

[LightningRods]

Hey LR,

The guys over in the Adaptto thread are helping me determine if I can use a mid-drive with the MaxE controller.

It appears I need to know the maximum eRPM (maximum RPM times the number of poles). I would guess maximum RPM is based on my voltage of 86v.

Do you know these specs for the big block? It might be useful to post the eRPM of the regular motor too for those interested in that route.

The small block and big block both have 8 magnets oriented NSNSNSNS. As I understand it that's eight poles. The small block has a kv of 67 for max revs of 5,762 @ 86v. The big block has a kv of 62.5. That means max revs of 5,375 @ 86v. I'm not familiar with the expression "eRPM" but doing the math as you describe I come up with 46,096 for the small block and 43,000 for the big block. I hope those were the numbers you wanted.