I hope he's in the shop...instead of in front of a computer. BTW, he's also been sending out GNG upgrade parts.
LightningRods mid drive kit
- Thread starter spinningmagnets
- Start date
Samd
10 MW
This thread is playing out a bit like Kresimir's Bioplanet bike process.
My learnings from that which I apply to the custom frames I sell - and I would encourage others to consider for ES:
- take about half as a deposit to cover your materials
- take the balance as profit when done - profit is a reward to for adding value or taking risk.
- only put something up for a fully paid up sale when the item is fully finished without a known buyer. The ES community aren't your personal interest free bank.
- if you have a lot of people waiting for a lot of items to be assembled over a lot of time, do them sequentially, publish a list and cross them off one at a time in a public forum.
Manage their expectations.
This may play out just fine. But it's gone the other way before.
My learnings from that which I apply to the custom frames I sell - and I would encourage others to consider for ES:
- take about half as a deposit to cover your materials
- take the balance as profit when done - profit is a reward to for adding value or taking risk.
- only put something up for a fully paid up sale when the item is fully finished without a known buyer. The ES community aren't your personal interest free bank.
- if you have a lot of people waiting for a lot of items to be assembled over a lot of time, do them sequentially, publish a list and cross them off one at a time in a public forum.
Manage their expectations.
This may play out just fine. But it's gone the other way before.
r3volved
100 kW
Lol this looks nothing like bio planet
He's done all the things you list there
He's been selling parts for a year or so that I know of, engineered and fabricated by himself. His kit product was due to a market demanding a product, not producing a product to an unknown buyer.
It's straight up first world problems.
People expecting special treatment for nothing. Wanting a top quality product - at no cost - next day. That's not how any industry works. This attitude is exactly why manufacturing has frocked off to Asia.
He's done all the things you list there
He's been selling parts for a year or so that I know of, engineered and fabricated by himself. His kit product was due to a market demanding a product, not producing a product to an unknown buyer.
It's straight up first world problems.
People expecting special treatment for nothing. Wanting a top quality product - at no cost - next day. That's not how any industry works. This attitude is exactly why manufacturing has frocked off to Asia.
Samd said:
Lenk42602
10 kW
r3volved said:
That's a compelling opinion. You should be a consultant!
Thanks!
Len
Samd
10 MW
I think you mean long batch runs of 100 parts by outdated processes, not the sequential single piece flow I've described. Which is exactly my point.r3volved said:
What's the piece time to assemble now - four hours? Could one be shipped by this time tomorrow?
I tell you what, loan me eight hundred bucks for six months can you - I want to start a new product line with your cash. Thanks for that!
Lenk42602
10 kW
Samd said:
I sure hope this is not what's going on here.
It would be real bummer if delays are due to re-prioritizing new revenue opportunities (e.g., LR GNG upgrade parts shipping out BEFORE kits as Spinningmagnets indicated) in order to pay off some unforeseen production expenses (new combo lathe mill, 20 ton press, rotary table, etc.) as a result of the decision to move the bulk of the operation in house rather than outsource.
Those costs should be absorbed over time by increasing the price of the products as demand increases, paying off some sort of low interest, capital expenditure loan. Certainly should NOT be using the revenue generated by selling products before delivery to pay off capital expenses. Revenue generated from product sales should be applied to direct expenses associated with the COG, most notably labor and materials.
Len
courcheval
100 W
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2011
- Messages
- 140
If anybody builds a reliable fat bike with a hub gear system, he has a customer , wherever it needs to go to get it
tylerwatts
100 W
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2012
- Messages
- 212
I think we appreciate Mike is working hard to get these kits ironed out and delivered in order of purchase to customers. As said, he is facing alot of new small business challenges and it is expected when starting out. I would think we appreciate Mike's operation is not a volume production facility setup but him offering his passion and skills as a product to others like minded and we need to give him chance to deliver on his offer of such as customers.
I doubt anybody requested a written invoice or receipt when ordering and have started out in good faith and support of a cause to offer a product we clearly all want. To that end you cannot expect a guarantee of perfect delivery performance first time or think you are owed some obligation to get you your product at any cost. Mike is working hard and sharing progress and evidence of such and not hiding things from his customers in good faith that you will continue to support him, and as Spinningmagnets said, his delay was 6 months to begin with so things are getting better and with Mike's current investment he should have a pretty reliable production line and product that we would all be proud to own.
Mike (LightningRods) keep up the excellent work sir, your effort is recognized. I am eagerly awaiting you getting an online store going so that I can order from the UK, so keep at it sir, and great work so far!
I doubt anybody requested a written invoice or receipt when ordering and have started out in good faith and support of a cause to offer a product we clearly all want. To that end you cannot expect a guarantee of perfect delivery performance first time or think you are owed some obligation to get you your product at any cost. Mike is working hard and sharing progress and evidence of such and not hiding things from his customers in good faith that you will continue to support him, and as Spinningmagnets said, his delay was 6 months to begin with so things are getting better and with Mike's current investment he should have a pretty reliable production line and product that we would all be proud to own.
Mike (LightningRods) keep up the excellent work sir, your effort is recognized. I am eagerly awaiting you getting an online store going so that I can order from the UK, so keep at it sir, and great work so far!
tylerwatts
100 W
- Joined
- Sep 14, 2012
- Messages
- 212
Being able to buy the product as a customer and get it through customs. Have others done so directly from LightningRods' website or contact on the forum? I wouldn't feel comfortable putting Mike in that position as a business owner or acquaintance on the forum... But that it just my opinion.
online store doesn't turn you into a customer, paying money does. everyone who ordered from L-R did so with directly, i did with when he sent in a paypal payment request, and have arranged for whatever customs requirements there are. (especially for me, sorry to say, my paranoia made some insane caution which drove him a little inane, sorry mike.). it's true that an online store makes things more streamlined and official, and i've already showed there websites that can handle it. but it's not mandatory. i've purchased my ecospeed kit directly with a phone call.
stonezone
100 W
Well I just broke my Clavicle so I'm ok with waiting a bit...
LightningRods
1 MW
Hi Guys-
I may go back through all of this and I may not. I found that the way the dialogue was turning was making it difficult for me to do the work. There's something about being in a 95 degree shop making parts after you've gotten your ass chewed. All you want to do is say f*ck it and go do something else.
I finally got my current sheets order from the laser shop and at least the quality of the work is really good. Some of the best cut quality I've gotten from them. I now have stretch versions of the 68mm, 73mm, 83mm and 100mm BB sheets. The 100s are for Giant DH Comps that several customers asked me to make sheets for. Here are pictures of the 68 and 100mm stretch sheets and the 100 stretch fitted to the DH Comp that a customer was good enough to ship to me.
The stretch 68 is going to Finn in Denmark who has been waiting patiently for it.
I've finished two more kits. Here is the revised production queue:
Completed- Ron R- US
Completed- Eric- US
Completed- Dennis P- Canada
Completed- David B- UK
1- Leif D- US X
2- Herman L- US X
3- Elhanan M- Israel X
4- Dawson J- Canada X
5- Len K- US
6- James D- Canada
7- Bryan K- US
8- Vincent D- Canada
9- Brian M- US
10- Jeremy L- US
11- Andrew F- UK
12- Tom F- US
One conversation that I did have the misfortune to notice was the theory that I was redirecting the money paid for kits to some other purpose. First off, I pulled $10,000 out of my other established business to throw into this endeavor last year. Secondly, I've spent 100% of the money paid for kits on buying parts. I posted photographs of many of the parts to head off this sort of conspiracy theory reasoning. Anyone who wants a box of unpainted, unassembled parts that they can sort out and assemble themselves can have their 'kit' PDQ. It's all here.
Thanks for the PMs of support that various Forum members took the time to send me this week. I heard from some of the people I respect most on this forum, several of them builders themselves.
I may go back through all of this and I may not. I found that the way the dialogue was turning was making it difficult for me to do the work. There's something about being in a 95 degree shop making parts after you've gotten your ass chewed. All you want to do is say f*ck it and go do something else.
I finally got my current sheets order from the laser shop and at least the quality of the work is really good. Some of the best cut quality I've gotten from them. I now have stretch versions of the 68mm, 73mm, 83mm and 100mm BB sheets. The 100s are for Giant DH Comps that several customers asked me to make sheets for. Here are pictures of the 68 and 100mm stretch sheets and the 100 stretch fitted to the DH Comp that a customer was good enough to ship to me.
The stretch 68 is going to Finn in Denmark who has been waiting patiently for it.
I've finished two more kits. Here is the revised production queue:
Completed- Ron R- US
Completed- Eric- US
Completed- Dennis P- Canada
Completed- David B- UK
1- Leif D- US X
2- Herman L- US X
3- Elhanan M- Israel X
4- Dawson J- Canada X
5- Len K- US
6- James D- Canada
7- Bryan K- US
8- Vincent D- Canada
9- Brian M- US
10- Jeremy L- US
11- Andrew F- UK
12- Tom F- US
One conversation that I did have the misfortune to notice was the theory that I was redirecting the money paid for kits to some other purpose. First off, I pulled $10,000 out of my other established business to throw into this endeavor last year. Secondly, I've spent 100% of the money paid for kits on buying parts. I posted photographs of many of the parts to head off this sort of conspiracy theory reasoning. Anyone who wants a box of unpainted, unassembled parts that they can sort out and assemble themselves can have their 'kit' PDQ. It's all here.
Thanks for the PMs of support that various Forum members took the time to send me this week. I heard from some of the people I respect most on this forum, several of them builders themselves.
KMB
10 mW
Well...this verifies it....in any large group of great people....there are always a few a** holes....Mike...you have been one of the most upstanding people to grace ES. Don't lose the vision...if only everyone had the guts you have...
KMB said:
i would like to quickly suggest cease and decease named calling, or the ones who will be named will quickly lashout, and this thread will go into unwanted directions, which may or may not be deleted by moderators, we should all cool down, take breather, and.... 95 DEGREES HOLLY CRAP, WHAT HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU, I DON'T WANT TO MY KIT TO CONTAIN PIECES OF LIQUID MIKE IN IT!!! GET AN A/C STAT!! (this is from a person for goes insane at 73 ).
eride
10 mW
''The stretch 68 is going to Finn in Denmark who has been waiting patiently for it.''
Sweet music in my ears. It might just arrive soon enough for my 50th bd the 28th .....what a present - thx Mike
//Finn
Sweet music in my ears. It might just arrive soon enough for my 50th bd the 28th
.....what a present - thx Mike//Finn
recumpence
1 GW
I think posting the production completion list is a great idea. It keeps everyone informed and keeps the overall blood pressure down.
Matt
Matt
unless he starts posting pictures next to each one, they it sky rockets..back uprecumpence said:
personally i've been using the time, to calculate and re-calculate the potential and actual RPM based on my current kit, i'm pretty sure that i get 126 RPM on the BMC (because ecospeed is using 21.47 reduction, and with sheldon's gear calculator and 53 kph at 51 volts, but the potential RPM if the BMC can reach even 191 per volt (depends on what model i have, they get like gazilion mini models and versions, which you'll never find on their site), so that would mean it's 65% of the potential RPM. but, i'm also getting 1.5 km per 1 ah, which i'm guessing wastes a lot of heat, so in theory i should get MORE RPM with L-R kit.
the worst case scenario with 39T and std sprockets, i could get around 35 kph top speed, (assuming maximum 67 RPM crank) even with my 50T chainring, i may get 42 kph, with the extra 18/64 sprockets i believe i could maintain the current speed only with better milage , so the extra sprockets are what's holding my kit, (and naturally the kits with precedes it).
or i could be completely wrong and with every maximum speeds sprockets i could reach
Lenk42602
10 kW
LightningRods said:
Mike,
Thanks for the update. Clarification about your status eliminates speculation.
We all appreciate your commitment to this endeavor, financial and otherwise.
You do realize that you have indicated above that you have spent the proceeds of a sold item before delivering the product to the customer?
Finally, this is the second time you've indicated to pre-paid customers that they can receive their kits unassembled, or other wise not in the "complete" state that was originally agreed upon for the original price. If I recall this was a bit of a special offer for the early, prepaying adopters that believed in you with their money, rather than solely with their hearts....
You are in a retail environment, which you have chosen. You have created the original terms, which early adopters evaluated and determined was a good value, paying up front.
It has clearly been a challenge, as most things in life are. Sorry its not going perfectly as planned, but retail is not easy. Retail is a series of challenges, and it is important to remain impersonal and professional with your customers. As someone said above, if you don't manage your customer's expectations, they will do it for you. Consider it a blessing that you own this enterprise and can tell anyone to bugger off and simply give them their money back.
I noticed in one of your photos that you are spray painting the kit (sheets, motor, etc)?
If this is the case, and if it will help you out, you can skip the painting step prior to the final assembly of my kit.
Let me know,
Len
speedmd
10 MW
I have been to the movie a few hundred times, and it's always a horror show. I would cancel any order for anyone complaining as some have here about delivery on a developing product. Mike, if you can afford it, just return the payment to the whiners and let them deal with the crappy kits out there. No sense working out all the assembly / quality / supplier issues with them giving you hell at the same time. It is not worth it. 20% of them are giving you 80% of your headache and it may be time to loose most of the 80% of your trouble.
Let them deal with the crappy controllers that sometimes work and sometime do not. Let them buy the stock kits from GN and get none....adjustable anything and lots of crappy parts they can not replace easily. Let them do there own development / build on the belts/ pulleys/ jack shaft/ chain/ sprockets/ adapters. Your doing it the correct way. Ship only when your happy with what you have. The rest will take care of itself with good work being shipped when / if ready. Best wishes.
cheers
Let them deal with the crappy controllers that sometimes work and sometime do not. Let them buy the stock kits from GN and get none....adjustable anything and lots of crappy parts they can not replace easily. Let them do there own development / build on the belts/ pulleys/ jack shaft/ chain/ sprockets/ adapters. Your doing it the correct way. Ship only when your happy with what you have. The rest will take care of itself with good work being shipped when / if ready. Best wishes.
cheers
speedmd said:
mike, he never said that, you just imagined you saw it, your'e having a dream, no one's telling you to perfect you kit, you're happy what you have right now, look at the shiney object, your'e in happy place. please ,please please , don't get any more perfection idea ..
LightningRods
1 MW
Perfection doesn't exist. I've said repeatedly that these kits won't be perfect. They'll just be the best I can do. I'm still in the steep part of my learning curve. A year from now, if I survive this, I know I'll look back at my first efforts as really rough. You have to start somewhere.
I'm going to continue to produce kits as quickly as I can. When I get to the next person's name on the list if their order still stands I'll ship them a kit. I'm not seeing anything productive or helpful in the negativity so I'm going to ignore it.
Today is my birthday. I'm going to spend it painting as many of the parts as possible for all of the orders I have in. At some point this evening I'm going to stop and go have a burger and a beer or three. Tomorrow I'll get up and do it again. Cheers.
I'm going to continue to produce kits as quickly as I can. When I get to the next person's name on the list if their order still stands I'll ship them a kit. I'm not seeing anything productive or helpful in the negativity so I'm going to ignore it.
Today is my birthday. I'm going to spend it painting as many of the parts as possible for all of the orders I have in. At some point this evening I'm going to stop and go have a burger and a beer or three. Tomorrow I'll get up and do it again. Cheers.
