new cyclone 3000 w mid-drive kit?

[gman1971]

Anyone who has taken the motor apart does happen to know the size of the bearings for the C3000W motor?

Thanks.

G.

 

[robocam]

I have a 2015 GNG belt-driven mid drive, and the Cyclone is more than twice as powerful. It will blow your mind. And I'm only running mine at 52V.

Hey guys
I have a standard GNG mid drive on my bike.
Would the 3000w motor be a huge upgrade or just a minor one?

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman1971 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:24 pm

Anyone who has taken the motor apart does happen to know the size of the bearings for the C3000W motor?

The left cap bearing number is C & U 6201RZ

OD = 1.260"

ID = 0.472"

Thickness = 0.396"

The Right side number is C&U SA6203RSL

OD = 1.575"

ID = 0.668"

Thickness = 0.473"

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman1971 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:14 pm

Nice solution, I assume this is for a 7spd drivetrain?

SunRace makes an 11-42T all steel cassette, but for 10spd... I've had good luck with that one.

G.

I seem to not have enough space for 7 speeds with the change out to 3 somewhat thicker steel rings with spacers & clutchers made from the 26T cog rings than the space of the steel rings of the Sunrace 42 and their scant spacers. Six speeds seems okay so far as I can always use the bigger front ring for downhill pavement.

I doubt whether these big steel rings will soon bend.

I've had good luck with that one.

I have had 3 of the Sunrace all steel 42 - 11 10 speeds and recall the second biggest cog usually getting severely bent. On one occasion[in the field] we were able the straighten [flatten] the bent ring while on the cassette using 2 snug Crescent wrenches enough to continue using that ring and making shifts to & from it.

 

[ebike11]

I have a 2015 GNG belt-driven mid drive, and the Cyclone is more than twice as powerful. It will blow your mind. And I'm only running mine at 52V.

Hey guys
I have a standard GNG mid drive on my bike.
Would the 3000w motor be a huge upgrade or just a minor one?

Sorry if you have already.posted but do you have any videos in action?

 

[robocam]

Nope, I don't. I don't think a video would show much though. The Cyclone's controller draws 43A, and the GNG controller draws 21A. The Cyclone also feels a lot more powerful per amp given the same voltage. I tried the GNG on the Cyclone controller. The belt promptly snapped, but when it worked, it was fun, but not as fun as the Cyclone. The Cyclone is insanely powerful. There's just no comparison.

Which GNG do you have? If you have the chain-driven one, you could just get a Cyclone controller. This will probably be the cheapest way to get a taste. Or if you don't climb a steep hill off-road, you can use the belt-driven one. Just make sure you have a lot of spare belts. They're cheap on eBay.

https://lunacycle.com/motors-and-kits/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/40-amp-48-72v-ebike-controller/

Here's the 20mm-wide belt for the 2015. Don't know how good it is, but it's cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/475-5M-HTD-Timing-Belt-95-Teeth-Cogged-Rubber-Geared-Closed-Loop-20mm-Wide-/141543321215

I have a 2015 GNG belt-driven mid drive, and the Cyclone is more than twice as powerful. It will blow your mind. And I'm only running mine at 52V.

Hey guys
I have a standard GNG mid drive on my bike.
Would the 3000w motor be a huge upgrade or just a minor one?

Sorry if you have already.posted but do you have any videos in action?

 

[gman1971]

Wow, then you really must be going nuts with the off road... I've never bent the cogs... even going all out on accelerations etc, then the chainline is dead straight on the 36T cog for me as it is where I usually pivot around...

Thanks for the bearing measurements.

G.

gman1971 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:14 pm

Nice solution, I assume this is for a 7spd drivetrain?

SunRace makes an 11-42T all steel cassette, but for 10spd... I've had good luck with that one.

G.

I seem to not have enough space for 7 speeds with the change out to 3 somewhat thicker steel rings with spacers & clutchers made from the 26T cog rings than the space of the steel rings of the Sunrace 42 and their scant spacers. Six speeds seems okay so far as I can always use the bigger front ring for downhill pavement.

I doubt whether these big steel rings will soon bend.

I've had good luck with that one.

I have had 3 of the Sunrace all steel 42 - 11 10 speeds and recall the second biggest cog usually getting severely bent. On one occasion[in the field] we were able the straighten [flatten] the bent ring while on the cassette using 2 snug Crescent wrenches enough to continue using that ring and making shifts to & from it.

 

[robocam]

Have you tried any of the expander cogs by Wolftooth or Oneup?

...I have had 3 of the Sunrace all steel 42 - 11 10 speeds and recall the second biggest cog usually getting severely bent. On one occasion[in the field] we were able the straighten [flatten] the bent ring while on the cassette using 2 snug Crescent wrenches enough to continue using that ring and making shifts to & from it.

 

[gman1971]

I usually don't talk about fight club, I mean, GNG mid drives, but when I do, its not to say good things about them.... as I had one for a short while, it was a GNG 2016 and it was pretty bad, borderline utter crap; it was 22A max, but it was slow compared to the Cyclone by a huge margin, even the Cyclone running on 48V would draw rings around it, in terms of reliability and power. Range was better on the GNG due to running 22A vs 40A max on the unmodded C3000W controller. But anyone here thinks the c3000W mounting solution is bad, then you haven't tried a GNG... worthless... it used a clutched bearing, which also failed, so motor wouldn't engage... and the shaft was so thin it cracked at the end bearings... suffice to say the motor was smashed with a sledgehammer and sent back to the recycling center so that aluminum can be turned into something more useful.

Avoid GNG, get a Cyclone 3000W, you won't regret it. I think some ppl here have abused the snot out of it and it has worked well, with usually the bike components failing and not the kit itself...

G.

I have a 2015 GNG belt-driven mid drive, and the Cyclone is more than twice as powerful. It will blow your mind. And I'm only running mine at 52V.

Hey guys
I have a standard GNG mid drive on my bike.
Would the 3000w motor be a huge upgrade or just a minor one?

Sorry if you have already.posted but do you have any videos in action?

 

[gman1971]

Sooo... do you also happen to have the planetary gear bearing dimensions too?

I am probably going to replace all the the motor bearings at 10k miles, which is fast approaching....

G.

gman1971 » Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:24 pm

Anyone who has taken the motor apart does happen to know the size of the bearings for the C3000W motor?

The left cap bearing number is C & U 6201RZ

OD = 1.260"

ID = 0.472"

Thickness = 0.396"

The Right side number is C&U SA6203RSL

OD = 1.575"

ID = 0.668"

Thickness = 0.473"

 

[ebike11]

Nope, I don't. I don't think a video would show much though. The Cyclone's controller draws 43A, and the GNG controller draws 21A. The Cyclone also feels a lot more powerful per amp given the same voltage. I tried the GNG on the Cyclone controller. The belt promptly snapped, but when it worked, it was fun, but not as fun as the Cyclone. The Cyclone is insanely powerful. There's just no comparison.

Which GNG do you have? If you have the chain-driven one, you could just get a Cyclone controller. This will probably be the cheapest way to get a taste. Or if you don't climb a steep hill off-road, you can use the belt-driven one. Just make sure you have a lot of spare belts. They're cheap on eBay.

https://lunacycle.com/motors-and-kits/mid-drive-kits/cyclone-mid-drive/40-amp-48-72v-ebike-controller/

Here's the 20mm-wide belt for the 2015. Don't know how good it is, but it's cheap.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/475-5M-HTD-Timing-Belt-95-Teeth-Cogged-Rubber-Geared-Closed-Loop-20mm-Wide-/141543321215

I have a 2015 GNG belt-driven mid drive, and the Cyclone is more than twice as powerful. It will blow your mind. And I'm only running mine at 52V.

Hey guys
I have a standard GNG mid drive on my bike.
Would the 3000w motor be a huge upgrade or just a minor one?

Sorry if you have already.posted but do you have any videos in action?

I have the chain GNG model along with Cyclone 3 chainring and ISIS BB
So youre saying that the lack of power is due to the controllers? I know there are differences between the motors but as you mentioned, to get a taste, I should swap controllers frst?

 

[DingusMcGee]

More Clearance:

The six speed cassette was refitted to make room for 8 speeds. By using smaller cog spacers and replacing the binding bolts that were used to hold the big three rings together with roll pins. The roll pins were ground off flat on both chainring faces.

View attachment 2



Here were see the 8 speed 48T cassette mounted on the Big Hit edirtbike.



I have the spacing more than needed between the smallest black chainrings and the silver cog set because there was not the right size spacer for this crossover in my collection. Shimano cogs are very hard steel and are thicker than the Sunrace Cogs. And as one would expect the Shimano spacers are smaller than the Sunrace spacers. The 26T Sunrace cog is narrower than the SRAM 26T and Shimano 26T cogs. Using the narrower Sunrace cog for the 3 clutcher/spacers may free up enough space on the cassette cartridge to make the cassette a 9 speed.

The cog used are 48T, 44T, 36T, 30T, 23T, 20T, 17T and 13T. And of course the unit is heavier than an aluminum one. Some hole drilling would lighten this Bertha.

 

[robocam]

What voltage are you running it at? Yes, you should definitely try the Cyclone controller. It will put a huge smile on your face. You'll basically have double the power. I can't wait to hear about it. Let me know if you need any help wiring it. What chainring teethcounts do you have on your crankset?

I have the chain GNG model along with Cyclone 3 chainring and ISIS BB
So youre saying that the lack of power is due to the controllers? I know there are differences between the motors but as you mentioned, to get a taste, I should swap controllers frst?

 

[DingusMcGee]

gman,

Sooo... do you also happen to have the planetary gear bearing dimensions too?

Those planetary bearing are greasy as Hell ileuia -- blue grease and stuck in the nylon planet gears. I would strongly advise replacing the nylon gears and bearings if that is the material on your setup is nylon as some of the nylon teeth on mine have broken off and the assembly came to a screeching halt [on mud]. I was able to back up the bike and eventually get the bike to roll forward again. The planet assembly made a slightly louder whine with teeth missing. There were teeth missing on all three gears and parts of them were off on the side line of action but stuck in the blue grease globs.

But if you must have the dimensions I can clean one up.

As for grease, I used a synthetic Milwaukee tool grease so there would be less friction come the low temps of winter.

 

[ebike11]

What voltage are you running it at? Yes, you should definitely try the Cyclone controller. It will put a huge smile on your face. You'll basically have double the power. I can't wait to hear about it. Let me know if you need any help wiring it. What chainring teethcounts do you have on your crankset?

I have the chain GNG model along with Cyclone 3 chainring and ISIS BB
So youre saying that the lack of power is due to the controllers? I know there are differences between the motors but as you mentioned, to get a taste, I should swap controllers frst?

I have a 72V pack but the max speed i can get from the gng is about 45 to 50kph on flat roads. This is also with a 45A greentime controller
I think the chainrings are 48T 44T 44T

 

[robocam]

Oh, I thought you had the stock GNG controller. Have you measured the actual current of your controller? If it is indeed 45A, then the Cyclone controller will not make it more powerful. What size are your wheels? What I can tell you is that the Cyclone at 72V can easily get you to 80km/h and faster. What's the BMS current limit of your battery?

What voltage are you running it at? Yes, you should definitely try the Cyclone controller. It will put a huge smile on your face. You'll basically have double the power. I can't wait to hear about it. Let me know if you need any help wiring it. What chainring teethcounts do you have on your crankset?

I have the chain GNG model along with Cyclone 3 chainring and ISIS BB
So youre saying that the lack of power is due to the controllers? I know there are differences between the motors but as you mentioned, to get a taste, I should swap controllers frst?

I have a 72V pack but the max speed i can get from the gng is about 45 to 50kph on flat roads. This is also with a 45A greentime controller
I think the chainrings are 48T 44T 44T

 

[ebike11]

Oh, I thought you had the stock GNG controller. Have you measured the actual current of your controller? If it is indeed 45A, then the Cyclone controller will not make it more powerful. What size are your wheels? What I can tell you is that the Cyclone at 72V can easily get you to 80km/h and faster. What's the BMS current limit of your battery?

What voltage are you running it at? Yes, you should definitely try the Cyclone controller. It will put a huge smile on your face. You'll basically have double the power. I can't wait to hear about it. Let me know if you need any help wiring it. What chainring teethcounts do you have on your crankset?

I have the chain GNG model along with Cyclone 3 chainring and ISIS BB
So youre saying that the lack of power is due to the controllers? I know there are differences between the motors but as you mentioned, to get a taste, I should swap controllers frst?

I have a 72V pack but the max speed i can get from the gng is about 45 to 50kph on flat roads. This is also with a 45A greentime controller
I think the chainrings are 48T 44T 44T

Hi
No bms at all..greentime controller is 45A according to the specs on the site
I have a 26mtb
Not sure why it isnt ovee 45kph

 

[robocam]

Yeah it seems like replacing the gears would be easier.

http://sickbikeparts.com/gears-planetary-gear-box-large-motor/

Someone recommended Mobil 28 for use with plastic gears since it won't react with the plastic, so I just bought a tube of this. I'm going to install a grease fitting on my Cyclone to make it easier to grease the gears whenever I want to. Grease makes it a lot quieter.

https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B06XH7XRTD

gman,

Sooo... do you also happen to have the planetary gear bearing dimensions too?

Those planetary bearing are greasy as Hell ileuia -- blue grease and stuck in the nylon planet gears. I would strongly advise replacing the nylon gears and bearings if that is the material on your setup is nylon as some of the nylon teeth on mine have broken off and the assembly came to a screeching halt [on mud]. I was able to back up the bike and eventually get the bike to roll forward again. The planet assembly made a slightly louder whine with teeth missing. There were teeth missing on all three gears and parts of them were off on the side line of action but stuck in the blue grease globs.

But if you must have the dimensions I can clean one up.

As for grease, I used a synthetic Milwaukee tool grease so there would be less friction come the low temps of winter.

 

[robocam]

Gman, you had the Gen 2 GNG right? The 2016 is a Lightningrod knockoff, probably the best GNG mid drive available but still not as good as a Cyclone.

https://www.electricbike.com/gng-gen2/

http://www.gngebike.com/36v350w-48v500w-2015-gen-2

This is what people think of when they hear GNG.

https://www.electricbike.com/gng/

This was the mid drive that made powerful mid drives affordable. BUT, now that the Cyclone is available, I can't think of any reason to buy any other mid drive that costs less than $2000 (unless you want silence, which then the BBSHD is your answer, not that the Cyclone is loud at all).

I usually don't talk about fight club, I mean, GNG mid drives, but when I do, its not to say good things about them.... as I had one for a short while, it was a GNG 2016 and it was pretty bad, borderline utter crap; it was 22A max, but it was slow compared to the Cyclone by a huge margin, even the Cyclone running on 48V would draw rings around it, in terms of reliability and power. Range was better on the GNG due to running 22A vs 40A max on the unmodded C3000W controller. But anyone here thinks the c3000W mounting solution is bad, then you haven't tried a GNG... worthless... it used a clutched bearing, which also failed, so motor wouldn't engage... and the shaft was so thin it cracked at the end bearings... suffice to say the motor was smashed with a sledgehammer and sent back to the recycling center so that aluminum can be turned into something more useful.

Avoid GNG, get a Cyclone 3000W, you won't regret it. I think some ppl here have abused the snot out of it and it has worked well, with usually the bike components failing and not the kit itself...

G.

 

[minimum]

Someone recommended Mobil 28 for use with plastic gears since it won't react with the plastic, so I just bought a tube of this. I'm going to install a grease fitting on my Cyclone to make it easier to grease the gears whenever I want to. Grease makes it a lot quieter.

A while ago I searched for plastic-safe rated greases:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87790&p=1282208#p1282208
All those are rated safe according to datasheets.

Basically anything with silicone and/or teflon are OK. Crude-oil based greases may still contain some solvent which gets un-trapped when working temperature gets high enough. And solvent makes nylon soft/weaker. Lithium-soap based are supposed to be OK too but it is extremely difficult to get info about additives (and their effect on nylon).

Electronics (-components) store are likely place to find plastics safe lubricants. I went with SMAR TF, made by AG TERMOPASTY, bought from local hobby/electronics shop. 20g jar seemed to be more than enough for gearbox, at least there was much more of it than factory green grease.

 

[DingusMcGee]

The roll pins did not work for holding the three big chainrings together tight when testing the cassette at the nearby hill climbs. I put solid 1/4"+ pins in the 1/4" holes and drilled out the 5/16" 104mm BCD holes to 25/64" so I could replace the 5/16" bolts with the longest fitting size of steel chainring bolts. I also worked over the spacing between cogs and was just able to fit the cassette with 9 cogs. The smaller six cog are quite easily exchanged.

 

[gman1971]

Someone recommended Mobil 28 for use with plastic gears since it won't react with the plastic, so I just bought a tube of this. I'm going to install a grease fitting on my Cyclone to make it easier to grease the gears whenever I want to. Grease makes it a lot quieter.

A while ago I searched for plastic-safe rated greases:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=87790&p=1282208#p1282208
All those are rated safe according to datasheets.

Basically anything with silicone and/or teflon are OK. Crude-oil based greases may still contain some solvent which gets un-trapped when working temperature gets high enough. And solvent makes nylon soft/weaker. Lithium-soap based are supposed to be OK too but it is extremely difficult to get info about additives (and their effect on nylon).

Electronics (-components) store are likely place to find plastics safe lubricants. I went with SMAR TF, made by AG TERMOPASTY, bought from local hobby/electronics shop. 20g jar seemed to be more than enough for gearbox, at least there was much more of it than factory green grease.

Speaking of lubing the motor... I've considered using ATF on the gearbox, b/x while I had the POS Gen2 GNG I had to seal and use ATF inside the motor to keep coil temps from melting b/c that thing was a total turd. ATF cut temps by almost half after my commute at sustained 900-1000W, the motor coils were around 140F using ATF, compared to almost 300F before... motor was substantially quieter too... but in the end the motor was a POS turd regardless of what lubricant you used...

The cyclone OTOH might be a great candidate to use ATF in the planetary gearbox to reduce friction and quiet it down... thoughts?

G.

 

[gman1971]

Dingus,

Wow.. didn't hold.... you say climbing hills? at what wattage? 100kW?? full throttle dumps from standing still while holding the brakes?? maybe trying to tow the space shuttle?? I need to know what the testing procedure is here so I can avoid doing that...

As for bearing measurement, thanks... but sounds like I am going to buy a set and replace the whole thing as Robocam suggested... the greasy mess is something I am not that fond of either... I still remember the days of daily fixing the POS GNG planetary gear stuff...

G.

The roll pins did not work for holding the three big chainrings together tight when testing the cassette at the nearby hill climbs. I put solid 1/4"+ pins in the 1/4" holes and drilled out the 5/16" 104mm BCD holes to 25/64" so I could replace the 5/16" bolts with the longest fitting size of steel chainring bolts. I also worked over the spacing between cogs and was just able to fit the cassette with 9 cogs. The smaller six cog are quite easily exchanged.

View attachment 2

View attachment 1

 

[gman1971]

Sadly, yes, I had the POS Gen2 ... I haven't heard good things about the LR either, so ig the GNG 2016 if its a cheap knock off I think ppl should stay away from those... get a cyclone, 380 bucks gets you going 40+ mph with ease.

G.

Gman, you had the Gen 2 GNG right? The 2016 is a Lightningrod knockoff, probably the best GNG mid drive available but still not as good as a Cyclone.

https://www.electricbike.com/gng-gen2/

http://www.gngebike.com/36v350w-48v500w-2015-gen-2

This is what people think of when they hear GNG.

https://www.electricbike.com/gng/

This was the mid drive that made powerful mid drives affordable. BUT, now that the Cyclone is available, I can't think of any reason to buy any other mid drive that costs less than $2000 (unless you want silence, which then the BBSHD is your answer, not that the Cyclone is loud at all).

I usually don't talk about fight club, I mean, GNG mid drives, but when I do, its not to say good things about them.... as I had one for a short while, it was a GNG 2016 and it was pretty bad, borderline utter crap; it was 22A max, but it was slow compared to the Cyclone by a huge margin, even the Cyclone running on 48V would draw rings around it, in terms of reliability and power. Range was better on the GNG due to running 22A vs 40A max on the unmodded C3000W controller. But anyone here thinks the c3000W mounting solution is bad, then you haven't tried a GNG... worthless... it used a clutched bearing, which also failed, so motor wouldn't engage... and the shaft was so thin it cracked at the end bearings... suffice to say the motor was smashed with a sledgehammer and sent back to the recycling center so that aluminum can be turned into something more useful.

Avoid GNG, get a Cyclone 3000W, you won't regret it. I think some ppl here have abused the snot out of it and it has worked well, with usually the bike components failing and not the kit itself...

G.

 

[gman1971]

Motor must be crap then, or cables might be paper thin and not capable of delivering the current, perhaps motor coils could be reaching "saturation" as in, more amps don't mean more torque anymore... you need more copper to take advantage of more amps, otherwise it will melt... or the motor is overgeared so you get great top end but crappy acceleration... or just do what I did, smash it with a hammer and buy a C3000W... best 380 bucks you'll spend on an eBike.

G.

I have the chain GNG model along with Cyclone 3 chainring and ISIS BB
So youre saying that the lack of power is due to the controllers? I know there are differences between the motors but as you mentioned, to get a taste, I should swap controllers frst?