new eZip motor

[latecurtis]

My first step would be hook up the lowest voltage battery I had to the motor. A shorted motor could take out controllers pretty quick.

If there were a short in the motor why would it only short under load ?

Also there is a fuse before the controller. A short should blow the fuse before damaging the controller correct ? Like I said earlier it is totally ridiculous.

The only fact that I have here is it only happens when under load. It still does NOT explain why there is no burnt smell or scorch marks on the controllers.

The original currie 24V controller was put under much heavier load and the motor went before the controller going up hills. Then the 36V controller I got afterwards ran until it caught on fire. It was abused over and over.

When breaking in SLA batteries the front tire was put against a wall and throttle engaged with the currie until the 10 AH SLAs were 100% discharged according to the Currie manual for breaking in the SLAs and these two controllers cant even operate on the flat to accelerate the bike with me sitting on it. I did not gain 300 or 400 pounds. I am still around 240 lbs. There really is no reasonable explanation for two burnt controllers.

Anyway thanks DA I will try to make the four wire throttle work on the 36V controller however I will not be able to run the LiPo packs as they are 22V. With no controller for 22V now the gearing will be much worse.

Gearing at 24V and 533W and 1834 rpm = 21.5 mph which is not that bad.

gearing at 36V and 800W and 2750 rpm = 32 mph which is not that good.

I will try using the four wire throttle but will need to order the 60 tooth wheel sprocket now for sure if I want to go up even a small hill. It will bring it down to 30 mph for an 800W motor. I already know 1,000 watts is required but should run better than gearing for 32 mph.

What I really need is someone smart enough to tell me what exactly is wrong with those controllers. What electrical component is blown and why did the fuse not blow instead. Please let me know what you think.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Well for 1 thing ...
A $10 POS controller will not hold up as well as a genuine $70 Currie replacement controller.

Another?
36V SLA battery will not draw more than the oem controllers rated 35A or drain below its 30-31V LVC, no matter how badly you try to abuse it

Fuse will only blow before the controller if the fuse is rated near the controllers rated amperage.
EG 35A fuse protecting a 30A controller ...

 

[latecurtis]

yes . the thing I think I regret most in my life is the fact that I did not finish college as I can remember the class where you can analyze a circuit board and determine which actual electrical component needs replacement.

I was originally going for electrical technology to figure out how to fix high end audio amplifiers. I was in it for the audio implications. I was a basss head. Not the sniffing king like in Slim shady (MNM) lyrics back in the day. I thought it meant the 18" isobaric subs I built back then. :lol:

I never got down to actual circuit board repair which is what is most important. Audio amplifiers as well as e bike controllers can be simply repaired.

Basically electric motors can be rewound also to the point where you can pick and choose the voltage , wattage , and rpm.

I really wish I could go back to school and learn those things.

LC out.

 

[DrkAngel]

$8-$14 controllers are usually not worth the cost and labor to repair.
Higher end controllers are often epoxy filled for optimal durability and heat transfer. (nearly impossible to repair)

Hand rewinding a motor requires a degree of patience and precision well beyond anything previously demonstrated.
Mechanical rewinding necessitates expensive machinery, cnc recommended, with skilled programmer-operator.

 

[ronnieb52]

Ah, he can do it.

 

[latecurtis]

My first step would be hook up the lowest voltage battery I had to the motor. A shorted motor could take out controllers pretty quick.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiZi8NDw8xk&feature=youtu.be

Taking into consideration that two controllers went down exactly the same way defiantly makes the 36V 800W motor suspect for a short however why does it only happen under load. the video clearly shows it fully operational and both controllers were tested the same way.

To be honest I don;t know if I want to hook up another controller to that motor. I am thinking about throwing out the motor and ordering a 24V controller for the 24V 500W Unite motor however the motor is rated at 2500 rpm @ 24V and 500W. this would make the gearing a nightmare.

A 500W motor geared for 29 mph! Not even worth hooking up so I am not sure if I should even keep the 56T spoke sprocket as there really is not any motor I know of which will work for it. The only thing I could do is order another 48V 1,000W motor like is on the 24" bike. Basically by some fluke that seems to work well at 500W and 1500 rpm.

Basically it is similar to what I told Doug who builds several bikes a month and always works with bent up wheels and always says he can do it by hand without a truing stand.
At the end of the month he ends up throwing out several frames as he finds bikes with good straight wheels and uses them to build bikes he can sell or trade for computer parts.

Motors and controllers are too much money to just throw out at the end of the day. Even if it is a $15 controller why keep hooking them up if they keep breaking. I just cannot justify taking this any further until I can find out exactly where the problem is. Is it in the motor or by some fluke I got two defective controllers.

The fact that the first one was hooked up backwards several times really don't mean that much as when it was hooked up correctly it worked just like the new one on the 24" bike. I do not believe electronic parts get comprised prior to failure. As far as I know they either work or not. Or are burned out or not not half way burned out and still working for awhile. Even if that theory holds up it wont explain the exact same thing happening to the new controller.

Basically until I can get some real straight answers to what is happening I do not wish to hook up either of my 36V controllers as I spent at least $20 on those ones. Not $10 or $15. Instead of throwing out the motor and the controllers that do not work I could send them to DA if he can tell me exactly what the problem is. If not who would know and who or what type of equipment is required to test the motor and both controllers for electrical issues like a short in the motor under load or a faulty electrical component in both controllers. Please let me know.

Basically the pictures are of my e bike workshop where everything works great until I take the bike outside and try to ride it and then it all turns into a pile of junk. I wonder if next year this time the broken piece of crap will still be sitting in the corner. ba humbug :x

LC out

 

[DrkAngel]

Not "under load" might draw 1 Amp - "under load" might draw 50 Amps ... might be a bit different result?

 

[Sunder]

The fact that the first one was hooked up backwards several times really don't mean that much as when it was hooked up correctly it worked just like the new one on the 24" bike.

Forget the hooking up backwards - there's no such thing. A brushed motor is designed to spin either way simply by reversing polarity. so it's totally within spec.

Basically until I can get some real straight answers to what is happening I do not wish to hook up either of my 36V controllers as I spent at least $20 on those ones. Not $10 or $15.

Great idea.

Instead of throwing out the motor and the controllers that do not work I could send them to DA if he can tell me exactly what the problem is.

Not such a good idea. Firstly, postage is going to cost more than the item is worth, secondly, you're imposing on a friend who has already been quite generous with you, thirdly, you learn nothing.

If not who would know and who or what type of equipment is required to test the motor and both controllers for electrical issues like a short in the motor under load or a faulty electrical component in both controllers. Please let me know.

Better idea. I'm not all that familiar with brushed motors or controllers, but at the very least, you need a multimeter. However Google is your friend.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=how+to+test+a+brushed+dc+motor

One of the first results? Pretty much what I recommended - Stick a battery straight on it:

[youtube]c8wLfbQAy9s[/youtube]

If you're not going to listen to us, why keep asking the same question?

 

[latecurtis]

I have rigged a 12V SLA battery to a toggle switch hooked to one of those 280W razor scooter motors before that are rated at 24V and 280W.
It worked ok but did not have enough power at 140W to move me on the bike at even a very slight incline. it would go on a very slight decline however. 266W would be the result if I do it with the 36V 800W motor. I guess if smoke don't come from the motor after riding it then it would prove that both controllers failed and not at the fault of the motor.. At that point I could simply order a decent 24V controller or order the 60 tooth spoke sprocket for 800W geared for 30 mph. I will see what I can come up with.

LC out.

 

[Sunder]

I have rigged a 12V SLA battery to a toggle switch hooked to one of those 280W razor scooter motors before that are rated at 24V and 280W.
It worked ok but did not have enough power at 140W to move me on the bike at even a very slight incline. it would go on a very slight decline however. 266W would be the result if I do it. I guess if smoke don't come from the motor after riding it then it would prove that both controllers failed and not at the fault of the motor.. At that point I could simply order a decent 24V controller or order the 60 tooth spoke sprocket for 800W geared for 30 mph. I will see what I can come up with.

LC out.

I'd definitely try it for a minute or two no-load first.

Apparently some people do meggers testing on their DC brushless motor. That indicates how good the insulation is between a current carrying cable and ground. If one of your wires is partly grounded, then it would work fine on no load, but could overload the controller on heavy load. Unfortunately, a direct to battery test will not show anything.

 

[latecurtis]

Not "under load" might draw 1 Amp "under load" might draw 50 Amps ... might be a bit different result?

Another thing I was thinking is both controllers have a pot for a throttle which when turned slowly from the minimum position it is hard to believe that it would take 50 amps to get the bike rolling on flat ground. Maybe on a steep hill from a dead stop. Or maybe a thumb throttle would if engaged all the way but a pot limits current anyway and I did not turn the knob clockwise like a 20 year old kid on a boom box volume knob. I turned it slowly.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

One controller is 40A at full throttle from dead stop the 2nd, metal frame, is 30A at full throttle from dead stop.
Of course that is merely the "rated amps", actual draw on cheapo controller might easily exceed that ...

Further ... the PWM function means that the controller can throughput 40A pulses, even at partial throttle.
Dependent on quality and method, controller might output very brief occasional 40A pulses at partial throttle to nearly continuous rapid 40A pulses.
You would need detailed manufacturer specs or an oscilloscope to precisely determine functional method.

5 - 10 - 20A continuous input, from battery, might output varied 40A, possibly higher, controller throughput ... that is what caps are for ...

 

[latecurtis]

One controller is 40A at full throttle from dead stop the 2nd, metal frame, is 30A at full throttle from dead stop.
Of course that is merely the "rated amps", actual draw on cheapo controller might easily exceed that ...

Who was using FULL THROTTLE from a dead stop ? It sure was not me. I barley touched the knob.I always start off SLOW with those controllers with the built in pot.

I am convinced that the motor has an issue under load which is the reason the controllers shit the bed upon take off. I will be unhooking that motor and tossing it in the trash unless there is another way to test it. Will hooking it directly to a 12V battery prove anything. If not who can test it and how much $

My plan is to install the 36V controller to the bike today and test it with the 24V 500W motor at 0 load. If it works then I will have to order another 48V 1,000W Unite motor like is on the 24" bike and run it at 36V and 750W exactly like the original Currie set up.

Well I guess maybe not. I tried every combination and can't get the 4 wire throttle to work. I guess it is a lost cause.

 

[DrkAngel]

Controller function would not be damaged by motor.

$7.29 controller operates at ≤40A @ 5-100% variable duty cycle.
Even at full 40A output into a heater coil, controller should hold up (with proper cooling-ventilation).



Of course cheapo controller might not use quality components or construction.
More effective ... just buy another $7.29 controller an hope for better luck.
Or, buy a quality controller?

But, hooking battery into power output will damage many controllers!

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. Merry Christmas. Hubzilla 8)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nseINOD3UQ&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blXkpkA-YPM&feature=youtu.be


The SLAs have been sitting around awhile and my multimeter is way off and needs calibration.
I am going to fully charge all the SLAs and try it again tommorow or later today to see if there is a difference.

I found the twist throttle in a drawer. It came with that 10 to 60V variable controller from hell which was defective and only operated correctly at full throttle. I guess that purchase was not a total loss as it saved the day.

I realize the importance of gearing. The 24" bike is faster at 22V than the 20" bike at 36V. I was not surprised that the 24" bike passed me on the second video. However I do know for sure that the motor is solid and it was the controllers that were bad. The bike Johnny rode on had a front brake. The 20" bike I rode with no brakes at all. :lol:

The picture fifth up from the bottom basically shows the perfect antitheft feature. If I plan on leaving the bike locked up for awhile with the batteries hooked up and someone cuts the lock good luck getting it going without that tiny piece of paper clip bent into a horseshoe shape to make the controller turn on. :lol: :lol:

Johnny still wants to buy the Schwinn for $500 so awhile the SLAs are charging I am measuring the Haro V3 for a cromotor.
the 3 bottom pictures show what I believe is 140 mm. The cromotor being 145 mm I believe. Can I make it work or not. If not I visited the cromotor webpage and can get those special adapters to make it work. bottom picture. It Looks like I will be going 50 mph or faster this summer. thanks.

LC out.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. Summer dreams.

The reality is he probably won;t buy the Schwinn for $500. Also I really don't want to sell the Schwinn as I mentioned he needs to take it with him and he has no place to keep it I guess. Also if I really WANTED to sell it I would take $400 or even $350.

The $500 price tag is it will be at least that or more for the cromotor KIT and the dropout extensions to make it work. Reality is Hubzilla probably is not happening until summertime. Anyway I see that at 48V it wont go much faster than the Schwinn with the 1,000 watt motor as that does around 27 mph at 12S LiPo. This may be good as it will give me a chance to upgrade the power gradually.

12S LiPo or 50V (fully charged) 4.17 * 12 = 50.04V.

18S LiPo or 75V (fully charged) 4.17 * 18 =75.06V.

24S LiPo or 100V (fully charged) 4.17 * 24 = 100.08V.

Maximum voltage is 125V which I did not include in the screenshot as I will be lucky to do 100V without chickening out.

My question would be at which voltage would I need to run the motor to stay ahead of those gas four wheelers. Also would 3 or 4 -10.0 - 6S packs in series work or do I need the more expensive 16.0 packs. Please let me know.

LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

What kind of bike are you trying to beat, and what kind of race?

With a 100v limit, you'll have a lower top speed as well as a lower total power limit, since the Cromo is limited to 50a constant, 80a peak.

To get the most out of this, you're going to need a pretty good controller. You can get non programmable ones "cheap", but if you want to squeeze those last couple mph out of it, and have perfectly silent running, be prepared to pay up big.

To be honest, you'd be better off looking for a Zero or a Vectrix with a blown something for a few hundred bucks and put a small but high rate battery in it - it'll be lighter and therefore faster, and you don't need the range for a commute bike. If you think that's not worth boasting about, there is as much skill in modifying a production bike as assembling one from parts (after all you're in effect just modifying a production push bike)

I've heard of guys buying them for as little as $300, and the only thing wrong with them was a flat battery. They revived the battery, sold the old battery for a few bucks and put Nissan Leaf cells in. Bam 250cc beater for $2k, with a 100+ mile range. Could do it with a 50 mile range for $500 using LiPo.

 

[latecurtis]

What kind of bike are you trying to beat, and what kind of race?

Not a bike.

Every summer on the fourth of July my half brother in the country and his cousins I am not related to and my brother n law race 4 wheelers.
My brother n law boasts his 4 wheeler can do 80 mph.

I am not even worried about the 80 mph one as it is probably geared high and therefore will suck from 0 to 50.

If the cromotor cant beat all three four wheelers at least for 1/8 of a mile then I will need a different motor. I am looking at $1000 total for motor kit and batteries maximum.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

For being so afraid of relatively harmless 36V, you seem pretty carefree throwing around 100VDC which can definitely be fatal!

Not scorched fingers ... heart and brain frying dead ...

 

[latecurtis]

For being so afraid of relatively harmless 36V, you seem pretty carefree throwing around 100VDC which can definitely be fatal!

Not scorched fingers ... heart and brain frying dead ...

Yea I was thinking the same thing today. Also thinking about rubber gloves. Thing is the switch makes sure things are in the off posistion.

It is why I do not get sparks from any of my 4 electric bikes that are now fully operational. 2 hub drives and two chain drives

All have a switch between battery and controller. The two brushless controllers have a switch on the controller also. The cromotor will too plus a battery switch just like the Schwinn and 20" DimondBack.

Fear of electricity is not the problem. $$$$$ ! That's a problem. The 93 grand am in my driveway sold for some cash can solve that problem.

LC. out.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. My Christmas present.

I did not get my 4k gaming 55 inch TV on black friday because the doorbuster special for $300 was not a gaming TV with HDR. I did not want it.


In fact I did not get ANY TV for Christmas and had to use the ol ladys TV for the living room for Christmas guests. . It is all good though.

I got my second front chain drive e bike rolling with youtube videos to prove it. It may have no brakes and may be over-geared but the fact is I succeeded in accomplishing the build or rebuild or whatever. I overcame several obstacles to do it.

Once it exists then it can be upgraded. A 60 tooth sprocket with new bolts can happen. To tighten the chain is impossible now as the bracket holding the motor can not be raised at all as the bolts will hit the botttom of the handelbars.

However with a 60T spoke sprocket for better gearing the motor sprocket will be closer to the spoke sprocket so I can redrill the same holes and run the better bolts as well as improve the gearing and make the chain tighter if needed.

LC out.

 

[latecurtis]

As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns.

I am fabricating the rear basket for SLA batteries. I used a bike inner tube yesterday to secure them from sliding around. Now I can just slide them in and out. This bike has the ability to run LiPo packs in the front but 5S LiPo for a 36V controller will be difficult to find a good deal on. 4S in series would probably be below the LVC on this controller and 44V LiPo might fry the controller so I would go with 5S packs in series.

I am going to see if there is any improvment in performance from yesterday since I charged all the SLAs last night. There is some resistance in the 16 gauge house extension wire no doubt plus the gater clips however running SLAs in the back will be only for back up once I get 5S LiPo packs for the front basket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNLio9lYVTA&feature=youtu.be

There is the video and now I know exactly what DA was saying about front wheel powered bikes spinning out as it happened in the video a little over half way and used movie maker to caption it. Check it out. No brakes either of course but as slippery as it was today brakes would not have mattered. I have needed a new pair of kicks for awhile anyway so using my feet for brakes is ok as I will be buying new kicks in three days on Friday when the disability check shows up.

As for now my friend Joe is going to help me get both bikes upstairs for maintenance on the 24" bike as I want to tighten up the chain some and run three of these SLAs on that bike later on to see if it is just the gearing causing the problem at 36V or if the SLAs are just very weak.
The 24" cargo bike has a 20" wheel with a 60 tooth spoke sprocket. At 36V power is 750W and rpm = 2250. The 20" bike power is 800W at 36V and rpm 2750 with the 56 tooth spoke sprocket. The last time I ran the 24" bike it seemed to be twice as powerful as the 20" bike is now. Thanks.



LC. out.

 

[Sunder]

For being so afraid of relatively harmless 36V, you seem pretty carefree throwing around 100VDC which can definitely be fatal!

Not scorched fingers ... heart and brain frying dead ...

Yea I was thinking the same thing today. Also thinking about rubber gloves. Thing is the switch makes sure things are in the off posistion.

It is why I do not get sparks from any of my 4 electric bikes that are now fully operational. 2 hub drives and two chain drives

Oh wow... Yeah, might want to rethink working with 100v, if the connection spark is the only thing you're worried about. The only thing that can do is burn your fingers, it can't kill. But touching the terminals of a constructed battery - which has no on/off switch, can kill.

If you're so worried about the connection spark, build an inrush current limiter. All the switch is doing is hiding the spark inside the switch.

As for your build, you won't get away with under $1000

Cromotor is $600 without shipping: http://www.jozztek.com/shop/ebike-motors/158-greyborg-cromotor-hubzilla.html
Adaptto Midi-E is $635 without shipping: http://adaptto.envolt.se/Products/Controllers/ - And that only handles 90v. To get the most out of the Cromotor, you probably need a higher voltage controller.

Then you need to add batteries and bits and pieces.

A biblical parable comes to mind here:

“Suppose one of you wants to build a tower. Won’t you first sit down and estimate the cost to see if you have enough money to complete it? For if you lay the foundation and are not able to finish it, everyone who sees it will ridicule you, saying, ‘This person began to build and wasn’t able to finish.’

 

[latecurtis]

 

[latecurtis]

View attachment 2


As the Hub Motor Turns and the LiPo Fire Burns. many questions.


I would really like to improve the gearing on the 20" bike.

However when I look for the same exact 9 tooth spoke sprocket I ordered last year for the 24" bike it is nowhere to be found on e bay. What is worse is that since I have a different pay pal account and it was last year when I ordered the 9 hole 60T spoke sprocket. The link is probably in the post somewhere but am wondering why all the sprockets are 8 hole instead of 9 hole now. Or at least most of them. Will they even fit on a 36 spoke wheel ?

Also what about the 9 tooth motor sprocket DA posted for the Unite motor. Will it fit on my unite motor or just the 350 Unite motor DA posted.
The top picture is my 800 W motor. The one under it is the 350 watt motor.

All I know is it is geared for 32 mph currently but with the 60T spoke sprocket and 9 tooth motor sprocket gearing would be for 24.5 mph which would be perfect for 800 watts. Yes I did try calling the company that makes the motor sprocket but got no answer. Just a recording. I will have the money in a few days to order the parts plus a thumb throttle as the twist throttle is temporary and my only back up throttle if one breaks. Also I can run the new stronger bolts when I change the wheel sprocket. Please let me know if those sprockets will work. Thanks.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/80cc-Motor-bicycle-GAS-ENGINE-parts-60-teeth-flat-sprocket-only-no-mount-/191731104174?hash=item2ca41079ae:g:X2IAAOSw~bFWOTB7

Ok I found the post and the link came up. I even checked in a different browser and it is a current link. I already have the mounting kit for it. I still am curious what those 8 hole sprockets are for though. Mabye for 48 spoke wheels ? That solves half the gearing problem now all I need to know is if that 9 tooth motor sprocket will fit on my motor. Please let me know ?

LC. out.