new eZip motor

[latecurtis]

Looks like every one of your solderings are cold solder joints!

This is usually the result of the soldering iron being used to heat the solder directly, rather than the parts themselves. Properly done, the iron heats the parts to be connected, which in turn melt the solder,

Ok. I read it. So according to that I am supposed to hold the tip of the Weller directly on the top and bottom of the cells and touch the solder to the cell until it melts which will heat up the cell to a point where it will be completely destroyed./ non functional.

It just does not make any sense to me at all.

The way I soldered the last pack with the Weller I barley touched the cell. I dropped balls of solder on the cells then heated the solder balls until they were liquid for wetting and inserted the tinned wire into the molten ball of solder and removed the iron.

I only needed to heat the ball of solder about 2 to 3 seconds and the cells were barley warm to the touch. Spot welding would be better but I do not think I damaged the cells. At least on the pack I soldered with the Weller.

However the 26650 cell packs are not that good. Very low capacity and discharge rate. They would not run the greentime controller which says on the controller it will do 36 to 48V. Also I only went about 5 miles with the Currie and run the Bafang SOLO mostly on the flat and capacity went from 96% down to 35%. The range is terrible. 12S - 5P is supposed to be 19 Ah and lucky if they would compare to three 10 Ah - SLAs.

To be honest I do not think soldering has anything to do with it. I am willing to bet spot welded packs the same size with the same cells will not have any more significant range or discharge than the packs I soldered. I know I wont but any more of those cells. It is not the operator. It is the cells.

I can only hope the LTOs will be better. I will be building them soon. I went to True value hardware today and got a 2 by 4 foot piece of plywood and cut it to fit in my basket.



I should have enough wood for the power modules and the two 10S - LTO packs.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[markz]

More like
"The Twilight Zone"
or
"Groundhog Day"

by nicobie » Sep 15 2021 8:19pm

We are getting close to 300 pages of the same, to be nice about it, nonsense.

Guessing you not judging it on the same level as "War and Peace".

 

[DrkAngel]

LC, you have a long and continuing history of reacting irrationally based on your ignorance, misunderstandings and low frustration tolerance.
If suddenly disillusioned with LiFe, test to determine if you even know what you are dealing with.
Stop being reactionary based on your emotional frustrations.

Balance charge 1 - 6s bank of LiFe,
run a discharge cycle - note discharge Ah, (also, note voltages of each bank)
run a normal charge cycle - note charge Ah, (also, note voltages of each bank)

Report results.

 

[latecurtis]

If suddenly disillusioned with LiFe, test to determine if you even know what you are dealing with.

OR

disenchanted.

Basically the same thing I guess.

I have been testing them. I Rode them several times and made videos.

I have lots of batteries I have run to compare them too.

I just do not see those 26650 cells as capable of any useful range so far. Also they seem to be low discharge cells.

I have run

SLA

LiPO

Lion

LIFE.

LTO is next.

So far LiPo is the best for discharge and Lion for capacity.

Both very volatile battery chemistries. They can burn you up and everything you love. Plenty of videos can prove that.

I got rid of LiPo. I want to get rid of Lion too but so far is the best for range and capacity. LIFEPO4 is a joke. LTO is my next project.

DA and Markz , Thanks for posting.

I will be working on battery boxes for the power modules and the LTOs.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Big question mark! The 13S power modules came with their oem balance board already attached, why would you buy an additional 1 for them?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nn7EWmLs1k&t=331s

Because the guy in that video did. He said it was NOT a proper BMS. He said the board was junk and I thought it might short out. I did not know that it would balance the pack. It is too late as I threw out those boards. I watched exactly how he removed the board and did it also.

Ignorance and gullibility abound!
Why you take the conjectures of strangers in videos as gospel and ignore the recommendations of proven, reliable experts from Endless Sphere is a consternating mystery!

 

[DrkAngel]

I have been testing them. I Rode them several times and made videos.

I have lots of batteries I have run to compare them too.

I just do not see those 26650 cells as capable of any useful range so far. Also they seem to be low discharge cells.

Try a scientific method of testing rather than your half-assed mode of misconceptions, ignorance , misinformation compounded by being blinded by frustration-anger.

LC, you have a long and continuing history of reacting irrationally based on your ignorance, misunderstandings and low frustration tolerance.
If suddenly disillusioned with LiFe, test to determine if you even know what you are dealing with.
Stop being reactionary based on your emotional frustrations.

Balance charge 1 - 6s bank of LiFe,
run a discharge cycle - note discharge Ah, (also, note voltages of each bank)
run a normal charge cycle - note charge Ah, (also, note voltages of each bank)

Report results.

Also, as I have linked to explanation of, cold solder joints can mimic "low discharge cells" due to poor electrical connection-conduction. Additionally, solder is a relatively poor conductor, compared to copper, your method of melting wires into "balls of solder" leaves unnecessary distance of pathway for electricity to travel through high IR solder, making cells appear low discharge capable.

"The electrical conductivity of soft and hard solders is considerably less than that of copper, varying with composition between approximately 9 percent and 13 percent for soft solders and 20 percent and 40 percent for silver solders."

Compare IR from bare cell contact points and from soldered wires.

See - Hand Soldering and read carefully "cold joints"

 

[latecurtis]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x19XRYH2Bvs


If what I did in the video was a cold solder then there is absolutely no possible way to solder a wire to a cell without completely destroying the cell.

The start of the video where I dropped the balls of solder on the cells was cold solder. I admit that as I could remove the balls with needle nose plyers

HOWEVER

the second step where I heated the balls up (wetting) and attached the wires was in my opinion HOT solder.

So if DA. thinks not it makes Backlight , Tomajz and nicobie right and everyone else wrong.

Soldering cells ruins them. It is impossible to solder a cell without destroying it from too much heat.

Backlight pointed that out many posts ago and Tomajz as well.

Spot welding is the only way to build packs. Any other way will heat the cells up to a point where they are damaged.

According to the instructions for HOT soldering I would have to hold that large hot tip of the Weller directly on the cell until it is as hot as the iron and melts the solder touching the cell top. That to me is absolutely ridiculous.

There is a great chance if I tried that with an 18650 cell that it would blow up like a fire cracker. If that method is the proper way to solder then count me out as I think my way is much better and I will stick to that.

I had the two packs in series hooked to the 42V charger overnight and the pack I soldered with the Weller is at 96% total with all cells between 94 and 96% exactly where they are supposed to be at.

The other pack has one cell at 92% and the rest are 94 to 96% that pack reads at 95% total. It makes sense se that pack was soldered with a 60 watt iron and heated up excessively but I still do not see significant damage.

I do not believe the packs were soldered wrong and never will. They are just cheap garbage cells. They are good for short trips that are < 10 miles but would not trust them after that. I will need a good 15 amp charger to recharge if I go further than 5 miles from home.

Hopefully the LTOs will have better performance as far as discharge and range.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[Blacklite]

Do you use the “LC drip solder ball cold joint method” for all your soldered connections, not just batteries? If so it’s a miracle anything has ever worked at all.

I’d suggest that since your methods are so proven and reliable, you should publish your findings in the name of science… you will revolutionise the technology sector. Find yourself some other pre-Copernican obscurantists that I’m sure can no-doubt reinforce your views, and write it all up. The literature review can be a simple “I don’t believe that” and the rest can be 300 pages of drivel from this thread. One of those universities run out of a Post Office box can probably even award you a PhD for your great contribution to new knowledge.

 

[tomjasz]

3 Years ago I pointed you to a thread with a successful soldered pack. Kepler has forgotten more than you and I know.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=65719

 

[latecurtis]

Yea.

I looked at it but did not see a video.

I know I could have tinned the cells before soldering the tinned wire to the cell like that guy did.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvHtaBQmdss&t=468s

I just did not think it would make a difference as the Weller melts the solder to the proper temperature therefore the wetting occurs adhering the solder to the cell and around the wire.

I just fail to see how it could be considered a cold solder. I do agree 60/40 solder would have worked better but is it really necessary to tear both those packs apart and DE - SOLDER all 60 cells and do everything over. Tinning the cells and re soldering all those wires with 60/40 solder ?

I know I am not doing it. In fact I am so thoroughly disgusted with all the negative energy here I do not even want to look at an e bike. I do not want to build any more batteries solder or no solder.

I am just sick of all of it. I wish I could just sell everything and buy a four cylinder car.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

If what I did in the video was a cold solder then there is absolutely no possible way to solder a wire to a cell without completely destroying the cell.

My method produces nice wet, flat liquid solder, takes half the time and half the solder with thousands of successful solderings on 18650s. and 26650s, (LiCo and LiFe) with never any type of dangerous mishap!
Maybe I just live in the real world, not some delusional LC world?

 

[latecurtis]

I have been watching that video.

I think I can copy what he did in the video. I did copy a little of it.

I know I can practice it.

I do not have to drop solder balls any more.

The guy did tin the wire and put the tinned wire on top of the cell.

I copied that in my video but I heated up a cold solder joint.

My point was if the solder reaches wetting temperature then how could it still be a cold joint ?

That is the controversy here. It is all about tinning the cell. Not dropping solder balls.

If I tinned each cell first then went back and dropped solder balls would the solder balls still be cold ??? :lol:

He tinned the cell and the wire and then put the solder iron on top of the wire.

I need a video to learn and none of you guys did a video , but that guy did.

When I ever get in the mood for soldering again I can try tinning the cell like he did and the wire. I don't like small solder joints though. But dropping balls is not the best method.

If I tin all the cells just like the guy did in the video Then put the tinned wire on the cell and melt a little solder over it
it should work because both the cell and the wire were both tinned first ???

Also it should be less solder than dropping balls like I did. I can practice how just to add a little and might get good enough where I don't need to add solder.


Please let me know.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[markz]

Pre-tinning is the way to go
Please no solder balls, please no cold solder joints, there are a million different tutorials on youtube on how to properly solder from pcb components, to wire on wire, to wire on pads, wire through hole, smt's, people buying bulk laptop 18650 and soldering packs to people on ES posting about doing the same to guru's on es doing the same.

You could get away with selling one of your ebikes in full working order, battery and charger. Just not sure how big the population is where you are at. In your video's it looks like you are riding out on the city limits somewhere with big acreages or out in the country. Obviously its more populated out that way so its a different vibe then the Foothills of the Rocky Mountains.

 

[DrkAngel]

Melting and wetting are 2 way different things.

 

[latecurtis]

Melting and wetting temperature are 2 way different things.

I was told that the Weller soldering iron was the right temperature automatically for wetting.

Therefore when I heated up my famous or infamous solder balls to insert/ attach the wires I assumed it was wetting temperature therefore no longer cold solder joints like they were at first when I dropped the balls of solder on the cells.

Sure I could take the packs out of the boxes and heat up each solder joint a second or even third time but why would I do that if the solder already reached wetting temperature when I attached the wire.

It just makes no sense to me at all.

I get it now that I should tin each cell first but will never understand how a solder joint can be considered cold when the Weller heated up the balls of solder to wetting temperature.

I know the Weller is proper temperature as I had to re - melt the solder joints 3 or 4 times with the 60 watt iron before I got the Weller. I had to keep the 60 watt iron in the molten solder ball 20 to 30 seconds to get a good bond. You can see in the video the Weller only took 2 to 3 seconds when I attached the wire.

Therefore if all of my solder joints are cold then the Weller is garbage and will need a hotter iron which I am not doing. I spent enough money.

I am on a limited budget or need to be.

My main batteries now are the 12S - LIFEPO4s. However due to their limited range am scared to go more than five miles away as I might have to push a heavy e bike home AGAIN !!!

Therefore before I buy anything else to build LTOs or hook up the power modules I need a GOOD PROPER 12S = LIFEPO4 charger for portable charging. Something I can plug in for about 1/2 hour to 45 minutes and get about five to seven miles range at 10 mph.

https://www.fuelzero.com/product-p/fz-chg36v-10a.htm

10A * 43V = 430W

If < 10 mph is = or < 430W then a 45 minute charge should be = 7.5 miles.

10 miles in 1 hour = 5 miles in 0.5 hour and 2.5 miles in 15 minutes.

If anyone knows of a better deal or a 15 amp charger for the same price or less please post it as I am on my way to Wall-Mart to put money on my card now.

The active balancer for the LTOs went thru but not the one for the power modules so will need to add money anyway so will put $120 extra on my card for a charger for 12S - LIFE.



Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[markz]

Damn I hated those days using prepaid cc's/gift cards.
You don't even build credit using those, such a shame.
About the best you could hope for if you've tried and failed to get an easy cc (Capitol One, Walmart, any department store credit) is to get a secured cc from a bank, but that means you need to deposit money which you get back. However the slime of the cockroaches in the cc industry, Capitol One/Walmart the bar is extremely low to not get a cc. You'd have to have a bankrupcy or just a real horrible credit report from Equifax or TransUnion with lots of late payments, missed payments.
I just hate to see people being taken advantage of
Its called predatory lending practices
And prepaid cc's are the creme of the crop, fee's, fee's and more fee's
But people choose to use them, probably have no clue of other options

Lifepo4 charger
https://bmsbattery.com/13-ebike-charger-ev-charger?order=product.price.asc
https://evfittinggreentime.aliexpress.com/store/group/Lithium-Lipo-LiFePO4-Charger/313864_210769759.html?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_home.pcShopHead_11248317.1_2

 

[latecurtis]

I went with the fuel zero charger as it charges LIFEPO4 to 100% as is 43.8V

I will have to put the battery boxes in a back pack and should be able to plug in to an AC outlet in any fast food restaurant or coffee shop.

I cancelled the 13S active balancer and ordered a second 10S for the other LTO pack so can just plug both in and leave them plugged in. If the LTOs have good capacity for at least 20 miles then wont need a portable charger. I can just use my 54.6V charger I use for the 13S - 20 Ah pack. I might buy one next month but my budget for this month is shot.

I still need ring terminals for 10 gauge wire but am thinking Home Depot might have them so wont have to order them.

I bought the LIFEPO4s first.

Then the LTOs

Then the power modules.

Therefore I need two 10S - LTO packs each with its own 10S active balancer. That is what I will be working on now.

At least when I get the 10 amp LIFE charger I can go to the Home Depot and not have to wonder if I will make it back as can stop and charge for about an hour.

Home Depot is 7.5 miles so a 15 mile round trip. They might do it but am not taking that chance as they died on me once and there is not much warning. They get sluggish and then just trip the LVC. It sucks.

I think I will order two 6S active balancers for the LIFEPO4 packs as well. Then I can just plug and play. No more balancing or low cell. That can wait though until next month also.

As far as soldering is concerned I will have to solder the ring terminals to my 10 gauge wire to build the LTOs but wont have to deal with soldering cells. I need a break from all that. A long break.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[markz]

When the good battery cuts off due to a bms lvc, usually have about 1-2 miles if you baby and it really pedal hard. If you get a booster pack of whatever your voltage is with very high current discharge (30A+) then you could use 10-14S or higher for lp4 and 1 or 2P. Get ya 150+Wh booster pack for 5-8 miles.

No more soldering for you
Bus bars and bolts

 

[latecurtis]

No more soldering for you
Bus bars and bolts

Right.

I looked for bus bars for the Lishen LTOs and did not see any. Thete are bus bars but they make 40 Ah - LTOs as well. Not sure what size I need ?????

I need bus bars for 18Ah - LISHEN - LTO.

I do not want the cells touching each other. Not sure if there is a little space with the bus bars ????

Not a lot of space but 1/8" would be great.

I want to start building the box soon. I ordered the active balancers. All I will need now is the bus bars and a 10 to 15 amp charger. Actually a 20 amp charger would be great but probably too bulky and expensive for portable charging.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[markz]

You could have made your own bus bars.

Probably got it on 1 or 2 day delivery
https://www.amazon.com/copper-bus-bar/s?k=copper+bus+bar

 

[DrkAngel]

Went looking for a 36V LiFe charger for LC.
Found a cheap ($34.19) 48V 12.5A (600w) switching PS, at 120% surge capability, should output 15A. Adjusting to 40.0V, for my 10s LiCo (40.0V x 15A = 600w) meets the 600w continuous rating

Found a cheap ($39.89) 60V 10A (600w) switching PS, at 120% surge should output 12A. Adjusting to 52.0V, for my 13s LiCo (52.0V x 12A = 624w) comes close to it's 600w rating.

Neither is ideal due to unknown amp regulation circuit but should lend well to documented regulation in series with MeanWell S-150 models! 60V 600w & 15V 10A Mean Well would be perfect for my 54V 28Ah (15s8p), adjustable for 13s, 14s or 15s.

 

[latecurtis]

I ordered that but I still need a charger for 20S - LTO.

I do not even know the exact voltage. Somewhere around 54,6V I think but really not sure.

I plan on building two 10S packs. I ordered an active balancer for each 10S pack.

I need to split them up. One on the top bar of the frame and the other in a sturdy front basket. A rear rack and basket for cargo , tools and my chain and pad lock. It should work as the rear motors are heavy.

An active balancer is like a BMS right ????? I just plug it in and leave it when running or charging ?????

I know DA said I do not need one but they are not expensive and are supposed to turn off once the pack is balanced ???

I was thinking about getting two 6S active balancers for the LIFEPO4 packs if that stubborn cell keeps going low. It dont go really low but is 92% and all other cell banks in both packs are 94 to 97%.

I think I will get two active balancers for the power modules even if I don't need them as they do not cost a lot and should never have to worry about low or high cells. Kind of like an insurance policy but only one payment. :lol:

I am still not sure what to do with all the 10S - 18650 packs. The Laudation is the newest and if I were to unhook the BMS and install a cheap active balancer it might just work. I could then solder a few more cells to each bank and make it 10S - 8P instead of 10S - 4P.

The only thing I like about Lithium ion is it has a greater energy density and better capacity and range than LIFE. For smaller or lighter weight bikes I prefer smaller more compact packs. I like my 13S - 20 AH factory pack as I modified the black box to fit it and really want a 10S 8P pack like I had in another black box for the 26" dual suspension with the 36V motor in the front and 48V motor in the rear. No way I could run LIFEPO4 and LTO on one bike. Together the batteries would out weigh the bike.

Guess what ???

I hooked the 42V 1 amp charger I have had for years to the LIFEPO4 packs over night and just tested each pack with the balancer and the pack I soldered with the Weller read 95 - 96% each cell but the pack I did first with the 60W iron still has the one cell bank at 92%. the rest are 94 to 97%.

The active balancers should fix that though. Also the new charger as it charges to 100% or 43.8V. That could fix the cell but with active balancing it is guaranteed to fix it. Also a 100% charge should get me 3 or 4 extra miles of range which I could use with these low capacity packs.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Guess what ???

I hooked the 42V 1 amp charger I have had for years to the LIFEPO4 packs over night and just tested each pack with the balancer and the pack I soldered with the Weller read 95 - 96% each cell but the pack I did first with the 60W iron still has the one cell bank at 92%. the rest are 94 to 97%.

No need to "guess" ... that is exactly what I told you would happen!

Yea. That would explain what happened. After 3.2V it drops like a rock.

42V ÷ 12s = 3.5V
3.5V = 95% charged

So ... 42V Li-Ion charger should work well with 12s LiFe
No need for balancing with matched LiFe, Standard 3.60-3.65V equalizes retained voltage near 3.40V.

 

[latecurtis]

Yea.

I was not sure if I was going 7.5 miles today or only 3 miles so plugged in the 13S - 20 Ah pack. It was sitting at 3.7V per cell about a week.

it looks like I will only be going 3 miles or 6 miles round trip so might unplug the 13S - 20 Ah pack as I really do not want it sitting for days at 4,2V per cell.

Now you know exactly why I hate BMSs for lithium ion. They only balance at 4,2V which limits the life span to < 500 cycles. It is just not what I want. I want > 1,000 cycles.

I think the good out weighs the bad comparing Lion to LIFE or LTO as they do not take forever to charge. You can charge from 50% or even 30% to 100% or at least 95% in an hour or two where Lion with a BMS can take overnight. That and LIFE and LTO can not do the thermal runaway thing.

The 10 amp LIFE charger will work great as can put the 42V charger I use now for over night and an hour before I go hook the 10 amp and charge full for those 3 or 4 extra miles and bring the 10 amp charger with me for long trips so can charge at a fast food place for an hour awhile I use their wy fi on my lap top.

However I still have tons and tons of Lion 18650 cells. If I were to want to run Lion 10S and 13S could I unhook the BMS and install active balancers ? that would allow me to charge at 4.1V or 3.92V instead of 4,2V for BMS balance.

The active balancer can balance while discharging as well as charging right ??? It just seems like a much better option than a BMS.

I wish I could just send DA. ALL my lithium ion cells and packs and in return just one 14S - 8P pack with active balancer that allows me to charge at 13S for 3.92V per cell and a 10S - 8P pack with a way to also charge at 3.92V. Not sure how that would work.

All 5 of those old hoverboard packs worked. Never had a problem with those. The Laudation 10S - 4P and two 10S - 2P hoverboard packs failed but am thinking it was the BMS. Then there are about 200 cells loose some in 10S - 1P that I soldered. They could be de soldered and re used though.

Please let me know. I could call FedX and see how much shipping would be per pound. I really would like to get rid of them. I would even like to have the BMS removed from the 13S - 20 Ah pack and be replaced with a fuse and active balancer.

Thanks.

LC. out.

 

[DrkAngel]

Now you know exactly why I hate BMSs for lithium ion. They only balance at 4,2V which limits the life span to < 500 cycles. It is just not what I want. I want > 1,000 cycles.

I think the good out weighs the bad comparing Lion to LIFE or LTO as they do not take forever to charge. You can charge from 50% or even 30% to 100% or at least 95% in an hour or two where Lion with a BMS can take overnight. That and LIFE and LTO can not do the thermal runaway thing.

Get a .5C Lithium charger. I do full charges in 2.5-3 hours.
Recommended charge rate is the same for most Li-ion and LiFe, .5C.
Same amount of charge time for either!
Do you even know if your batteries need balancing?
I test and trim balance charge my builds maybe twice a year, and most being old recycled cells.
"Detailed" battery builds, properly tested and sorted cells, are equal voltage at full and empty and remain so, no need for any "balance", unless "abused" or damaged!