Mid drive chain efficiency and longevity tips

[Diggs]

Riding thru one good rain and the wax is gone

Really? I don't ride in the rain much but I've been caught in a few rainstorms and I didn't think it bothered my waxed chain at all. After all, wax repels water very well.

 

[lnanek]

My waxed chain definitely squeaks after riding it in the rain. Rusts too if I don't take care of it immediately after getting home.

 

[scianiac]

While I think the type of wax does have an effect on how well it stays on the surface, as previously discussed in this thread that is an advantage of the microcrystalline wax. I don't see a how the wax is getting washed out from inside the chain. On the outside with a basic wax sure. I do wish there was a better DIY wax in solvent for reapplication after extreme conditions but I have yet to find one that works. That and I aim to make it not happen in the first place.

Mine used to get a little surface rust on the outside with previous wax versions, I haven't added the uC wax yet but I did add a pretty high dose of a potent corrosion inhibitor and since I have not seen any rust. After all how these corrosion inhibitors work is like soap but for metal. One side of the molecule bonds strongly to oil and the other side bonds strongly to metal so it sticks your wax to the steel.

At this point I don't want to throw out the wax I have and it's enough to last me forever so not sure if I just keep adding stuff, maybe throw in some uC wax and WS2 on top of what's in there?

 

[glennb]

Can't see any harm in adding, it's not like you're going to inadvertently synthesize nitro glycerin.

I'm waiting for you guinea pigs to invent and agree on an indisputable ideal formula for me to copy. Hurry up already please, more experiments, more rigorous testing.

 

[lnanek]

Tempting to start making some. Neither the hot melt wax I use:

Amazon.com

Nor the drip wax:

Amazon.com: SILCA Super Secret 2.0 Bike Chain Lube, 3.38 oz - Liquid Chain Wax to Clean, Smooth & Silence - Ultra Fast Bike Lube - Special Formula for Friction Reduction & Improved Wattage Output in All Weather : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com: SILCA Super Secret 2.0 Bike Chain Lube, 3.38 oz - Liquid Chain Wax to Clean, Smooth & Silence - Ultra Fast Bike Lube - Special Formula for Friction Reduction & Improved Wattage Output in All Weather : Sports & Outdoors

a.co

Mention rust prevention additives. I admit I could buy more expensive chains with some rust prevention coating, though. Or be better about cleaning after wet rides.

 

[BlueSwordM]

While I think the type of wax does have an effect on how well it stays on the surface, as previously discussed in this thread that is an advantage of the microcrystalline wax. I don't see a how the wax is getting washed out from inside the chain. On the outside with a basic wax sure. I do wish there was a better DIY wax in solvent for reapplication after extreme conditions but I have yet to find one that works. That and I aim to make it not happen in the first place.

Mine used to get a little surface rust on the outside with previous wax versions, I haven't added the uC wax yet but I did add a pretty high dose of a potent corrosion inhibitor and since I have not seen any rust. After all how these corrosion inhibitors work is like soap but for metal. One side of the molecule bonds strongly to oil and the other side bonds strongly to metal so it sticks your wax to the steel.

At this point I don't want to throw out the wax I have and it's enough to last me forever so not sure if I just keep adding stuff, maybe throw in some uC wax and WS2 on top of what's in there?

Well, it's rather simple: the particulates suspend in water will wear away the wax more quickly than dust by itself.

If you mainly want a more waterproof longer lasting wax treatment, here's my simple recipe:
- 90% fully refined paraffin wax + 10% microcrystalline wax

More complex:
- 85% fully refined paraffin wax + 10% microcrystalline wax + 5% polyethylene wax

My full recipe:
- 84% fully refined paraffin wax + 10% microcrystalline wax + 5% polyethylene wax + 1% WS2 powder.

Honestly though, just get Silca Super Secret Blend + 1 puck of the wax additive and it'll be good enough.

 

[scianiac]

Can't see any harm in adding, it's not like you're going to inadvertently synthesize nitro glycerin.

I'm waiting for you guinea pigs to invent and agree on an indisputable ideal formula for me to copy. Hurry up already please, more experiments, more rigorous testing.

I mean technically some lubricant additives start to compete in adverse ways. I don't know if I'm there yet but I would do things slightly differently. For instance mine has a ZDDP additive that came in a oil carrier. Which back before a lot of the wax stuff was figured out that made more sense, the oil does soften the wax a little and make it flake less but it's not the ideal way to do it. And while I think ZDDP does have some advantages, I'm not so sure.

ZDDP performs extremely well with loose tolerances because it builds a comparably thick and sort of spongy layer and bonds well to the metal. So in a chain we have a fair amount of slop unlike say a roller bearing. The issue is this action works great at high temperatures but at room temp I've seen mixed research, it seems that it still does work with enough pressure. And this layer also seems to trap the teflon and hold it in place which works nicely.

Teflon's issue is that is offers low friction but only moderate pressure. That being said teflon and something like MoS2 or WS2 also can work well together because those layer structures those don't do anything at low pressures where the teflon shines and vise versa. In a chain though maybe we don't care so much and it's all about that extreme pressure. You have to remember the actual surface area inside the chain that bears all the load is tiny.

I do think the current production waxes are often too heavily optimized for high performance roadie use. So they focus on friction super heavily but less so on raw durability in harsh conditions. Hence they don't seem to add corrosion inhibitors even though these are super common in industrial lubricants. If you go watch the Applied Science video on it, it looks like witchcraft.

Related to applications for waxing I recently waxed a 219 chain and I'm curious to see how it works. I don't see why it wouldn't, I assume if you spin a chain fast enough you melt the wax but then again the oil is always liquid. I don't think I'll be spinning it that fast however and the freezing conditions it will be operating in will probably have an effect.

I also have a theory that a well waxed chain is slightly quieter, assuming you still have enough wax in there. In addition to the microscopic cushion the EP additives add the wax also cushions the motion of the chain more than oil. Still nothing like rubber idlers, I just made some rubber idlers for my bike and it's soo much quieter.

Well, it's rather simple: the particulates suspend in water will wear away the wax more quickly than dust by itself.

If you mainly want a more waterproof longer lasting wax treatment, here's my simple recipe:
- 90% fully refined paraffin wax + 10% microcrystalline wax

More complex:
- 85% fully refined paraffin wax + 10% microcrystalline wax + 5% polyethylene wax

My full recipe:
- 82% fully refined paraffin wax + 10% microcrystalline wax + 5% polyethylene wax + 1% WS2 powder.

Honestly though, just get Silca Super Secret Blend + 1 puck of the wax additive and it'll be good enough.

I do so want to add some some uC wax and/or PE wax to mine. Considering just picking up a silca endurance chip to drop in which I assume might be just PE wax?

 

[BlueSwordM]

I do so want to add some some uC wax and/or PE wax to mine. Considering just picking up a silca endurance chip to drop in which I assume might be just PE wax?

Yeah, the Silca Endurance chip is just better.

I suspect the Silca Endurance chip has paraffin wax with a unusually high proportion of uC wax and PE wax.

 

[raylo32]

And/or get a Wippermann stainless steel chain, which will be way better at resisting corrosion. I have used plenty of these for a long time and they work well and shift fine with Shimano gear, at least.

Tempting to start making some. Neither the hot melt wax I use:

Amazon.com

Nor the drip wax:

Amazon.com: SILCA Super Secret 2.0 Bike Chain Lube, 3.38 oz - Liquid Chain Wax to Clean, Smooth & Silence - Ultra Fast Bike Lube - Special Formula for Friction Reduction & Improved Wattage Output in All Weather : Sports & Outdoors

Amazon.com: SILCA Super Secret 2.0 Bike Chain Lube, 3.38 oz - Liquid Chain Wax to Clean, Smooth & Silence - Ultra Fast Bike Lube - Special Formula for Friction Reduction & Improved Wattage Output in All Weather : Sports & Outdoors

a.co

Mention rust prevention additives. I admit I could buy more expensive chains with some rust prevention coating, though. Or be better about cleaning after wet rides.

 

[raylo32]

What about adding a spalsh of this stuff to the mix?

MaxWax, 32 oz. | West Marine

Check out our MaxWax, 32 oz. and more from West Marine!

www.westmarine.com

 

[glennb]

Don't suppose anyone plans to make a test rig?

Never going to get to the bottom of which formulation reigns supreme without empirical testing, which can't realistically be performed on a bicycle.

Presumably corrosion resistance can be treated as a secondary and independent concern, and the primary variable of interest is wear rate.

To that end, all that's required is cycling the chain under load. I.e. run it under tension back and forth over a sprocket many many times.

For load, a suspended weight would suffice, with sprocket being the pulley. Little worm drive to power the rig, or save energy and accomplish excercise by repurposing excercise equipment*.

Could split a chain in three and have three independent equal weights, to test three formations concurrently.

* cable operated home gym isn't necessarily the ideal candidate due to typical high load and low reps. Something like 500 strokes on a rowing trainer (20 minutes) every day might be preferable.

 

[glennb]

Come to think of it, could compare formulations by running two on "one" chain I.e. split the chain in half*, soak each section in different formulation, then join back together with quick links.

*not precisely in half, best to have different link count for each section to easily distinguish them.

Issues would be cross-contamination, and chainring wear (would need to be steel chainring). Still, the method could yield useful data.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

W

Never going to get to the bottom of which formulation reigns supreme without empirical testing, which can't realistically be performed on a bicycle.

the dirty world of the bicycle has to be included.

 

[glennb]

Ultimately, of course. But a formula needs to walk before it can run. Idea would be to first establish which anti-wear chemicals work best, then figure out what best sticks them to the chain, then what needs adding to prevent it washing off in the rain. Something along those lines.

 

[hillslayer@]

I have ran chains thousands of miles on a mid-drive with no wear showing on them using just Gulf wax. This proves all the additives are BS.

 

[Hummina Shadeeba]

I have ran chains thousands of miles on a mid-drive with no wear showing on them using just Gulf wax. This proves all the additives are BS. For sure after thousands of miles it’s worn. I feel like they statement could apply to belts

Your chain sounds like a belt

 

[scianiac]

Don't suppose anyone plans to make a test rig?

I mean there are several people already doing this but it's a lot of work and so while some is done to test ingredients a lot is now also done to test formulas for companies. If I was going to put in enough effort to get accurate results I would be doing it with some hope of maybe paying off my expense, time and effort.

I have ran chains thousands of miles on a mid-drive with no wear showing on them using just Gulf wax. This proves all the additives are BS.

It proves that wax is very good, I mean you can see ZF's testing straight candle wax ran to 6000km beating all the wet and dry lubes. But the additive waxes went to 15000-30000km. It depends a lot on the conditions as well. Weirdly a middrive is probably easier in some cases, may be the same power as a sprinting human legs but that power doesn't come in short pulses that push the chain tension high enough to push through the lubricant boundary layer.

 

[lnanek]

Presumably corrosion resistance can be treated as a secondary and independent concern, and the primary variable of interest is wear rate.

You'd think that, but people claim plated chains, which are the usual way to avoid rust, can interfere with wax adhesion. I admit I never thought of trying stainless steel, though. Will buy one instead of the usual cheapo KMC stuff I get next. So if the goal of a good wax is long term longevity, not using plated chains or an anti-rust additive could negate the whole reason for adding them - maybe more so for people who live is moist areas or near the sea.

I might be able to fix a rusty chain anyway. Supposedly it's just on the surface. A wire wheel or rust converter spray or marine jelly? Seems too much work, though. I don't want to ride them either since they make a funny tinking sound that embarrasses me around other cyclists who know what it is. So rust is an immediate DQ for a chain for me.

Zero friction cycling does a lot of tests, but gets endless flak for not being scientific about it. E.g. people complain he has multiple bikes with auto-pedaling motors setup instead of one, etc.. Some of his results show such big differences it's tough to believe inconsistent test fixtures matter, though. The magnitude of error from that seems like it would be less than the magnitude of the difference due to the product.

 

[raylo32]

Interestingly, Wippermann now sells chains pre-waxed from the factory with never having been greased at all, at least with 12-speed versions, in several color options. But I am not sure of any of these are truly stainless steel. Some are nickel plated, the gold ones are brass plated, etc. And Wippermann sells their own brand of wax that is PTFE free and contains "SCA" anti-wear additives.

Bike chains by gear type

No matter which component system you use – Connex offers bike chains for every component system in premium quality.

connexchain.com

reseller: 12 Speed Chains

 

[Diggs]

trying stainless steel

Rust free stainless (presumably 300 series i.e.. austenitic "surgical" stainless) is relatively soft and gummy as far as metals go and cannot be hardened and can't really be used for a chain application. 400 series stainless (martensitic) can be heat treated and is much harder and more durable and might work for chains but will rust to some degree also. (sorry - couldn't suppress my past manufacturing knowledgebase... heh)

 

[raylo32]

From Wippermann for the 12SE version... Obviously, they will be using a SS alloy and heat treatment with the requisite hardness. They also make many industrial chains with similar materials.

Structural MaterialStainless Steel Inner Links & Rollers: The inner plates and rollers are constructed from premium stainless steel. This provides exceptional structural strength to tolerate aggressive mid-drive motor torque shifts while providing immense long-term protection against inner link wear. [1] (12 Speed Chains), [2] (Wippermann Connex 12S0 12-Speed Chain), [3] (Connex 12SE Bicycle Chain 126 Link 12-Speed Stainless Rollers and Inner Links Nickel Plate)

 

[glennb]

I mean there are several people already doing this but it's a lot of work and so while some is done to test ingredients a lot is now also done to test formulas for companies. If I was going to put in enough effort to get accurate results I would be doing it with some hope of maybe paying off my expense, time and effort.

ok, so test rigs may be too much bother, and are only a preliminary step to identifying suitable ingredients in any case, after which real world testing is still required.

So, skip all that and test in situ. This necessitates controlling variables via concurrent parallel testing. Since load sharing would equalise wear, this can only be accomplished by a sectioned chain (as opposed to testing with two independent chains).

Testing can be a simple last man standing head to head elimination format, as follows:

Apply formulas A and B and ride as per usual. Measure for wear occasionally. As soon as one section indicates any degree of wear, stop the test and bin the chain. Assuming it was B that wore, bin that formula. Repeat with fresh chain, this time with formulas A and C. Each time, the winner gets another run against a different opponent, until there's a champion.

To expedite the testing, consider using cheap nasty chain so that wear becomes apparent within a short time, and/or using three or even four sections at a time.

The champion formulation can be bottled and marketed as "Highlander" brand lube. You'll make a fortune.

Surely someone here has the gumption to undertake this type of testing.

Is that Zamban's hand I see going up?

 

[scianiac]

Corrosion is probably all about conditions.

I wonder if the material hardness is less important as the lubricant is better. After all a good lubricant's job is to prevent the materials from making contact at all. So if you have harsh conditions stainless + good wax is much better than stainless + lube. That being said for max longevity coated chains where you start with a super hard material and then you cover it in an ever more wear resistant and corrosion resistant material and then you add a lubricant that does it's best to prevent you from even needing those.

At some point though it's all pointless, chains are cheap. I just want low maintenance and easy use. So a single shot high performance wax on a decent quality chain. Means one and done, no mess, don't have to think about it. It doesn't need to last a decade, for how much I ride the bikes that use the chain it doesn't matter.

The champion formulation can be bottled and marketed as "Highlander" brand lube. You'll make a fortune.

You are just describing what high end wax brands already do, this assumes you can come up with a blend that is better than what already exists. Which is probably possible but it will be a lot of work to find it and then you have to do all the marketing to get anybody to believe you. Trust me I've been down this road several times. Yes it's possible and it's sooooo much more work than you think to empirically test and make a product that is better than everyone else. And when you do then you just sit around and watch as competitors sell more than you by just making shit up and spending money on marketing.

I literally have top level competitive users who swear my product is the best they've tested and they use it but cover up the branding because they are sponsored by my competitor who's logo is plastered all over their jersey. That is not some insider super secret thing, like they aren't claiming be using the other product and occasionally even mention me when asked about it or show them. But it's just how the game works.

 

[Zambam]

Surely someone here has the gumption to undertake this type of testing.

Is that Zamban's hand I see going up?

Not what you're looking for: My KMC Z8 chain TSDZ2 mid drive since new on Candle+ uC wax+WS2 has 1700 miles currently with no wear per my TL-2.8 chain wear gauge (0.25).