New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[r0mko]

I've installed a brass replacement gear to my TSDZ2 and oh man it sounds just awful. I've not expected it to be so ridiculously loud. I thought that it will make the whining sound louder, but in fact it hasn't changed. It makes grinding or rubbing noise so all the people nearby turn their heads.

I've ordered a new blue nylon gear, because my old is worn out and also makes an annoying whining sound. What kind of grease do you guys recommend to apply to the nylon?

Something is definitely wrong, I run a brass gear in one of my bikes and it changed the frequency of the wine but it really isn't louder or worse. You must have a bad brass gear or something else is wrong or it was assembled incorrectly. I changed my gear to a brass gear because the one way bearing in the blue gear went bad and I needed to replace it right away and didn't have a blue gear available. I would take it back apart and see what's going on. Did you grease it up adequately with the correct Grease? My tsdz2 is on a hand cycle and it's right in front of my face so I definitely notice noise that you normally wouldn't when it's down at the bottom of a bike.

Apparently there were two reasons of the ridiculous noise. Firstly, gap between gear and motor housing is too small, and the gear was rubbing the motor case. One washer wasn't enough so I put two, and then the grinding noise gone, but gear whine sound remained unacceptably loud and rattly.

The other reason was the fact that the drive gear of my motor appears to be worn out. The teeth became razor sharp, I literally cut my finger. So I took the rotor from my new 48V motor (it went through around 1200 km before I switched to a setup with a 36V motor on a 48V battery) and put it into my old stator with 36V windings and a temperature sensor. The teeth of the rotor from a 48V motor are much thicker and more round. Also I replaced the brass gear back to blue plastic one just to be sure that my new rotor won't get damaged.
Just made a short test ride. The motor is now eerily silent... I'm happy!

 

[jeff.page.rides]

I've installed a brass replacement gear to my TSDZ2 and oh man it sounds just awful. I've not expected it to be so ridiculously loud. I thought that it will make the whining sound louder, but in fact it hasn't changed. It makes grinding or rubbing noise so all the people nearby turn their heads.

I've ordered a new blue nylon gear, because my old is worn out and also makes an annoying whining sound. What kind of grease do you guys recommend to apply to the nylon?

Something is definitely wrong, I run a brass gear in one of my bikes and it changed the frequency of the wine but it really isn't louder or worse. You must have a bad brass gear or something else is wrong or it was assembled incorrectly. I changed my gear to a brass gear because the one way bearing in the blue gear went bad and I needed to replace it right away and didn't have a blue gear available. I would take it back apart and see what's going on. Did you grease it up adequately with the correct Grease? My tsdz2 is on a hand cycle and it's right in front of my face so I definitely notice noise that you normally wouldn't when it's down at the bottom of a bike.

Apparently there were two reasons of the ridiculous noise. Firstly, gap between gear and motor housing is too small, and the gear was rubbing the motor case. One washer wasn't enough so I put two, and then the grinding noise gone, but gear whine sound remained unacceptably loud and rattly.
APC_1311lex_2K copy.jpg
The other reason was the fact that the drive gear of my motor appears to be worn out. The teeth became razor sharp, I literally cut my finger. So I took the rotor from my new 48V motor (it went through around 1200 km before I switched to a setup with a 36V motor on a 48V battery) and put it into my old stator with 36V windings and a temperature sensor. The teeth of the rotor from a 48V motor are much thicker and more round. Also I replaced the brass gear back to blue plastic one just to be sure that my new rotor won't get damaged.
Just made a short test ride. The motor is now eerily silent... I'm happy!
APC_1335lex_2K.jpg

Thanks for a report on what it took to fix your wine. It should help others when they have the same problem.

 

[RicMcK]

Does anyone have a link (AliExpress) to the sprag clutch removal tool shown in the repair manual?
Thanks

 

[Andrew707]

I just installed TSDZ2 on my bike and I'm pretty sure tightened everything right but when actually pedalling looks like the motor is a bit wobbly. To be fair, when installing it looked like my bottom bracket diameter was a little bit too wide for the motor. Previously my bike had FSA Mega EVO bottom bracket. What kind of adapter/spacer am I missing to make the motor fit snuggly?

 

[sbartle]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

Cheers,
Shaun.

 

[casainho]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

See the wiki and you will find a lot of information. Install our developed OpenSource firmware and you will be able to use any battery voltage, choose the max battery and motor currents and current ramp, and even it measures automatically the battery internal resistance - with very good SOC estimation!! Also it implements FOC and so motor torque and battery range.

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki

 

[casainho]

New firmware: TSDZ2 cadence increase from 90 to 120 RPM as also motor power "amplification" on this same high cadence

You guys get ready for the most advanced and powerful TSDZ2 firmware!!

The big new feature on this version 1.0.0 is the "amplification" of cadence and motor power in the range from 80 to 120RPM!! previous, the motor power would start to decrease at around cadence 80 and be zero at 90, meaning no motor assistance at all over cadence 90RPM. Now, you will get assistance all way up to cadence 120RPM.
Note that this considers a battery with the same voltage as the motor, like a 36V battery with a 36V motor or 48V battery with 48V motor. Even in the cases of using a 48V battery with 36V motor, the cadence is still increased up to 120RPM with most possible optimized efficiency.

This is the first time I made the version as 1.0.0 because all major features about TSDZ2 motor control are now implemented like FOC and Field Weakening. Also on the display side, I don't plan any new big changes.
There certainly features that can be added in future versions like 1.1.0 and polish the current ones, and I plan to do that.

Changelog from previous stable release v0.8.0:
- increase motor assistance as also pedal cadence up to 120RPM (previous limit was around 85RPM) and for this was need to:
-- UART communications frequency is increased twice to save the processing time needed to implement following points
-- increased PWM frequency from 15.6kHz to 19 kHz
-- implement Field Weakening
-- configuration to enable/disable Field Weakening as it brings a loss of efficiency at high cadence value over 90RPM, possible a loss of 25%
- added coast brake ADC sensitivity configuration: the TSDZ2 coast brake version should now fully work on this firmware version
- added configuration for cadence fast stop mode, which is enabled by default. Enable for regular bicycles and disable for some full suspension bicycles
- ebike control loop now runs at twice the frequency in the hope to make system a bit more responsive (tested by vshitikov)
- added Wh/km variable to be shown on custom fields and also on the graph

Download and follow the full instructions here: https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/Color_LCD/releases/tag/860C_850C_SW102_v1.0.0-alpha.1

 

[NexusG]

Thanks you casainho for your great work and contribution to the project
I'm now willing to make the big step and buy a 860C to use this version

 

[sbartle]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

See the wiki and you will find a lot of information. Install our developed OpenSource firmware and you will be able to use any battery voltage, choose the max battery and motor currents and current ramp, and even it measures automatically the battery internal resistance - with very good SOC estimation!! Also it implements FOC and so motor torque and battery range.

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki

Thanks for the info. I’ve had a look through all the wiki info. It’s a great resource and you have, along with others, dedicated a lot of your time to develop firmware, etc.

I want to build a battery that suits my requirements from the outset, but unfortunately because I don’t have any experience with the motor, I was hoping to gauge some real world examples from other users and use that data/info and roughly apply it to my calculations.

 

[casainho]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

See the wiki and you will find a lot of information. Install our developed OpenSource firmware and you will be able to use any battery voltage, choose the max battery and motor currents and current ramp, and even it measures automatically the battery internal resistance - with very good SOC estimation!! Also it implements FOC and so motor torque and battery range.

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki

Thanks for the info. I’ve had a look through all the wiki info. It’s a great resource and you have, along with others, dedicated a lot of your time to develop firmware, etc.

I want to build a battery that suits my requirements from the outset, but unfortunately because I don’t have any experience with the motor, I was hoping to gauge some real world examples from other users and use that data/info and roughly apply it to my calculations.

For the max current, I guess you already know by now the max values and.you can use higher if you install the temperature sensor.

For the average current, you can look at my values, top speed, my weight, bicycle type, etc that I shared on wiki for the MTB full suspension installation. Look also at others notes, like the fat bike, etc.

Myself I use max battery current if 18 amps when going at max speed of 45 km/h on flat city roads and busy cars...
On MTB I use very low power as possible and I go slow at the same speed of regular riders without ebikes. I try to use a smaller and light battery pack on MTB for having a lighter bicycle which is important.

 

[sbartle]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

See the wiki and you will find a lot of information. Install our developed OpenSource firmware and you will be able to use any battery voltage, choose the max battery and motor currents and current ramp, and even it measures automatically the battery internal resistance - with very good SOC estimation!! Also it implements FOC and so motor torque and battery range.

https://github.com/OpenSource-EBike-firmware/TSDZ2_wiki/wiki

Thanks for the info. I’ve had a look through all the wiki info. It’s a great resource and you have, along with others, dedicated a lot of your time to develop firmware, etc.

I want to build a battery that suits my requirements from the outset, but unfortunately because I don’t have any experience with the motor, I was hoping to gauge some real world examples from other users and use that data/info and roughly apply it to my calculations.

For the max current, I guess you already know by now the max values and.you can use higher if you install the temperature sensor.

For the average current, you can look at my values, top speed, my weight, bicycle type, etc that I shared on wiki for the MTB full suspension installation. Look also at others notes, like the fat bike, etc.

Myself I use max battery current if 18 amps when going at max speed of 45 km/h on flat city roads and busy cars...
On MTB I use very low power as possible and I go slow at the same speed of regular riders without ebikes. I try to use a smaller and light battery pack on MTB for having a lighter bicycle which is important.

Thank you Casainho. I’ve got a feeling I’m going to be buying a number of these motors thanks to your efforts. Thanks again.

 

[NexusG]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

Cheers,
Shaun.

The max current of the motor can be set up to 18A, it's a software limit. Spinningmagnets here on ES wrote an article about the motor and he states that the controller can work up to 30A. https://www.electricbike.com/tsdz2-750w-mid-drive-torque-sensing/
I don't know if this was actually verified but anyway, at this current level, the motor windings would burn VERY fast

Regarding average current, it depends on your riding style but the motor can work at 500W continuously with proper cooling mods. That's only 10A so your 3P 50E battery will be fine !

 

[sbartle]

Hi All,

Just a couple of questions regarding average and max current. I have purchased a 48V TSDZ2 and I am in the process of designing a 14s3p battery as I’m limited on space. It states that it has a 15A motor controller. Can someone confirm that 15A is genuinely the max it will pull? I’m hoping I can use Samsung 50e (5aH) at 1c discharge.

Second question, what is your average current usage and what type of rider are you?

I appreciate there are a lot of variables, but I don’t have any experience with this motor.

Cheers,
Shaun.

The max current of the motor can be set up to 18A, it's a software limit. Spinningmagnets here on ES wrote an article about the motor and he states that the controller can work up to 30A. https://www.electricbike.com/tsdz2-750w-mid-drive-torque-sensing/
I don't know if this was actually verified but anyway, at this current level, the motor windings would burn VERY fast

Regarding average current, it depends on your riding style but the motor can work at 500W continuously with proper cooling mods. That's only 10A so your 3P 50E battery will be fine !

Great. Thank you for the info.

I do a lot of normal cycling anyway and average about 180 - 200W under my own power so I’m just looking for some assistance on the big hills.

 

[ilu]

Does anyone have a link (AliExpress) to the sprag clutch removal tool shown in the repair manual?
Thanks

It's not for removing just the sprag clutch but for taking out the whole gear/sprag clutch -assembly, which you most probably can pull out with using just the spider to which chainring is attached. Removing the sprag cluch from the gear is more difficult unless you have access to a professional bearing press machine. But I found out that using a vice to grip the gear and a mid piece fitting on the clutch you can drive it out with a hammer, although it takes quite a strong force to do that.

 

[r0mko]

Does anyone have a link (AliExpress) to the sprag clutch removal tool shown in the repair manual?
Thanks

It's not for removing just the sprag clutch but for taking out the whole gear/sprag clutch -assembly, which you most probably can pull out with using just the spider to which chainring is attached. Removing the sprag cluch from the gear is more difficult unless you have access to a professional bearing press machine. But I found out that using a vice to grip the gear and a mid piece fitting on the clutch you can drive it out with a hammer, although it takes quite a strong force to do that.

You can remove the sprag clutch using a gas torch, a mallet and ice cubes. Just heat up the gear together with the old sprag clutch, then apply ice cubes to the bearing and give it a kick with a mallet from the behind of the gear. It comes off easily.

To install a new sprag clutch you heat up the gear, push the new bearing in (you may need a mallet) and then drop the whole thing into a bucket of cold water to protect the bearing from heat using. I've used an oven mitt.

 

[Andrew707]

I just installed TSDZ2 on my bike and I'm pretty sure tightened everything right but when actually pedalling looks like the motor is a bit wobbly. To be fair, when installing it looked like my bottom bracket diameter was a little bit too wide for the motor. Previously my bike had FSA Mega EVO bottom bracket. What kind of adapter/spacer am I missing to make the motor fit snuggly?

I took everything apart and measured TSDZ2 spindle and bottom bracket diameter. Turns out TSDZ2 is around 33.1mm while my bottom bracket inner diameter is 33.5mm. That's why I get this play when pedalling. Any ideas on how to secure it properly? Did anyone have issues like me before?
Picture: https://imgur.com/a/FYI7xg4
Video: https://imgur.com/oafy3RK

 

[Big_Daddy]

Question for the knowledge base. How would one calculate the “redline” for boost level multipliers? The default setting is 4 so is the boost factor say for level-1 4*.005? Trying to solve this nagging issue of delayed boost and assist and was curious if adjusting these settings might help. I tried a couple of other suggestions that other posters suggested but neither seems to make a considerable difference after observing during a 42 mile ride today. Wondering if there is a limit to where too much boost causes over strain/damage to gears or motor. Anyone fiddle with the numbers regarding boost multipliers?

 

[r0mko]

Question for the knowledge base. How would one calculate the “redline” for boost level multipliers? The default setting is 4 so is the boost factor say for level-1 4*.005? Trying to solve this nagging issue of delayed boost and assist and was curious if adjusting these settings might help. I tried a couple of other suggestions that other posters suggested but neither seems to make a considerable difference after observing during a 42 mile ride today. Wondering if there is a limit to where too much boost causes over strain/damage to gears or motor. Anyone fiddle with the numbers regarding boost multipliers?

I've solved the boost delay issue by running my own custom motor firmware.
Give it a try https://github.com/r0mko/TSDZ2-Smart-EBike/releases/tag/v0.57.13

 

[bergerandfries]

I took everything apart and measured TSDZ2 spindle and bottom bracket diameter. Turns out TSDZ2 is around 33.1mm while my bottom bracket inner diameter is 33.5mm. That's why I get this play when pedalling. Any ideas on how to secure it properly? Did anyone have issues like me before?
Picture: https://imgur.com/a/FYI7xg4
Video: https://imgur.com/oafy3RK

Four passes of aluminum can sidewall to make a shim? Aluminum can walls are around .1mm thick... just brainstorming here.

 

[Retrorockit]

[/quote]
I took everything apart and measured TSDZ2 spindle and bottom bracket diameter. Turns out TSDZ2 is around 33.1mm while my bottom bracket inner diameter is 33.5mm. That's why I get this play when pedalling. Any ideas on how to secure it properly? Did anyone have issues like me before?
[/quote]
I would try some metal air conditioning duct tape. Not the woven plastic coated stuff. It can be cut with scissors and is adhesive backed.

 

[Huguenot]

Andrew707 wrote:
I took everything apart and measured TSDZ2 spindle and bottom bracket diameter. Turns out TSDZ2 is around 33.1mm while my bottom bracket inner diameter is 33.5mm. That's why I get this play when pedalling. Any ideas on how to secure it properly? Did anyone have issues like me before?

I believe a bit of gap here is normal, and 0,4mm is not that large. Plus, the clamping force of the large nut is what actually holds the motor in place. If things are so loose that you can feel play when pedaling then something else is going on.
Are you certain that the big gear housing is not touching the right chain stay causing the motor to cock when tightened? Could the play actually be the pedal axle moving within the motor itself? That seems to be a common issue. That nut needs to be really tight -whack the wrench with a rubber mallet tight.
Another possibility, and the problem I ran into, was that the faces of the bottom bracket were not parallel to each other. This caused the clamping force to be concentrated unevenly and the motor loosened up. It needs to make even contact all around.
The fix was to chase the threads and cut the faces of the BB to make them perfectly parallel. I happen to have the tools to do this, but any decent bike shop should have them. (The motor itself does not use those threads, but they are needed to complete the facing job.)
Most BB shells are made on a lathe so the faces ...should... be parallel, but with sealed bearings, often held with crappy plastic cups, tolerances can be looser in manufacturing.
Try clamping a couple of 250-300mm long steel or aluminum bars evenly across each face and measure the distance between them at the ends, this will exaggerate any discrepancy. If that distance is not equal you may have found your problem. Be sure to measure out equally from the BB, the farther out the more accurate you will be, and do it again 90 degrees from the first measurement if possible.

 

[Andrew707]

Four passes of aluminum can sidewall to make a shim? Aluminum can walls are around .1mm thick... just brainstorming here.

I would try some metal air conditioning duct tape. Not the woven plastic coated stuff. It can be cut with scissors and is adhesive backed.

Thanks guys, I took an aluminium can and secured it with a bit of electrical tape and it worked! It wasn't perfect but it definitely reduced the play.
https://imgur.com/4mYtnfu

Could the play actually be the pedal axle moving within the motor itself? That seems to be a common issue. That nut needs to be really tight -whack the wrench with a rubber mallet tight.

So right now with aluminium can trick and everything tightened pretty well everything feels much better. However, I think there still is a tiny bit of play and I think that might be the axle. Is it possible to tighten it?



Btw, just in case anyone is interested, I had my gear cable going under the bottom bracket and I didn't think about it when ordering the motor. I had to file plastic cable guide under the bottom bracket quite a bit so the motor will go in (only with a side of it removed) and then had to file off a big chunk of that triangle holder part so it won't touch my shifter cable... This whole thing took me some time to figure out but looks like it worked out well
https://imgur.com/7dmZike

 

[RicMcK]

Four passes of aluminum can sidewall to make a shim? Aluminum can walls are around .1mm thick... just brainstorming here.

I would try some metal air conditioning duct tape. Not the woven plastic coated stuff. It can be cut with scissors and is adhesive backed.

Thanks guys, I took an aluminium can and secured it with a bit of electrical tape and it worked! It wasn't perfect but it definitely reduced the play.
https://imgur.com/4mYtnfu

Could the play actually be the pedal axle moving within the motor itself? That seems to be a common issue. That nut needs to be really tight -whack the wrench with a rubber mallet tight.

So right now with aluminium can trick and everything tightened pretty well everything feels much better. However, I think there still is a tiny bit of play and I think that might be the axle. Is it possible to tighten it?



Btw, just in case anyone is interested, I had my gear cable going under the bottom bracket and I didn't think about it when ordering the motor. I had to file plastic cable guide under the bottom bracket quite a bit so the motor will go in (only with a side of it removed) and then had to file off a big chunk of that triangle holder part so it won't touch my shifter cable... This whole thing took me some time to figure out but looks like it worked out well
https://imgur.com/7dmZike

I drilled a hole in both pieces of the rear attachment system for the derailleur cables, and on out Al frame tandem (Cannondale), I removed the left motor cover and had to file down the plastic under BB cable guide to get enough clearance.

 

[Keithchris]

First an apology if this question is in the wrong place - this is my first post on ANY site and I hope you will treat me gently... I have built 2 bikes with TONGSHENG mid motor kits from PS Power - built in September and used with no issues a few times - however now my wife’s bike is not “ starting “ - battery and controller seem OK as I have switched parts over to my bike and they perform OK - I have followed the starting procedure ie ‘ feet off “ pedals and allow time for system to initialise - but there is no assist initially - after further attempts at switching on/off and pedalling around for a while the system suddenly kicks in and is OK after that for the journey we make including any stops we make - the system is OK - however if I leave it for a couple of days we are back to square one . Am I missing something simple here ? ANY help welcome !! Thanks

 

[bergerandfries]

First an apology if this question is in the wrong place - this is my first post on ANY site and I hope you will treat me gently... I have built 2 bikes with TONGSHENG mid motor kits from PS Power - built in September and used with no issues a few times - however now my wife’s bike is not “ starting “ - battery and controller seem OK as I have switched parts over to my bike and they perform OK - I have followed the starting procedure ie ‘ feet off “ pedals and allow time for system to initialise - but there is no assist initially - after further attempts at switching on/off and pedalling around for a while the system suddenly kicks in and is OK after that for the journey we make including any stops we make - the system is OK - however if I leave it for a couple of days we are back to square one . Am I missing something simple here ? ANY help welcome !! Thanks

Quick terminology check: there is a controller built into the motor housing, and display that connects via a cable to the motor. I think you mean that you switched displays with no change of behavior on hers/your bike?
Also, what happens when you leave the battery powered on for a while while hitting buttons on the display to keep it from going to sleep? That might be a useful diagnostic to see if it is related to time that battery power is applied to the motor (I'm thinking faulty/failing capacitor on the controller in the motor housing?)