New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[jbalat]

You da man.
Thanks must try this soon and increased amps and cadence.. should feel almost as good as my trek Bosch cx !

 

[Uturn]

TSDZ2 advanced features using LCD3 : https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... nteng_lcd3
is the LCD5 compatible with the LCD3?
I would prefer this one as it's more compact. BMSbattery's infos do not say it is any different.

 

[casainho]

TSDZ2 advanced features using LCD3 : https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbuck ... nteng_lcd3
is the LCD5 compatible with the LCD3?Bild 2018-06-11 um 12.30.36.jpg
I would prefer this one as it's more compact. BMSbattery's infos do not say it is any different.

It misses a field to show motor power and some others. But I understand what you mean and I agree. Also I already looked at the hardware and it is just the same or almost. The big difference is the LCD mask that is different and shows less information -- if there was more developers helping, we could quick make the firmware for both and maybe focus on that one.

I own that one also and I like it.

I am planning to finish the implementation of TSDZ2 LCD functionalities for LCD3: is missing the option to choose wheel size, max speed and units type. I want to continue develop the firmware for the motor controler but I want to use LCD3 and I plan to do it in a way the firmware will work with original LCD as also LCD3 with the added advanced features.

 

[shaddi]

Just ordered a second XH18-LCD for development purposes

 

[troebi]

Hi,
thank you for this good thread and all the engineers who develop the motor and display SW.
With the original XH18 display the headlights and the backlights can be switched on/off. May this function be also active with the LCD3/5?

I just ordered a LCD3 because of the new funktions and the motor informaiton.
Actually I ride a TSDZ2 36V with 11s.

Regards
troebi

 

[casainho]

Hi,
thank you for this good thread and all the engineers who develop the motor and display SW.
With the original XH18 display the headlights and the backlights can be switched on/off. May this function be also active with the LCD3/5?

I just ordered a LCD3 because of the new funktions and the motor informaiton.
Actually I ride a TSDZ2 36V with 11s.

Ok I will implement this week. Also I need this week the walk assist level.

 

[casainho]

With the original XH18 display the headlights and the backlights can be switched on/off. May this function be also active with the LCD3/5?

Headlights and backlights are treated as only 1 light, right? the controller just enable one signal and that both lights will turn off or on, right?

On LCD3/5 original firmware, a long press on the up button will turn on/off the lights as also the LCD back light.
Long press and then keeping pressed the down button, activates walk assist mode.
I will implement like that as it seems good for me and even better that follows original behavior.

 

[casainho]

With the original XH18 display the headlights and the backlights can be switched on/off. May this function be also active with the LCD3/5?

Done:

void lights_state (void)
{
  if (get_button_up_long_click_event ())
  {
    clear_button_up_long_click_event ();

    if (ui8_lights_state == 0)
    {
      ui8_lights_state = 1;
      lcd_enable_lights_symbol (1);
      lcd_set_backlight_intensity (5); // TODO: implement backlight intensity control
      motor_controller_data.ui8_lights |= 1;
    }
    else
    {
      ui8_lights_state = 0;
      lcd_enable_lights_symbol (0);
      lcd_set_backlight_intensity (0);
      motor_controller_data.ui8_lights &= ~1;
    }
  }
}

 

[puneetp]

Question: how much is the spacing between motor and crank for TSDZ2?

Will the TSDZ2 fit my bike. Its not clear to me if the spacing between motor and crank is sufficient.
Crank is ~63mm and the crank to outside is 10-11mm
I would appreciate if you can comment about this!




Thinking of buying this unit http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=1809

 

[mscoot]

It's been interesting to follow the development of the opensource firmware. I'm hoping for a version to test with the xh18 display! It would be interesting to be able to see how much power in Wh and how many watts the motor is using at the moment. Heck, even a predicted range based on the last 20 kms or so would be usefull.

A few thoughts for extra features:
The walk assist is painfully slow (4 km/h not exactly walking speed), not easy to use and way too weak. I have to twist and hold the grip for it do barely push my 40kg cargo bike along on a flat paved road. There's a jolt when it starts, and sometimes it jolts so hard that I loose grip of the twistgrip and I have to twist and hold for another second for it to start up again. I wish for tweak that would push it along at a true 6 km/h (to be within the EU-pedelec legal limit) up a slight incline. It would be nice to get rid of that initial jolt too and perhaps reconfigure the way you start the walk assist. I have seen other pedelecs start it with a double push of a button without the need to hold anything in.

For me, the 250w 36v motor is powerful enough to haul a heavy cargobike with a decent load at good speed. I don't need it to go faster, but it would be nice to tweak how the power is delivered. The jolt at startup is annoying not only in walk assist, but in all modes. Some kind of power ramping would be good. I'm getting close to 8000 kms on my odo now, and I have yet to break the blue gear, but that start up jolt has always worried me. Especially when I'm hauling a lot of weight.

The cadence is way too low to get an effective combination of motor+human power, but we all know that. If it could start tapering off at 90 or 100 rpm, I'd be happy. Here's an experiment I've been doing with my heart rate and cadence-sensor connected to my garmin: I'm using an Alfine 11 igh hub on this bike and it will shift up under load, but not under a heavy load. If I'm pushing too hard on the pedals (and thus telling the motor to do the same), the hub keeps holding the same gear and pops in the next one once the power eases off. So, pedaling along with constant leg power at increasingly higher cadence, it seems the hub pops in the next gear at about 80-85 rpm. That's pretty consistent and works fine when pedaling along at a leasurely pace, but it is pretty annoying if I also need to use a serious amount of human power to get up a hill. In the same way, my average heart rate goes up over time at low cadences, because I need to use more human power at an uneffeciently low cadence, because that is where the motor seems to be most powerful.


I really love this motor (apart for the slight noise). This weekend it hauled me, my bike and about 30 kg of beer and camping gear climbing 1200 meters over nearly 60 kms of loose gravel on a 13 ah battery. During lunch I think we managed to put 2 ah back into the battery, but I still had juice on the battery when we arrived. It really is an efficient motor, but with a better firmware I believe it can be even more efficient!

Question: how much is the spacing between motor and crank for TSDZ2?

Will the TSDZ2 fit my bike. Its not clear to me if the spacing between motor and crank is sufficient.
Crank is ~63mm and the crank to outside is 10-11mm
I would appreciate if you can comment about this!

That should fit. My cargo bike had a lot more metal around the BB and I still got it to fit. But re-route those cables, though.

 

[casainho]

For the ones interested on XH18-LCD:

I am sooo glad for chosing the TSDZ2. I'm a big fan of open Software, so keep up the good work!!

Any chance to get some custom firmware for the XH18-LCD? I need to open it up and take some pictures..

greets from Munich!
Karl

And for the XH18-LCD, I opened it a while ago.
Unfortunately, the PCB is covered in resin or so. So, not easy...


At the moment, I have the idea to use a raspberry pi zero and a small/cheap lcd.
First just to show the additional information, maybe later also as a replacement...

Well, at least it uses the same STM8 and that means is programmable, unlike the V-LCD5.

I think there are 2 vital things that need to be done:
- fully remove the resin to get and analyse the schematic, as also get the reference for the ICs like the LCD controller IC
- get to know where is the STM8 programming headed and see if an user would be able to easy remove the resin and solder the programming header

Clearly, KT-LCD3/5 are much easier for development and for final user to program. I will continue my focus on KT-LCD3 and maybe in future try the be KT-LCD5.

 

[John and Cecil]

Question: how much is the spacing between motor and crank for TSDZ2?

Will the TSDZ2 fit my bike. Its not clear to me if the spacing between motor and crank is sufficient.
Crank is ~63mm and the crank to outside is 10-11mm
I would appreciate if you can comment about this!

Thinking of buying this unit http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=1809

Hi, I am not exactly sure what you are asking about. The blue bottom portion of your frame that contains the crank assembly is the bottom bracket - or bb. The tsdz2 fits most bikes with a bb width of 68mm - 73mm. If your bb is 73mm wide you might want to order from somewhere where they have a way of selecting the bb width in the checkout process, otherwise you will have to get 2 small (longer) bolts and spacers elsewhere. I know pswpower has an option for the 73mm bb and they do send the longer bolts and extra spacers along with the motor. If your bb width is 63mm perhaps it would work, I would think 63mm might be the smallest bb possible considering the spacer size but maybe someone else can answer. Also, unless you already have a battery you might want to consider going with the 52v 750w motor. These motors really like the extra volts provided by a 52v battery over a 48v battery.

Please note that your front derailleur cable travels around the bottom of the bb. I see you highlighted the dimension between crank shaft and motor housing. It is very tight. You will very likely need to remove that cable to install the motor. I did the same with mine and I went from a triple front chainring to just one in the front. I do not mind though, the motor really makes 24 gears useless and I feel that 8 is enough. I don't know the exact measurement but perhaps it might be possible to get a cable through that space if necessary provided you can trim away at the plastic cable bracket.

I hope this was helpful to you. If you explain why you are asking and be more clear with your bike's bb width we may be able to assist you further.

 

[Hillhater]

........you might want to consider going with the 52v 750w motor. These motors really like the extra volts provided by a 52v battery over a 48v battery.....

?? Are you saying there is a "52v". specific motor , different to the 48v motor ?
I have seen (ordered) a 48v, 750W kit, .but did not see an option for a 52v kit.??
Is the low volt cut off on the 48v controller 43v as standard ?
Is there any maximum voltage cut off in the standard firmware ?
Regarding chainrings,....why do all these mid drive motors ( inc Bafang and others), have their gear train on the RH side ?
If it were on the LH side, it would be possible to retain the full 3 ring sprocket set as original for those that might want to go mountain climbing.?

 

[John and Cecil]

?? Are you saying there is a "52v". specific motor , different to the 48v motor ?
I have seen (ordered) a 48v, 750W kit, .but did not see an option for a 52v kit.??
Is the low volt cut off on the 48v controller 43v as standard ?
Is there any maximum voltage cut off in the standard firmware ?
Regarding chainrings,....why do all these mid drive motors ( inc Bafang and others), have their gear train on the RH side ?
If it were on the LH side, it would be possible to retain the full 3 ring sprocket set as original for those that might want to go mountain climbing.?

The 52v motor is fairly new, from what has been stated earlier here it is the same motor and controller but it has a firmware that supports 14s batteries. The 48v motor has a max volt cutoff around 56v. i think it is my battery that cuts out at 43/42v, I believe others have stated the 48v controller cuts out at 39v. With a custom made cable others have been able to hack the firmware to remove the voltage cutoffs.

I suggest a wide ratio rear. All those gears are only necessary when the battery is dead. The motor makes having a gear for every 1-2mph top speed pretty much useless and the shifting is annoying as it is not as smooth as shifting a regular bike. Wide ratio gearing would be nice for climbing, and choose a front chainring that just gets by with your max speed so the bike is geared a little lower if you will be doing a lot of climbing.

 

[John and Cecil]

Well yesterday I was able to get my motor to run at 56.3v. My max voltage cutoff is definitely going up over time. When I first got my motor I could pedal it around the moon and the motor would not kick on at 56.3v. Am I the only one that is seeing this strange controller behavior? I am going to keep charging my battery now over 56v and see if I can gradually over time get it to work at 56.5v? IS THIS THING ALIVE???? :lol:

 

[AWD]

"The 52v motor is fairly new, from what has been stated earlier here it is the same motor and controller "

Not really new as 52v has been available all along. Although the motor is the same the 52v controller is different than the 48v. Brass gear is recommended with the 52v.

 

[casainho]

"The 52v motor is fairly new, from what has been stated earlier here it is the same motor and controller "

Not really new as 52v has been available all along. Although the motor is the same the 52v controller is different than the 48v. Brass gear is recommended with the 52v.

No, the controller is just the same and the controller can work for a 24V battery pack up to 52V battery pack. The firmware is also the same and the only thing that changes is the EEPROM values that keeps the settings for that low voltage and max voltage.

You can change by yourself the settings, read more here: https://opensourceebikefirmware.bitbucket.io/kunteng_lcd3/TSDZ2_configure_battery_voltage_and_motor_current.html

 

[casainho]

A few thoughts for extra features:
The walk assist is painfully slow (4 km/h not exactly walking speed), not easy to use and way too weak. I have to twist and hold the grip for it do barely push my 40kg cargo bike along on a flat paved road. There's a jolt when it starts, and sometimes it jolts so hard that I loose grip of the twistgrip and I have to twist and hold for another second for it to start up again. I wish for tweak that would push it along at a true 6 km/h (to be within the EU-pedelec legal limit) up a slight incline. It would be nice to get rid of that initial jolt too and perhaps reconfigure the way you start the walk assist. I have seen other pedelecs start it with a double push of a button without the need to hold anything in.

I just tested walk assist that I implemented on LCD3.
LCD3 shows to me a max of 6 amps when I try to block the wheel so with a 48V battery that is about 300W for walk assist mode. Also shows wheel speed of 5.6km/h.

I didn't notice any jolt but it was tested on a light empty ebike.

I implemented walk assist mode by first long press on down button and then keep it pressing to keep active the walk assist. That is the way that makes sense to me because of safety reasons. But anyway, firmware is OpenSource and anyone is free to fork the github repository and implement their own preferred changes (maybe even make that 2 different behaviors as options and submit that change to the project!).

 

[puneetp]

Question: how much is the spacing between motor and crank for TSDZ2?

Will the TSDZ2 fit my bike. Its not clear to me if the spacing between motor and crank is sufficient.
Crank is ~63mm and the crank to outside is 10-11mm
I would appreciate if you can comment about this!

Thinking of buying this unit http://auto-ebike.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_43&products_id=1809

Hi, I am not exactly sure what you are asking about. The blue bottom portion of your frame that contains the crank assembly is the bottom bracket - or bb. The tsdz2 fits most bikes with a bb width of 68mm - 73mm. If your bb is 73mm wide you might want to order from somewhere where they have a way of selecting the bb width in the checkout process, otherwise you will have to get 2 small (longer) bolts and spacers elsewhere. I know pswpower has an option for the 73mm bb and they do send the longer bolts and extra spacers along with the motor. If your bb width is 63mm perhaps it would work, I would think 63mm might be the smallest bb possible considering the spacer size but maybe someone else can answer. Also, unless you already have a battery you might want to consider going with the 52v 750w motor. These motors really like the extra volts provided by a 52v battery over a 48v battery.

Please note that your front derailleur cable travels around the bottom of the bb. I see you highlighted the dimension between crank shaft and motor housing. It is very tight. You will very likely need to remove that cable to install the motor. I did the same with mine and I went from a triple front chainring to just one in the front. I do not mind though, the motor really makes 24 gears useless and I feel that 8 is enough. I don't know the exact measurement but perhaps it might be possible to get a cable through that space if necessary provided you can trim away at the plastic cable bracket.

I hope this was helpful to you. If you explain why you are asking and be more clear with your bike's bb width we may be able to assist you further.

Thanks John for answering!
Yes my question was about the distance between the motor and crank and if my cables (and their guides) will obstruct the install ?

I see that it will be a tight fit for the cable travel around the bottom of the crank. I have two cables one which goes to the rear derailer and other to the front. I can let go of the front derailer and rear one I can route through a sleeve.

 

[eyebyesickle]

"The 52v motor is fairly new, from what has been stated earlier here it is the same motor and controller "

Not really new as 52v has been available all along. Although the motor is the same the 52v controller is different than the 48v. Brass gear is recommended with the 52v.

What is different about the 52v controller? It is the same hardware... just programming difference... you can use either the 36v or 48v style motor depending on the cadence you want...

 

[kfong]

casainho, great work. Just finished this thread. Have not been active for a while and needed to finish my bafang build. Now thanks to this thread, I will be throwing that out for a real torque sensor setup. The open source and FOC really kicks it in for me. What display do you recommend I order? I still need to build out the custom battery pack so I'm not in any hurry if software development isn't complete. My timeline is in the fall. Have my other ebikes that I rely on. This will be my backup single track trail bike.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thanks John for answering!
Yes my question was about the distance between the motor and crank and if my cables (and their guides) will obstruct the install ?

I see that it will be a tight fit for the cable travel around the bottom of the crank. I have two cables one which goes to the rear derailer and other to the front. I can let go of the front derailer and rear one I can route through a sleeve.

A sleeve might fit through there. I was able to crisscross a hd zip tie in there. I think if possible it might be better to route the cable so it does not pass through that area. It might heat up the sleeve in there too. Also, maybe the rear mounting bracket (where the motor bolts to the frame and keeps it from rotating) might end up being in the way. I did not use mine because I have full suspension with no place to mount the rear bracket.

Maybe someone else has already routed a cable through the space between the motor housing and the bb and can help.

 

[Hillhater]

Regarding chainrings,....why do all these mid drive motors ( inc Bafang and others), have their gear train on the RH side ?
If it were on the LH side, it would be possible to retain the full 3 ring sprocket set as original for those that might want to go mountain climbing.?

I suggest a wide ratio rear. All those gears are only necessary when the battery is dead. The motor makes having a gear for every 1-2mph top speed pretty much useless and the shifting is annoying as it is not as smooth as shifting a regular bike. Wide ratio gearing would be nice for climbing, and choose a front chainring that just gets by with your max speed so the bike is geared a little lower if you will be doing a lot of climbing.

Thanks J&C, but that is always a compromise, and limits the choice of equipment for chain gear.
But whilst a single ring front will work for most road and trail situations,.... there are still times when off road you need that 23T front ring and 36T rear to haul through some steep track, rocks etc......yet still cruise back on the road with the 48/12 combo too.!
However , i have seen a dual front chainring set up for the Bafang i believe
I was just curious as to why the motor gearing is always on the RH side ?...im sure there is an obvious answer.
Its probably simpler to configure the crank clutch there ? ..but not impossible to have it on the left.

 

[John and Cecil]

Thanks J&C, but that is always a compromise, and limits the choice of equipment for chain gear.
But whilst a single ring front will work for most road and trail situations,.... there are still times when off road you need that 23T front ring and 36T rear to haul through some steep track, rocks etc......yet still cruise back on the road with the 48/12 combo too.!
However , i have seen a dual front chainring set up for the Bafang i believe
I was just curious as to why the motor gearing is always on the RH side ?...im sure there is an obvious answer.
Its probably simpler to configure the crank clutch there ? ..but not impossible to have it on the left.

Gearing takes up space, how would you slide the motor through the bb with something on both sides of the shaft?

Assuming 26" x 2.25" tires your 48-23 front with 12-36 rear would put your high gear max speed at 90 rpm = 28.5mph, and you lowest gear max speed at 90rpm = 4.5mph. Now if you went with a 42 front and 11-50 rear your max speed would be 27mph highest and 6mph lowest.

If you can mount the derailler and cable you can run a dual chainring, others have done so. They even make a stock dual chainring for the tsdz2 which is for sale on alibaba. But do you really need 4.5? if you can get away with 1.5 mph less in high and 1.5mph more in low you can go with 11 speeds, and it would make shifting much easier. I prefer well spaced gears and simple shifting due to the added trouble of needing to clutch the motor or pausing your pedaling.

 

[sysrq]

It's been interesting to follow the development of the opensource firmware. I'm hoping for a version to test with the xh18 display! It would be interesting to be able to see how much power in Wh and how many watts the motor is using at the moment. Heck, even a predicted range based on the last 20 kms or so would be usefull.

A few thoughts for extra features:
The walk assist is painfully slow (4 km/h not exactly walking speed), not easy to use and way too weak. I have to twist and hold the grip for it do barely push my 40kg cargo bike along on a flat paved road. There's a jolt when it starts, and sometimes it jolts so hard that I loose grip of the twistgrip and I have to twist and hold for another second for it to start up again. I wish for tweak that would push it along at a true 6 km/h (to be within the EU-pedelec legal limit) up a slight incline. It would be nice to get rid of that initial jolt too and perhaps reconfigure the way you start the walk assist. I have seen other pedelecs start it with a double push of a button without the need to hold anything in.

For me, the 250w 36v motor is powerful enough to haul a heavy cargobike with a decent load at good speed. I don't need it to go faster, but it would be nice to tweak how the power is delivered. The jolt at startup is annoying not only in walk assist, but in all modes. Some kind of power ramping would be good. I'm getting close to 8000 kms on my odo now, and I have yet to break the blue gear, but that start up jolt has always worried me. Especially when I'm hauling a lot of weight.

The cadence is way too low to get an effective combination of motor+human power, but we all know that. If it could start tapering off at 90 or 100 rpm, I'd be happy. Here's an experiment I've been doing with my heart rate and cadence-sensor connected to my garmin: I'm using an Alfine 11 igh hub on this bike and it will shift up under load, but not under a heavy load. If I'm pushing too hard on the pedals (and thus telling the motor to do the same), the hub keeps holding the same gear and pops in the next one once the power eases off. So, pedaling along with constant leg power at increasingly higher cadence, it seems the hub pops in the next gear at about 80-85 rpm. That's pretty consistent and works fine when pedaling along at a leasurely pace, but it is pretty annoying if I also need to use a serious amount of human power to get up a hill. In the same way, my average heart rate goes up over time at low cadences, because I need to use more human power at an uneffeciently low cadence, because that is where the motor seems to be most powerful.


I really love this motor (apart for the slight noise). This weekend it hauled me, my bike and about 30 kg of beer and camping gear climbing 1200 meters over nearly 60 kms of loose gravel on a 13 ah battery. During lunch I think we managed to put 2 ah back into the battery, but I still had juice on the battery when we arrived. It really is an efficient motor, but with a better firmware I believe it can be even more efficient!

Question: how much is the spacing between motor and crank for TSDZ2?

Will the TSDZ2 fit my bike. Its not clear to me if the spacing between motor and crank is sufficient.
Crank is ~63mm and the crank to outside is 10-11mm
I would appreciate if you can comment about this!

That should fit. My cargo bike had a lot more metal around the BB and I still got it to fit. But re-route those cables, though.

There are a lot of benefits when using spur gear over helical output gear.