New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[bjorsa]

Thanks for the crank arm tips! I googled up on them but it seems nobody´s interested in presenting pictures of them from the top side, so to speak. No way to tell how tight they go. Since I have a lot of clearence between my heel and the crank arm center I actually could get away with a negative q-factor crank arm. Best of all would be if there was a way to modify the J.I.S. square taper interface so it could fit more snuggly against the engine. Wish it was a standard european square taper (just a tad thinner) so I could squeeze a JIS crank arm all the way up, but no such luck.

Are you saying all the mid drive engine cranks, be it Shimano, Bafang or other, keep a low q-factor? Tighter than a straight BMX crank arm?

I include some pics for anybody interested in buying a TSDZ2 and wondering about the q-factor problem and to show what I mean about the crank arm square taper not fitting snuggly enough against the engine:

View attachment 2View attachment 2

EDIT: I have no idea why the first picture shows three times and I can´t seem to get rid of the extras. Apologies.

 

[itchyfoot42]

Triketech, I ordered mine, a 500W 48V model from Auto-ebike. Price was $350 and shipping an additional $60.

Mine was picked up at Auto-ebike on April3, and arrived at an Guangzhou Baiyun International Apt in China on April 5. Since then limbo. I have an EMS tracking number, but it only gets me to the airport, then nothing. No documentation of it leaving. The tracking number has an end code that indicates a shipment to Canada. I have queried Auto-ebike for a timeframe, and about the Canada code, and got copies of three documents, which only verify what I already knew plus "Hi my friend

it is in transit, do not worry!"

I suspect that it is actually coming by boat and that the airport is just a shipping control center. If that is not the case it's probably in Canada somewhere.

Until the TSDZ2 distribution system matures to include a US importer/distributor early adopters will have interesting experiences.

 

[Schnauzer]

I ordered mine directly from Tongsheng, running @ 48V, 350W. I´m pleased with the quick response and general feel of it. Very reminiscent of the Bosch and Yamaha mid drives. Mounted on a stable high-end touring bike it´s speedy.

The torque sensor is optimized for lazy cycling: if I push just a bit the engine goes all in and there is no room for a surge. This is especially noticable if I chose a higher power setting - I usually keep mine in "Tour" mode, which gives a good cycle feel to it - at higher settings the engine simply seems to get more enthusiastic, pouncing too soon, without any real pedaling going on.

As an avid cyclist used to a high cadence I find it tapers off torque too soon. When I get Tour de France on a hill the motor promptly goes lazy on my ass. This encourages me to sort of rest against the engines torque instead of grinding my teeth, which is bad for my sport jock inclinations and ever growing tummy. If there was an easy way to reduce the gearing (I believe it´s 10:1 now) some 20% to make the engine peppier when pushing the tempo, I´d be all ears!

Also, my TSDZ2 bottom bracket (with the torque sensor) gets noisy and creaks a lot whenever I put power into my strokes. The overall feel is a bit soft and inprecise compared to a good Shimano, maybe to be expected but anyways, it worries me quality-wise. Maybe I´ll open it up and see what can be greased, but for now I´m unsure if that section is accessible for a home mechanic. Perhaps if I find spare parts on Aliexpress I´d be less weary. The creaking is loud enough to draw attention from fellow high-brow cyclists.

On a final note, I´m about to experiment with an extra chainring up front and if anybody knows of inner chainrings made for the unit, tapering inwards to improve the chainline, please tell! I ordered standard 110 bcd 50 & 34T rings, I´ll let you know how the front derailleur and chainline holds up.

Cheers!

I notice that you have recently purchased the TSDZ2 mid mount system, i also purchase a bicycle complete with theTSDZ2 about 3 months ago and i have been trying to get the 6km walk function operating. I was wondering, if you have the time to see if you can get the 6km function on your bicycle.


I can turn this function on but i just can't find out what combinations of buttons to push to actually get the bike moving. A number of people have advised me the combination buttons that work for them but i have had no success. I am starting to wonder if the 6km function has not been activate by software at the time it was programmed.

Your help would be greatly appreciated
Cheers

 

[MPM]

Maybe some of the folks in the USA who have bought a TSDZ2, can you answer a couple questions?

Hi Triketech, I bought my TSDZ2 with XH18 display on June 12, 2016 from pswpower.com for $365 including shipping. It came by UPS and I received it June 17.
Meanwhile they offer both the TSDZ2 and shipping (with DHL) for less, same order seems to be $315 today. Probably thanks to the strong dollar Later I needed spare parts, they sell those too and those also arrived pretty fast.

 

[jbalat]

MPM what spares did you need ? Im thinking of ordering one now. They have it for $240US

 

[MPM]

MPM what spares did you need ?

The shaft of the electric motor broke early on, so I ordered a replacement motor. I described it in more detail in older posts in this thread.
Later I shorted the controller (my fault) so I ordered a replacement for that too.
Now things are good. I'm still a bit apprehensive because of that early failure but I really like riding my bike.

 

[mscoot]

Oh, I forgot to mention one thing: the included crank arms together with the bulk on the drive side makes for an absoultely ridiculous q-factor, sqewed heavily to the right. I got some 4 cm to spare to my chainstay and that´s on a tourer with space for big tyres. Anybody who cares about their riding position will have to find some really tight mimimum-q replacement diamond square taper crank. Perhaps something from the BMX market. Or custom. It´s a headache really.

It is wide, but is it that wide? I never really noticed. When I first started using this motor I noticed they were offset to the right a little (about 2 cm). If you could find a right side crank arm that brought this closer to center that would help, perhaps.

 

[mscoot]

As an avid cyclist used to a high cadence I find it tapers off torque too soon. When I get Tour de France on a hill the motor promptly goes lazy on my ass. This encourages me to sort of rest against the engines torque instead of grinding my teeth, which is bad for my sport jock inclinations and ever growing tummy. If there was an easy way to reduce the gearing (I believe it´s 10:1 now) some 20% to make the engine peppier when pushing the tempo, I´d be all ears!

Now this is definately the most annoying thing. It seems you can't have max power from the motor combined with max power from your own body. A replacement gear-reduction kit would be nice so that max torque comes in at about 90-100 rpm and not 80-90.

Also, my TSDZ2 bottom bracket (with the torque sensor) gets noisy and creaks a lot whenever I put power into my strokes. The overall feel is a bit soft and inprecise compared to a good Shimano, maybe to be expected but anyways, it worries me quality-wise. Maybe I´ll open it up and see what can be greased, but for now I´m unsure if that section is accessible for a home mechanic. Perhaps if I find spare parts on Aliexpress I´d be less weary. The creaking is loud enough to draw attention from fellow high-brow cyclists.

Adding some shims to crank taper helps. My motor came with some extra shims for different parts of the motor and my local dealer has got plenty of extra parts in case I need it. If you pop off the rubber seal behind the right side crank arm, you can put in som extra grease and the creaking will go away for a while. I think the creaking comes from bad bearings, and sloppy tolerances, so it'll probably come back after a while unless you start replacing bearings and shims. Other than that, it is a simple 30 minute job (if you are slow) to just open the motor casings from the left side, pull out the motor and add a bit of lithium grease to the internals. Browse backwards in this thread for pictures and how to.

 

[MPM]

It is wide, but is it that wide? I never really noticed.

I'm with mscoot here. I never noticed anything wrong with the Q factor. I can see an offset to the right. But it looks small enough that I would be surprised if a regular cyclist would feel it while riding.

Maybe I'm more tolerant than some. My bike has a kid seat hanging from the handlebars, so I ride like a dork with my knees wide and it all feels fine to me.

 

[bjorsa]

A replacement gear-reduction kit would be nice so that max torque comes in at about 90-100 rpm and not 80-90.

As it stands I believe max torque sits at a sunday cyclist 70 rpm or so. That´s why I ordered a 48V version, hoping it would run higher rpms, but I think mine spins the same as the 36. I don´t know what over-voltage it could tolerate either. (I want to be careful about it. In fact, I never use the two highest settings and I make sure to run through my gears.) Looking at pictures of the internals surely a gear reduction kit should be easy to manufacture. Let´s keep our eyes and ears open!

Adding some shims to crank taper helps.

Thanks for the tip!! You wouldn´t happen to know what kind of shims I need? Otherwise I´d have to open the motor just to measure the shim req.

 

[bjorsa]

PhaenTa posted this picture. Looks like the gears could be replaced to tweak the reduction?

 

[bjorsa]

Browse backwards in this thread for pictures and how to.

Reading through MPM´s posts on the internals we don´t get to see him open the bottom bracket section? Thing is, the motor itself makes no creaking noises, it´s when I push the pedals. Doesn´t matter if the enginge is turned off. So I have a nagging feeling I´m being extra daft now, but you know, better dumb than sorry.

 

[mscoot]

Browse backwards in this thread for pictures and how to.

Reading through MPM´s posts on the internals we don´t get to see him open the bottom bracket section? Thing is, the motor itself makes no creaking noises, it´s when I push the pedals. Doesn´t matter if the enginge is turned off. So I have a nagging feeling I´m being extra daft now, but you know, better dumb than sorry.

I got that creaking too a few weeks ago. I think it boils down to sloppy bearings around the bottom bracket. There's probably enough play there to let the plastic cover on that one-way-bearing scratch against something. So by applying grease behind that central rubber cover you're only silencing the symptoms of sloppy bearings.

Here's an italian video describing how to remove that central bit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqAP1NZvNPo

I'm not sure what sort of bearing sizes sit there. If they're standard sizes we could probably replace them with some proper, tight, high quality bearings from the local hardware shop.

Regarding the shims, I only used the ones that came with the kit, so I know nothing about the sizing. But I could fit two shims behind that circlip on the right side of the motor when it was brand new.

Seeing as you are in Sweden, you could probably just order them directly from my local (e)bike shop: http://www.strommenelsykkel.no/ . My impression is that he's got plenty of spares for this motor. Give him a call. He's a nice guy: http://www.strommenelsykkel.no/

 

[jbalat]

So preferred grease is lithium grease right.
How do you know if the bits need shimming, is there movement if you pull on the shaft or gear in and out ?

As for the creaking from one of the video it looks as though the bearing that supports the end of the crank axle is too far back, or it could just be a bad fit of the crank onto the axle (and thus the Q factor) is it worth filing the square cutout in the crank so it can be pushed in further ?

In the video the guy replaced and axle with a longer one ? Are there spare axles you can get for this thing ?

Are there any motors available in Australia ?

 

[mscoot]

In the video the guy describes how they adapt the motor to a fatbike crank. Same procedure to remove and reinstall the original axle.

I just re-shimmed the axle on my motor now. Thing is I was having some up and down movement in axle as well as abit of sideways (in-out) play. The axle-bearing on the left side was quite loose (like flopping around on the axle). The right side bearing was originally held in place by just a circlip with a shim behind it. The bearing could move maybe 1mm along the axle and stopped right at the teeth that couple the axle with the torque sensor. This didn't seem right to me, so I moved a couple of shims from one side of the bearing to the other and added a second circlip . As it was tighter now, I could only fit two of the three shims I previously had installed on the right side of axle. I haven't taken it for a ride yet, but hopefully this has helped tighten up my sloppy crank. I guess I'll have to report back if this didn't work out.

The creaking I was experiencing was because of the brown plastic covering the one-way bearing wasn't seated properly. A few months ago I opened that bearing up to add a bit of grease and didn't push the cover properly in place. With a bit more force today, it clicked right into place.

So I guess this will be my reguler 3000 km service now. Shims and grease it is.

I'm a little surprised stuff wears down this quickly (should I be?). But in any case, this motor is really simple to work on and my local bike shop has the spares that I need. This job, which also included greasing up and shimming the nylon gear behind the actual motor was done in a little less than an hour with the whole lump still mounted to the bike.

So preferred grease is lithium grease right.
How do you know if the bits need shimming, is there movement if you pull on the shaft or gear in and out ?

As for the creaking from one of the video it looks as though the bearing that supports the end of the crank axle is too far back, or it could just be a bad fit of the crank onto the axle (and thus the Q factor) is it worth filing the square cutout in the crank so it can be pushed in further ?

In the video the guy replaced and axle with a longer one ? Are there spare axles you can get for this thing ?

Are there any motors available in Australia ?

 

[jbalat]

A mate and I are keen to get a couple of these for our full suspension MTBs for trail riding. Do you think these units will be up to the occasional jump and descent? Posts with broken axels and wobbly bearings have us a bit worried about the robustness of these units. Should we get the BB2s instead or hold off until they sort out the issues?

 

[Instigater]

Have anyone hotrodded this middrive? There is nothing wrong with 15.4 A @ 44V, still I would like to have it even more happier as now I ride mostly in most assistance mode. There is really no use for 1st level of assistance on fatbike beachcruiser. My battery lasts 55 kilometers on one charge in max assistance. I would like smaller range with more fun to cover it. Preferably halve the range and increase cruising speed from 30 to 40 km/h.

 

[Elmundopalladio]

Hi there
I've been reading this post with interest for a while. I'm just about to press the button and order a TSDZ2 for my commuter bike. I have a quick question to those of you who have installed the motor. I noticed on the online installation instructions that the motor needs to be secured back to the frame to prevent rotation. I have a Moulton with rear suspension and am not sure this will work due to the slight flex when cycling. The BBS01B doesn't require this and has a very similar mounting. In your opinions is this tie critical to the TSDZ2's performance?

Thanks

 

[r0mko]

Hi there
In your opinions is this tie critical to the TSDZ2's performance?
Thanks

Hi! Absolutely not. I also have two TSDZ2-upgraded full-suspension bikes and there's no option to install this securing part. Never experienced any trouble with it. Just tighten the motor well and use rubber shims.

 

[mscoot]

Hi there
In your opinions is this tie critical to the TSDZ2's performance?
Thanks

Hi! Absolutely not. I also have two TSDZ2-upgraded full-suspension bikes and there's no option to install this securing part. Never experienced any trouble with it. Just tighten the motor well and use rubber shims.

Rubber shims? Where did you put those and why? Soundproofing?

To fit the tsdz2 to my cargo bike I had to use a dremel to remove the whole securing part from the rear of the motor casing. It's perfectly tight agains the frame, but I suspect the tightness makes the motors hum resonate in the frame. Mine is at least quite a bit more noisy than others.

 

[r0mko]

Rubber shims? Where did you put those and why? Soundproofing?

Right, for soundproofing, but this was not a main goal (but it still works though). Rubber shims just allow a bit more tightness.

 

[mscoot]

Rubber shims? Where did you put those and why? Soundproofing?

Right, for soundproofing, but this was not a main goal (but it still works though). Rubber shims just allow a bit more tightness.

Interesting. I put som rubber on the underside of the bottom bracket. That helped a little. But I guess I'll have to try rubber shims too.

 

[jbalat]

Guys just got 2 motors in the mail in one week from PSWpower. Great delivery.
Batteries all ready to go as well 3p10s ga cells. Only 190x61x80 @ 1.64kg

will be tracking my build. Hopefully it works out well

FB link if you want to join in
https://www.facebook.com/groups/193581737807033/

 

[Elmundopalladio]

Hi there
In your opinions is this tie critical to the TSDZ2's performance?
Thanks

Hi! Absolutely not. I also have two TSDZ2-upgraded full-suspension bikes and there's no option to install this securing part. Never experienced any trouble with it. Just tighten the motor well and use rubber shims.

Thanks
Do you have an image of the shims? Are they wedged in-between the motor housing and the frame? Should I go with a similar solution to the BBS01B bracket fixing?

 

[r0mko]

Thanks
Do you have an image of the shims? Are they wedged in-between the motor housing and the frame? Should I go with a similar solution to the BBS01B bracket fixing?

They are made out of an old inner tube. I placed 3 of them from each side of the bottom bracket part of the motor. Not sure if it helped a lot in terms of suppressing noise, but indeed it allowed more tight fixing.

By the way, I have a completely disassembled sample of the TSDZ2. I can make photos of and post them here to assuage doubts about its robustness and build quality. Looking ahead I would say that I am pretty impressed. Why I had to buy another motor is completely another story. At least I now know weak places in its construction and how to perform repair without risk of further unrecoverable damage to the torque sensor.