LightningRods mid drive kit

[John Bozi]

ElectricGod is that a big block?

A bit of concern there, because I have been suspicious of my temperature readings on mine. Roughly what you say.

For me my readings on CA are 50c, with gun to outside 55c, so I give another 5c for error so about your temps in F after hard riding.

What was your max volt amp settings when this happened?

 

[LightningRods]

That is NOT a big block!

 

[ElectricGod]

ElectricGod is that a big block?

A bit of concern there, because I have been suspicious of my temperature readings on mine. Roughly what you say.

For me my readings on CA are 50c, with gun to outside 55c, so I give another 5c for error so about your temps in F after hard riding.

What was your max volt amp settings when this happened?

Sorry for stealing ur thread LightingRod

No def NOT A big block! It's a BOMA 2000 watt inrunner. They are really cheap Chinese motors and not particularly well wound. It was cheap ($140) and pushed my 240 pounds and 120 pound scooter at 45mph just fine until it blew up suddenly. They have loose windings in them. I think vibration and magnetic feild changes caused the windings to rub against each other and wore the insulation off the wires which created this massive meltdown. I'll rewind it with 3 or 4 strands of 14 awg wire to the same Kv as before. It was a pretty strong motor despite its winding flaws. I think with a rewind it will be even stronger than factory. The higher copper density per tooth will help that out.

I am running on 20S LION...so 78 volts and 40 amps...3000 watts when it blew up. I wasn't hitting it hard. I had just looked at my temps and it was 124F and then jumped to 200F when it died.

This is it drilled out for a blower into those holes. Without forced air it would run 150F just going 20mph. IMHO...that's OK for full out, but barely getting to half of full speed...no way! The heat sinks helped a good bit too. I could see 5-10F decrease with them on the motor. With the blower and heat sinks I was running at 115-125F nearly all the time and that while pulling 3000-4000 watts. This motor would run at 150F at close to 5000 watts with cooling. I expect a big block will run similar temps and wattage without active cooling.

This the 1500 watt version, but the 2000 watt version looks just like it.

 

[ElectricGod]

I have both big blocks and small blocks available. I let my inventory get thin at the end of the year because I get taxed on it. If I'm not real quick ordering in the new year the Chinese go on vacation and won't talk to me for a month. We should have a steady supply of both motors for the rest of this year.

Cool I want a 3000 watt ASAP! Once I have a motor, I have to adapt it to my scooter...do sprockets...bracket...etc.

 

[LightningRods]

One of these days (soon) I'm going to have to build a suitable test rig and see what the big block will do steady state and burst power. The small block has been run up to 5000 watts burst so the big block with twice the rotor and stator? Building a bicycle that won't fold in half is the first step.

 

[ElectricGod]

One of these days (soon) I'm going to have to build a suitable test rig and see what the big block will do steady state and burst power. The small block has been run up to 5000 watts burst so the big block with twice the rotor and stator? Building a bicycle that won't fold in half is the first step.

How long were you able to hold the small block at 5000 watts? I imagine it got quite warm. What would you say is its continuous maximum wattage?

Testing the big block...I'll test one. I have access to a dyno and can run as high as 10000 watts. Surely the big block can't run continuous at that much wattage? I would be testing on a moped so the frame is already much tougher than any bicycle. I'm currently using t8f chain and sprockets, but that will get changed to 219 soon.

 

[LightningRods]

Another Endless-Spherian ran the small block up to 100V 50A climbing hills. I thought that was too much. Another user chimed in and said that it would do 60 amp bursts. A lot of this becomes heresay. One of my customers that I trust as being honest about his claims ran his small block at 100V 40A continuous pulling his daughter on a sled. I honestly have no idea what the big block will do before it starts to get hot. I wouldn't expect it to be twice the small block just because it has twice the rotor and stator.

 

[John Bozi]

One of these days (soon) I'm going to have to build a suitable test rig and see what the big block will do steady state and burst power. The small block has been run up to 5000 watts burst so the big block with twice the rotor and stator? Building a bicycle that won't fold in half is the first step.

I might presume too much, that you would only test the motor? so I apologize in advance for my early morning rant if you would test the whole kit.

A lightning rods mid drive kit should be considered as one unit. We already are happy with the motor and its strength to deal with heat.
Obviously you are not a big company with the resources of one, so nobody would expect rigorous testing to the levels of one either. In that context, I don't really think more information of what the motor can do in isolation is of much use to the people coming to this thread looking for lightning Rods mid drive kit information, compared to serious component of all the parts connected to it.

If you were a bigger enough company we could fancifully suggest:

When doing tests it included the exact kit specs that ran it and Km before part failure. The motor itself should not be the listed spec of continuous power, if all the bits supplied with it as a unit are not included in the testing. That would include which jackshaft, freewheel, which BB, which tensioning system... etc.
This is the crucial information to what power the version a person is buying is actually capable of sustaining and a realistic longevity.

(this is not about the end users half of things SM might mention)

Fortunately as the great designer you are, you keep modding up weak points, but unfortunately the kit test data would then need redoing.... this is where huge costs would increase exponentially.

It may then be beneficial to add versions. Like: Big block version with a spec sheet history a potential customer could access by date. Example:

Big 16/4

dicta, 12mm solid cro mo shaft cir clip, screws on inside of 2mm mild steel,

tested to 3kw 1000 km before freewheel failure, shaft distortion, etc.

etc.

But I don't see too many small DIY companies being able to sustain that kind of research unless it were a simple unit like a hub motor. The LR is not. Unless the whole kit is seen as a unit the same way a hub motor is seen as a complete unit, I don't see much point in "testing".

This does sound over the top but you know and we all know we compare things.

If I am being a bit airy fairy here...

For example we say this hub motor, let's say the MXUS v3 3kw. It is a complete distinct unit. Potential customers scratch their heads "should I buy this or that...." When people say it (mxus) can do 3kw cont. and I got 5000 km out of it before I replaced the bearings for example. And then we can compare that to the complete unit of LR Big block 3kw 16/4.

Then we have some useful information to compare in debates like a mid drive is better than a hub motor.
I would love to see a ton of rehashed mythology by people who have not run both put to rest (or proven to be fact)

Some simplistic perpetuated myths which purposefully forget the difference between low power and high power (3+kw):

a high powered mid drive is better because it uses the bicycle drive train with gears. (how many km did you get?)
a high powered mid drive is better because the motor weight is sprung. (Overlooking compression of suspension under load and myriad of other problems such as twisting the swingarm as power pulls only to one side.)

I would look forward to that data but doubt it would ever come.

Justin seems like the only one in this field being able to do this sort of thing.... He might have a more economical system to try?

or if buyers had a separate thread here where the data was compiled at least roughly...

Anyway I always enjoy reading this thread all "500" pages of it. 8)

 

[LightningRods]

I started out trying to make a "500 watt" $400 Chinese mid drive run at 1,000 watts without self destructing. Something that it would not do as delivered. Three years later we are dealing with a motor twice that size and pushing 5,000 watts. The original design concept can't be modified enough to handle that power level.

Two things are on my mind right now: (1) How much power can we run though bicycle type gears and (2) What is the best way to run 3,000-5,000+ watts directly to the rear wheel, single speed? These are two completely different kinds of mid drives. While it's true that giving up multiple gears is giving up part of what's good about mid drives, it's also true that you still have better weight distribution than a hub motor, lower unsprung weight and so better rear suspension action with less wheel damage, the advantage of the torque multiplication from reduction gearing and better heat dissipation. More than enough good reasons to keep the motor out of the wheels.

The first high powered single speed drive will be for the Qulbix. Racing kart chain all the way straight from the motor to the rear wheel in two stages. The bicycle gears will be a completely separate system, just as with a hub motor. Riders will also have the option of using the optional footpegs with no chainwheel and having a lightweight electric motorcycle.

 

[John Bozi]

It is a noble history and bright future you are on.

To some extent, one of the types of data is real world riding and not theory. Sprung and centred weight is obviously better but I dont concede that it must be via the bb. nor does its value exceed that of power directly to the ground of the hub motors. What method would prove which is better?

I wish I could ride against my hub motor mate enough to be able to give say 10 x 20km off road mountain race. (better if there were many people and more races... ) I can't think of a better true test.

With conservative restrictions on $$$ spent say $4k and weight say 50kg.

That would put a lot of speculation out of things. spoke or rim damage and handling should be in perspective and not any worse than hub, pawl rachet, chainring sprocket, shaft key chain failure for example. The question is who would finish faster and if it at all. and yes you can go slow take a break do whatever you want to win.

We do something similar to this already and a lot of my videos of us both riding are rough test data.

You don't want to know the results to date.

your raptor might do better in this category...

 

[eride]

I've had a run of 20 sets of my upgraded brackets made. I am also going to offer other upgrade parts. I'm sure that there will be a lot of people playing with this motor. It's so much more powerful and much quieter than the original Cyclone planetary motor.

I have some finishing and countersinking to do and then this run of brackets is off to the plating shop to be hard black anodized.[/quote]

Tried to email and pm LR without luck. LR pls update me on what you offer for the 3000W Clyclone

 

[LightningRods]

I'm trying to finish up a beta version of these brackets with the actual spacers, standoffs and hardware for testing. I'm going to send it to someone that I trust for durability testing and possibly more development. I'm not rushing a solution for the Cyclone. Customers are already angry about what a POS the brackets are. I don't want to get any of that on me.

 

[Ecyclist]

These upgraded brackets look like they will do the job. How much are they?
Also, I'm a little confused. They have a LightningRod logos on them but they are not offered by Mike. :?

 

[LightningRods]

I designed these brackets and had them laser cut. They should do the job but need the correct hardware to resist the twisting that's tearing the stock brackets apart.

I'm not opposed to working on the Cyclone 3k motor but I just don't have time at this moment. Sending out parts that aren't completed is just going to cause problems.

 

[Ecyclist]

So, these are LightningRod brackets with additional hardware made by "eride" to improve the stiffness of the mount.
This is like international space station. Chinese, American and Scandinavian cooperation.

 

[spinningmagnets]

Eride simply posted a picture of the first Cyclone 3K prototype that Mike made. I'm sure eride will actually have some made up, but he did not post a pic of something that he has.

Why has Mike only made one set? I'm not surprised he wants to do a lot of severe endurance testing before selling that kit to the public (if he ever even decides to do that, no doubt bringing even more abuse towards him). Mike has done an incredible job over the last couple of years. Customers asked for a bigger motor so it could take more continuous and peak heat. Some customers have used that extra motor mass to apply sudden peaks of power, which has occasionally broken bicycle-grade driveline parts.

If you take the time to read through the last 100 pages, Mike has been incredibly patient. Many Chinese companies don't develop new products as long as the same old kit continues to sell. Also, it is well-known around here that many of the companies that sell ebike parts straight from China, do NOT respond after you buy a product.

So...now we find we have a guy who has pulled back the curtain, and showed everyone the ugly process of making ebike mid drive sausage. And then he improved it, and then he improved it again. He has risked thousands of dollars and countless hours on this part time business, with no guarantees that he would ever break even some day, much less make a profit.

Please forgive Mike if he isn't moving fast enough for you.

 

[eride]

So, these are LightningRod brackets with additional hardware made by "eride" to improve the stiffness of the mount.
This is like international space station. Chinese, American and Scandinavian cooperation.

I didnt do anything . Pic from LR's post on page 141 here in this thread
Thanks for the update LR and nothing to forgive SM. LR's work is second to none. That's why I asked in the first place. Didn't find further info here on E-S nor on LR's webpage. Besides, impatience is one of my strong sides

 

[Ecyclist]

So, Eride posted LightningRods' bracket photo as an intro to his own creation. I'm not sure if I would do that.
Spinningmagnets, I'm very well aware that you and Mike are the driving forces behind the mid-drive kits section of the Endless-sphere.
I also know that Mike put tons of time and effort to transform the Chinese Mickey Mouse kits into usable pieces of art.
All that work deserves a reward. I hope that Mike makes a buck or two in the process. It would be wrong if he didn't.

 

[eride]

So, Eride posted LightningRods' bracket as an intro to his own creation. I'm not sure if I would do that.

Ecyclist, read LR's post on page 141 here in this thread please? Like I said i'm not doing anything. It's means i'm not doing anything! All I did was asking LR if he would put some Cyclone brackets in production. That's it's!.

 

[Ecyclist]

I finally got it. It looks like I was confused after all. :?

 

[ElectricGod]

I can't wait to get my hands on a big block! They sound like they are solid.

 

[spinningmagnets]

I'd like to share some thoughts on system selection. If you have no throttle-ramping, you can really pop some wheelies with these kits, and depending on how many volts and amps you are using, it can definitely break bicycle parts. (this example assumes a chain and sprockets that are fairly new, and not worn). So...who would want to add a motor powerful enough to break the thing its designed to attach to?

In my mind, the best application for a big block is a long and steep hill climb, for two reasons. First, it has twice the heat absorption and shedding as the small-block, and second...because of that greater heat-shedding ability, it can drive a taller gear, allowing the rider to get to the top of the run faster.

I've driven over the the very steep Colorado mountains on interstate highway 70 several times in a vehicle with a 4-cylinder engine. The 4-cylinder is capable of 90-MPH on flat land (top gear is for fuel economy), but had to downshift from 4th to 3rd for most of the mountain crossing (55-MPH), On the steepest section, I had to put on my blinkers and downshift to 2nd gear (40-MPH) in order to maintain speed, and also to keep the coolant pump spinning fast enough to prevent the motor from overheating, but the plucky little 4-cylinder did the job several times, and I'm still driving it today.

Once I crossed those same mountains with a vehicle that had a 390 V8 (6.4L). It had low gearing in the differential, so top speed was 60-MPH. It never slowed down, never needed to downshift, and it never got hot...even on the steepest section. To be fair, it also only got 7 miles to a gallon crossing the Rockies. (you could pop popcorn on the amount of hot air coming off the enormous radiator, though)

Single-track is getting popular, that's where you ride up on trail on a long and steep mountain, turn around, and then roll down a high-speed roller coaster trail that is made for that. Its why "downhill" frames only have small chainrings. The only time you're pedaling is when you are grinding uphill, and smaller chainrings have higher ground clearance for crawling up and over obstacles. When you are traveling downhill at high speed, you are not pedaling, so no large chainrings required.

An LR small block will crawl up anything, if you set the bike in a smaller gear to keep the motor RPMs up, but if you want to get up that same hill faster? A taller rear wheel gear will need more torque to maintain speed, and the motor will need more heat-shedding to run continuously at that power level. This is where the big block shines, and it's why Mike has the option of temp sensors coupled with a Cycle Analyst.

Temperature monitoring and automatic amp-limiting allow the rider to determine how high of a gear (how fast) he can climb uphill. No two mountains are the same. If you like a lighter motor on the fast downhills, get a small-block, but...you will be limited on how fast you can climb the uphill portion. You can climb faster with a big block, but its a little heavier on the downhill. However, the mid-mount big block is miles ahead of a huge rear hubmotor when it comes to the feel of the ride one the bumps and jumps of a fast downhill...

If you want to take a big block to a flat dragstrip and race a Cromotor when the light turns green? it will break the bicycle portion of the drivetrain, unless you run a single-speed with #35, #219, or #420 chain, solid sprocket on the rear wheel with no derailleur (The jackshaft has a freewheel, but its spinning faster than the wheel, so the torque is more spread out).

 

[LightningRods]

I'm working on the #219 direct drive right now.

 

[Marin]

Mr. magnets I like your style, thanks for a great read.

My Luna with big block is about to enter the testing phase, I'm going to be pretty gentle to start.

 

[spinningmagnets]

It's my understanding that there are a couple of high-power 2-speed transmissions in development, but I don't expect there to be much posted about them until their peak load and endurance testing is complete due to the kind of static that has occasionally occurred.