New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[nieles]

Would be great to have developers joining forces to also make OpenSource firmware for TSDZx motor and share detailed technical notes about the motor and controller.
A user from this thread already sent me a private message and will offer me a TSDZ2 motor so I can analyze, learn and share detailed technical notes. Let's see If I can see a possibility to port our Flexible OpenSource firmware from Kunteng motor controllers to TSDZ2 motor controller.

if anyone has its TSDZ2 apart, it would be really interesting to see the Controller PCB (high resolution perpendicular pictures would be great) To see what kind of HW it has with relation to current sensors and gate drivers and power switches.

 

[casainho]

Would be great to have developers joining forces to also make OpenSource firmware for TSDZx motor and share detailed technical notes about the motor and controller.
A user from this thread already sent me a private message and will offer me a TSDZ2 motor so I can analyze, learn and share detailed technical notes. Let's see If I can see a possibility to port our Flexible OpenSource firmware from Kunteng motor controllers to TSDZ2 motor controller.

if anyone has its TSDZ2 apart, it would be really interesting to see the Controller PCB (high resolution perpendicular pictures would be great) To see what kind of HW it has with relation to current sensors and gate drivers and power switches.

Yes please!! I would like to see the reference of the main microcontroller and also from that big IC near the power mosfets. Also, I ak curious to see if that motor controller has motor phase current sensor in addition to the typical motor shunt current sensor.

Since I believe it uses the STM8S105 microcontroller, it shouldn't be much different from this Kunteng motor controllers from which we designed the schematic - see here in PDF file: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/development/Motor_controllers--BMSBattery_S_series--BMSBattery_S06S.html

 

[casainho]

So, since I remember, nieles is also a developer and user of our OpenSource firmware for Kunteng motor controllers. It is great to see his interest also on the motor since many things can be shared amoung the projects and that should speedup a lot any possible OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2 motor

 

[John and Cecil]

So, if I wanted to remove the speed limiter on my TSDZ2b, is there an easy way to do it? We do not have any ebike-specific speed laws here, and while I get to work just fine at ~20mph, I'd be just as happy doing it at 25+.

In addition to the other suggestions you can change the max speed setting and tire size settings on the display. My unit came set at 25kph max from the factory but that can be raised to a maximum of 35kph (at least with the one I have). You can also change the tire size setting - I have mine set to 14" tires so when it states I am going 10kph I am actually going about 13mph with my 27.5 plus size tires. With these settings I have a theoretical max speed of about 45mph.

Another option which should work but I have not tried yet is to edit the number of magnetic speed sensors in the menu. I guess if you set "2" and you only have 1 magnet the unit will think you are only going half as fast. Theoretically if you are using 26" x 2" mtb tires and you set the tire size at 32" (the max setting) and you set the magnets at "2" but only use 1 speed sensor magnet, and you set units to kph the readout should be very, very close (within 2%) to your actual speed in mph. - Unless I did the math wrong!

 

[nieles]

So, since I remember, nieles is also a developer and user of our OpenSource firmware for Kunteng motor controllers. It is great to see his interest also on the motor since many things can be shared amoung the projects and that should speedup a lot any possible OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2 motor

well if we feel confident the software is portable (i.e. the right HW is there) i will probably buy a kit and get coding.

 

[casainho]

So, since I remember, nieles is also a developer and user of our OpenSource firmware for Kunteng motor controllers. It is great to see his interest also on the motor since many things can be shared amoung the projects and that should speedup a lot any possible OpenSource firmware for TSDZ2 motor

well if we feel confident the software is portable (i.e. the right HW is there) i will probably buy a kit and get coding.

I see some strategic important points on this STDZ2 motor and controller that I also saw on Kunteng motor controllers:
1. for what users are saying, it is an relatively good mid drive motor
2. the most cheap on the market: starting at 300€
3. widely available: some well know online shops (BMSBAttery.com and http://www.pswpower.com/) sell them and ship to worldwide -- and this shops are selling similar products over the years so this product should be available on next 5 to 10 years
4. torque sensor: this type of sensor is really great but a typical one used on hub motors can't be used with mid drive motors, so, a mid drive motor that already includes one sensor is really a must
5. this shops also sell repair parts (http://www.pswpower.com/) at cheap prices, like the motor, the motor controller, the torque sensor, the gears (metal or plastic), etc. This is really important for users because of being able to repair and even adapt for specific needs. Also really important for development!!
6. potential to use as base our Flexible OpenSource software: since the microcontroller seems to be the same! this should boost a lot the development!!!

For all that reasons, I am pretty sure TSDZ2 will be a popular and good investment as a mid drive motor, available on the market for cheap on over the next 5 to 10 years. Also for the DIY modders/hackers perspective - that will even potentiate more the usage of this motor!!

I am afraid the original controller don't do "sinewave" control -- we need to check that!! Anyone saw any reference as this motor being running using "sinewave" control mode??
Because using sinewave/"very low resolution FOC" as on our firmware, we can get the motor running the most electrical efficient possible!! And that is really important to get the best range possible for the same battery pack!!
If original controller just do 6 step/block commutation, I will prefer to use instead a Kunteng motor controller that even has a very good LCD and Bluetooth module for using with a mobile app. Going by this path, only the torque sensor will needed to be tested as it is really different from the one of BMSBattery bottom bracket. All other things should be similar.

 

[AWD]

Exciting to have Casainho and Niele onboard with this system.

If there is any way to work diagnostics in to the programming it would be icing on the cake. Even though it is a simple modular system compared to the proprietary mid drives from the bigger manufacturers there is still the chance one thing can go wrong that might be confused with another and take extra time to diagnose otherwise.

 

[Rydon]

If original controller just do 6 step/block commutation, I will prefer to use instead a Kunteng motor controller that even has a very good LCD and Bluetooth module for using with a mobile app. Going by this path, only the torque sensor will needed to be tested as it is really different from the one of BMSBattery bottom bracket. All other things should be similar.

One of the important benefits of mid-drive motors like Bafang and TSDZ2 is how easy and clean it is to install because of having the controller built in. I would be willing to trade off a little efficiency to retain this benefit. The TSDZ2 is already very efficient. I don't know if it is because of the torque sensor but it seems to get more mileage out of a battery than a similar sized Bafang.

The point is that the attractiveness of the solution is diminished if you are unable to use the built-in controller. I have considered using the Cycle Analyst and Grinfineon controller to achieve the same thing but have not as yet done so because of the external controller.

 

[gggplaya]

Golden pie motors have a built in controller but no torque control.

 

[casainho]

If there is any way to work diagnostics in to the programming it would be icing on the cake. Even though it is a simple modular system compared to the proprietary mid drives from the bigger manufacturers there is still the chance one thing can go wrong that might be confused with another and take extra time to diagnose otherwise.

Can you please elaborate in what you would expect for such diagnostics?

One of the important benefits of mid-drive motors like Bafang and TSDZ2 is how easy and clean it is to install because of having the controller built in. I would be willing to trade off a little efficiency to retain this benefit. The TSDZ2 is already very efficient. I don't know if it is because of the torque sensor but it seems to get more mileage out of a battery than a similar sized Bafang.

See that more efficiency also means more torque.
But if you say they are already good efficient, maybe that is because they already do "FOC" - I can also think that they were also developed by Kunteng for Tunsheng, since they use the same microcontroller and I never saw other controllers using the same microcontroller as Kunteng uses, and Kunteng develops custom controllers for others.

Golden pie motors have a built in controller but no torque control.

Our firmware does current/torque control as also speed control.

 

[John and Cecil]

So, if I wanted to remove the speed limiter on my TSDZ2b, is there an easy way to do it? We do not have any ebike-specific speed laws here, and while I get to work just fine at ~20mph, I'd be just as happy doing it at 25+.

I verified that changing the number of magnets in the settings does work. You can leave all your settings intact but change the number of magnets in the settings to 2 and it will then register that you are going 1/2 the actual speed.

 

[fixvid]

Hi,
Does anybody know if TSDZ2 fits BB30 bottom bracket? I mean will it have enough space between shaft and motor to clear the thicker bottom bracket ?
Bike is a Cannondale Scalpel 29er.

Idk what bb30 size is or anything about the Canondale and I am a bicycle noob. On my Raleigh Kodiak the motor fit perfectly. The outside dimensions of myy bb are 73mm wide with an outer diameter of about 45mm. I made sure to order the 73mm kit, I believe it comes with an extra set of spacers and 2 longer bolts.

Hi
I measured the bottom bracket thickness and it's 49.7mm. Very close to you bb of 45. Can you tell me if there is still some space left between your bb and motor casing ?

About torque * cadence, we implemented "human power" algorithm (is an optional feature):

// calc humam power on the crank using as input the pedal torque sensor value and pedal cadence
  ui16_temp = (uint16_t) (f_pedal_torque * ((float)

(

I'm still not convinced that cadence limit can be increased by reprogramming the firmware. To increase the cadence limit would require to increase the motor RPM and that is only possible by increasing the voltage if i'm not mistaken. Like someone here tried to use a 36v motor on a 48v controller. Does that work without blowing the motor?

A 36v motor is 65usd. Not that expensive.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-7N-N6GG.6NQBY

 

[Chalo]

I measured the bottom bracket thickness and it's 49.7mm. Very close to you bb of 45. Can you tell me if there is still some space left between your bb and motor casing ?

There are plenty of eccentric adapter cups for BB30 and PF30. Use those and you'll have all the clearance you need.

 

[Rydon]

There are plenty of eccentric adapter cups for BB30 and PF30. Use those and you'll have all the clearance you need.

Do you know who makes those? Can you provide a link? FSA has adapters that work on aluminum frames but not on carbon because of the thickness. I would like to find eccentric adapters for carbon frames. I have seen a few builds where they used custom CNC'd eccentric cups but if someone is manufacturing and selling them that would be great.

 

[Rydon]

I'm still not convinced that cadence limit can be increased by reprogramming the firmware. To increase the cadence limit would require to increase the motor RPM and that is only possible by increasing the voltage if i'm not mistaken. Like someone here tried to use a 36v motor on a 48v controller. Does that work without blowing the motor?

A 36v motor is 65usd. Not that expensive.
http://www.pswpower.com/peng/iview.asp?KeyID=dtpic-2016-7N-N6GG.6NQBY

Yes, it works. I often buy high torque 36v 210 rpm hub motors and run them at 48v to get about 280rpm. This gets just over 20mph on a 26" wheel and is still fairly torquey for hills whereas 36v doesn't have the speed. The motors are usually the same for 36v and 48v but with different windings for torque vs speed for an overall variance of around 5.5-11.5 rpm/v. The gear reduction on a mid-drive is a lot more but the same variances for wheel RPM can be applied to cadence after some divisor. The math is fairly simple.

Has anyone actually tried it? The unknown is if the magnetic pulses on cadence in the motor are factored into the controller algorithm and act like a governor on the motor. If that is the case a higher voltage will not help and the only hope for what you are trying to achieve is custom firmware like casainho is proposing or perhaps using an external programmable controller.

 

[ebikeman123]

Hi! I am new here and have read most of this thread. I am seriously considering a 750w 52v tsdz2 for commuting (lots of hills). I get my exercise from other things (running and weightlifting) so the bike is purely for transport. What I am concerned about is that to get the maximum power out of the tsdz2 I would have to pedal so hard that I will work up a sweat in my job clothes. Is this the case?
How much torque do you apply to the pedals in turbo mode to get the maximum power out of the motor?

Also, is it true that the throttle will damage the motor?

 

[gggplaya]

Hi! I am new here and have read most of this thread. I am seriously considering a 750w 52v tsdz2 for commuting (lots of hills). I get my exercise from other things (running and weightlifting) so the bike is purely for transport. What I am concerned about is that to get the maximum power out of the tsdz2 I would have to pedal so hard that I will work up a sweat in my job clothes. Is this the case?
How much torque do you apply to the pedals in turbo mode to get the maximum power out of the motor?

Also, is it true that the throttle will damage the motor?

I think it depends on what kind of gears you have on your bike. Make sure you have something like an 11-40T rear cassette to be able to go up hills and still retain a fast top speed. As mentioned a few posts ago, you can disable to the speed limit so it'll give you full assist up to about 28mph at a cadence of about 90rpm. If you want to be very leisurely, it'll do about 20mph at a slow cadence of about 60rpm.

 

[casainho]

Can someone please say what is the max TSDZ2 motor internal RPM on normal usage (like running the ebike at 45km/h??)? and how many poles the motor has?? -- I want to calc the max ERPM speed the motor needs to run and so understand the min need PWM frequency...

 

[asterduc]

Hi, I'm new on ES. What a fine community and great source of information.

I would like to convert a couple of dutch classis bikes into ebike using the TSDZ2 midmotor.
Got through the 65 pages over the weekend and I start to like this motor.

Question: the distance from center bracket to the chainring looks like 50 mm.
I would like to bring this down to 40 mm.
From what I can see on pictures is that the TSDZ2 chainring already has an offset, but I don't know how much that is and what possibilities there are to get the chainring even closer. On the attached drawing it looks like the motor sets the limit.

Anybody who can help me with that?
Regards,
Ed.

 

[gggplaya]

Hi, I'm new on ES. What a fine community and great source of information.

I would like to convert a couple of dutch classis bikes into ebike using the TSDZ2 midmotor.
Got through the 65 pages over the weekend and I start to like this motor.

Question: the distance from center bracket to the chainring looks like 50 mm.
I would like to bring this down to 40 mm.
From what I can see on pictures is that the TSDZ2 chainring already has an offset, but I don't know how much that is and what possibilities there are to get the chainring even closer. On the attached drawing it looks like the motor sets the limit.

Anybody who can help me with that?
Regards,
Ed.

offset tsdz2.jpg

I bought this chainring, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow. The factory chainring looks like a stamped peice of steel and it already has an offset to it. I'll be able to compare the offset directly tomorrow. https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/42_Tooth_Narrow%2FWide_CNC_7075_T6_Chainring_%2810mm_offset%29_for_TSDZ2.html

I'm trying to get it as close as possible to the correct chainline with my Nuvinci N380.

 

[John and Cecil]

Hi
I measured the bottom bracket thickness and it's 49.7mm. Very close to you bb of 45. Can you tell me if there is still some space left between your bb and motor casing ?

My 45mm measurement was just an eyeball measurement but it should be close. You are only looking at about 1/10" difference on the bottom so you should be fine. There was extra space, I was even thinking about grinding down the front derailleur track and seeing if the shifter cable could pass through but I decided against it.

 

[John and Cecil]

Hi! I am new here and have read most of this thread. I am seriously considering a 750w 52v tsdz2 for commuting (lots of hills). I get my exercise from other things (running and weightlifting) so the bike is purely for transport. What I am concerned about is that to get the maximum power out of the tsdz2 I would have to pedal so hard that I will work up a sweat in my job clothes. Is this the case?
How much torque do you apply to the pedals in turbo mode to get the maximum power out of the motor?

Also, is it true that the throttle will damage the motor?

Hi, I am new here but I will give you my opinion. I think throttle CAN be bad, or it can be GOOD. I love the throttle and I think it may be better for the motor if used correctly. If you run on full power (turbo) the motor will kick in strong from a start whenever you start pedaling, and if you do not slow your pedaling when shifting it will shift harder. What I like to do is I run on eco (the lowest setting) and then if I feel I want more power after I get moving I shift into a higher assist setting, and when I go up inclines and I need full power I get into the correct gear first and then I use the throttle.

I don't have many miles yet but so far I am finding this to be the best way to ride. Basically I use my legs and some assist to get up to cruising speed and then I use the throttle to cruise. Maybe I am wrong though?

Turbo is practically throttle. You only have to pedal slowly and it kicks in hard. You should probably get a throttle too so when cruising you dont have to pedal at all. If you want to do less pedaling maybe the BBS02 Bafang would be a good choice.

 

[casainho]

Seems that other mid drive motors can detect with a sensor when user shift gears and the motor coasts during a fixed time so the gears without motor doing torque -- is this feature a must have or is ok as it is without it on TSDZ2 motor?

 

[aja]

Seems that other mid drive motors can detect with a sensor when user shift gears and the motor coasts during a fixed time so the gears without motor doing torque -- is this feature a must have or is ok as it is without it on TSDZ2 motor?

Is it easy to implement that feature on the TSDZ2? At the moment I either stop pedalling or pedal a touch backwards (a couple of mm is all) and it stops the motor before I change gear.

 

[aja]

I bought this chainring, it's supposed to arrive tomorrow. The factory chainring looks like a stamped peice of steel and it already has an offset to it. I'll be able to compare the offset directly tomorrow. https://www.electrifybike.com/store/p65/42_Tooth_Narrow%2FWide_CNC_7075_T6_Chainring_%2810mm_offset%29_for_TSDZ2.html

I'm trying to get it as close as possible to the correct chainline with my Nuvinci N380.

Interested to hear how you get on; I need a larger, 52t preferably, chainring as I have a faired recumbent and can pedal at higher speeds without assistance on the flat. For the time being I've just put the chaining on the inside of the spider. I made spacers for the 110 BCD then realised that the chainring hit the motor casing...I can't see that future bike sell any larger sizes however...