New "TSDZ2 Torque Sensor Central Motor"

[casainho]

...
The future will be wireless, mainly mobile app, which is MUCH easier to develop for, is hard to develop for displays.
...

ugh. I'd much rather have a dedicated wired display, like my 860C, then have to mount my phone each time I ride my bike.

I clearly understand!! But the wireless EBike standard has other possibilities like having a much more advanced display like the Garmin Edge GPS display with navigation, connection to cycling sensors (like showing a graph of your heat rate in real time) and that has advanced fitness metrics like Flow and Jumps. This is something that 860C display will never do!!

The idea is that user will choose to have a clean EBike instalation using wireless and all that possibilities or choose to use the 860C/SW102 displays, which are also great.

 

[LeftCoastNurd]

The idea is that user will choose to have a clean EBike instalation using wireless and all that possibilities or choose to use the 860C/SW102 displays, which are also great.

ah, as long as the 860C remains an option, I'm cool with that. as far as 'clean', you still want a button control near the left grip for power levels, turning the system on/off, and you still need wires to the brakes, as well as headlight power, so its hard to see not having a wire for the display is really much cleaner.

 

[LeftCoastNurd]

Thanks y’all. I spent so much time searching for my error on the new firmware I didn’t even think to check to make sure they sent the right thing. Will chat w/ electrify bike!

did you get the programming cables for the tsdz2 and 860c ? if so, you can flash them both with the 1.1.0 firmware and be good to go.

 

[casainho]

The idea is that user will choose to have a clean EBike instalation using wireless and all that possibilities or choose to use the 860C/SW102 displays, which are also great.

ah, as long as the 860C remains an option, I'm cool with that. as far as 'clean', you still want a button control near the left grip for power levels, turning the system on/off, and you still need wires to the brakes, as well as headlight power, so its hard to see not having a wire for the display is really much cleaner.

The remote is also wireless and the brakes connect to the wireless remote, all is wireless.
The lights, like the remote and the GPS display have their own battery and are controlled wireless using the wireless standard for cycling lights. So everything is optional, you attach to the handle bar at anytime what you want and they just communicate wireless. Again, this is not the solution for everyone, maybe only for the ones that want a clean EBike (maybe Ebikes that are stored on the street and MTB or road Ebikes), with TSDZ2 or other motors.

 

[sysrq]

Nope. I suspect something is rubbing where I can't see it. Haven't found it yet

Same here, haven't had any problems before and now it won't allow to tighten the bolts anymore.

Did you try with the gear cover removed?

Unfortunately had to make some makeshift turning machine out of old bicycle to slightly file, sand and polish the chainwheel. Now it seems to be rotating more or less freely/smoothly and there is something which looks like a small gap between the chainring and pinion gear protrusion.

Seems weird that very few people are complaining about chainring rubbing against the housing since it seems like a serious design flaw which leads to needless friction and inefficiency.

 

[dameri]

Same here, haven't had any problems before and now it won't allow to tighten the bolts anymore.

Did you try with the gear cover removed?

Unfortunately had to make some makeshift turning machine out of old bicycle to slightly file, sand and polish the chainwheel. Now it seems to be rotating more or less freely/smoothly and there is something which looks like a small gap between the chainring and pinion gear protrusion.

Seems weird that very few people are complaining about chainring rub against the housing since it seems like a serious design flaw which leads to needless friction and inefficiency.

I have had this in three motors. It's just bad chinese work.

 

[runwayfour]

Thanks y’all. I spent so much time searching for my error on the new firmware I didn’t even think to check to make sure they sent the right thing. Will chat w/ electrify bike!

did you get the programming cables for the tsdz2 and 860c ? if so, you can flash them both with the 1.1.0 firmware and be good to go.

Not yet. I was trying to eliminate user error and let someone else do the hard parts at first -- and see what that got me :lol:
Will see if they'll send me the display they intended to send in the first place, but, also getting those cables ASAP for myself.

Thanks for steering me in the right direction **facepalm**

 

[sysrq]

Did you try with the gear cover removed?

Unfortunately had to make some makeshift turning machine out of old bicycle to slightly file, sand and polish the chainwheel. Now it seems to be rotating more or less freely/smoothly and there is something which looks like a small gap between the chainring and pinion gear protrusion.

Seems weird that very few people are complaining about chainring rub against the housing since it seems like a serious design flaw which leads to needless friction and inefficiency.

I have had this in three motors. It's just bad chinese work.

Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.

 

[LeftCoastNurd]

Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.

there is an original Japanese version that the TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drive cloned ??

 

[ilu]

Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.

there is an original Japanese version that the TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drive cloned ??

I have some new problem every two weeks minimum with my piece of crap motor. I cannot understand how some people are driving thousands of kilometers without any fault, so it seems like a good explanation that they have their motors coming from a completely different factory!

 

[sysrq]

Don't know if the original Japanese version or BBS02 had the same propblem. First search attempt didn't show any relevant results.

there is an original Japanese version that the TSDZ2 torque sensing mid drive cloned ??

Wasn't there Sunstar version which got discontinued?

Just for general information, the Sunstar from Japan was the original drive of this size and configuration, but they were not very interested in exports to the EU and North America, plus...Bafangs BBS01 was cheaper and heavily marketed in the EU, then after its clear success...the BBS02 (with 10mm wider stator and wound to a lower Kv in order to use 48V instead of 36V) was introduced to an eager customer base in the US.

There are many places with a 250W, 500W power limit, but...the BBS02 is capable of an actual 1,000W of power, plus it can visually pass as one of its less-powerful siblings. Of course you would have to obscure the engraved 750W label, which would be wrong, and we would never want you do do anything like that (*wink)

I have got a prototype of the Xofo MMS 48V 350W (18A). Chainline is better than Bafang even with the stock, flat chainring.

The motor is sturdy with generously sized components but the design still feels like a prototype on some points. IMO the TSDZ2 is a better option at the moment for MTB : well implemented torque sensor, much smaller, lighter and the design is proven.

Will post a review when I have finished installing it on my Orbea Occam S10 !

 

[jbalat]

I made up a thin plastic spacer to move the chain wheel away from the plastic cover, the rubbing is due to the slop in the motor , despite not rubbing I feel there is a lot more we can do to improve the design and reduce mechanical drag. With the motor turned off it is impossible to ride any faster than about 17kms/hr for any length of time. Perhaps we should look to the bosch2020 motor for some ideas ? From a firmware perspective I can often peddle faster than the motor wants to rotate adding extra unwanted resistance and wasted input since it fights the motor and doesn’t transfer directly to the back wheel, this too should be something worth looking at.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

 

[casainho]

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

Why not keep using the Bafang M500 / M600 motor?

 

[Alfie]

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

Good to see you are getting out and muddy How are you getting on with the frame?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

Why not keep using the Bafang M500 / M600 motor?

Yes I agree, but the M500 is speed limited in the EU and the M600 seems to be having more than a few mechanical and software issues + has had to have a metal gear inserted to stop gear damage and by consequence is said to be noisy.

Plus I had a TSDZ2 engine spare, + the Bafang is pushing $ 800.00 by the time it gets to your door v the TSDZ2 at $ 300.00.

Now if we could get you to rewrite the Bafang firmware + a Blevo type App for it, there would be an awful lot of happy people.

 

[Waynemarlow]

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

Good to see you are getting out and muddy How are you getting on with the frame?

Its a very good frame, way better than I was expecting.

But and its a big but, sorting out the adaptor to get TSDZ2 to mount into the Bafang mounts was a long mission, lots of thought and machining to get the motor to sit in the right place and spread the load across the Bafang mounts when the motor also has to act as part of the frame structure. Now that its been done and designed it would relatively easy to make with a CNC mill or water jet cutter.

Anybody out there wanting to sell the adapters then I could digitise the pieces needed ?

 

[casainho]

Just to be different, you can fit the TSDZ2 into the Bafang M500 / M600 frames.

Why not keep using the Bafang M500 / M600 motor?

Yes I agree, but the M500 is speed limited in the EU and the M600 seems to be having more than a few mechanical and software issues + has had to have a metal gear inserted to stop gear damage and by consequence is said to be noisy.

Plus I had a TSDZ2 engine spare, + the Bafang is pushing $ 800.00 by the time it gets to your door v the TSDZ2 at $ 300.00.

Now if we could get you to rewrite the Bafang firmware + a Blevo type App for it, there would be an awful lot of happy people.

Well, so is much more expensive - I guess is not only to initial price of the motor but the parts for repair. That means also for development will be much more expensive as also the electronics of the motors should be more complex also, so more expensive in money and time for development.

I did search on Aliexpress for "Bafang motor" and I only find parts for the DIY motors, nothing for that motor, so, how would an end user like me be able to buy the parts for repair and development and modding? Maybe is simple not possible.

 

[Waynemarlow]

I did search on Aliexpress for "Bafang motor" and I only find parts for the DIY motors, nothing for that motor, so, how would an end user like me be able to buy the parts for repair and development and modding? Maybe is simple not possible.

You are correct with more than a few unhappy customers with Err30 locking out the motors and no parts for repair nor reasonable ways of trouble shooting the error. As to actually how many motors are failing is an unknown in comparison to the actual numbers sold,we are all guilty of using the media to point out manufacturer faults when our motor is playing up.

This was also another reason for sticking with the TSZD2, as until the Bafang unit has proved itself, I didn't want to be an early adopter.

 

[casainho]

Just for references!

It is your design? If so, can you share the source files? because I am pretty sure they can be very useful for others.

And I wish some mechanical guy could improve the motor by reducing the noise - I think the noise comes from the gears, maybe from the main gear and the pinion gear.

 

[sysrq]

I made up a thin plastic spacer to move the chain wheel away from the plastic cover, the rubbing is due to the slop in the motor , despite not rubbing I feel there is a lot more we can do to improve the design and reduce mechanical drag. With the motor turned off it is impossible to ride any faster than about 17kms/hr for any length of time. Perhaps we should look to the bosch2020 motor for some ideas ? From a firmware perspective I can often peddle faster than the motor wants to rotate adding extra unwanted resistance and wasted input since it fights the motor and doesn’t transfer directly to the back wheel, this too should be something worth looking at.

Since every fraction of a millimeter is important for good chainlaine then I had to resort to filing and polishing the chainring on a makeshift lathe. The chainring thickness went from 1.90mm to 1.75mm around the area below the teeth.
Have been saying the same thing. In turbo mode it's seems to be spinning faster which reduces the perception of a drag.

 

[jbalat]

In turbo mode it's seems to be spinning faster which reduces the perception of a drag.

Exactly, its very easy to feel in lower assist levels

BTW thank you Wapous for the schematics.. It would be great to do a video/animation to get a better visualisation of how it works to see if there are any easy improvements

 

[feketehegyi]

fyi, mobile gestures and voice commands throttle alternatives:
https://youtu.be/JOfJ3XgbrvE
https://youtu.be/CLSx6sgaIB8

 

[Alfie]

Its a very good frame, way better than I was expecting.

What is the largest capacity battery you can fit in the frame?

Have you weighed the finished bike?

 

[Waynemarlow]

Its a very good frame, way better than I was expecting.

What is the largest capacity battery you can fit in the frame?

Have you weighed the finished bike?

The battery compartment is huge, I can fit 2 x 360Wh batteries and probably a 3rd if you were to make a dedicated battery.

22kgs with 720Wh battery, no weight thought or compromise on used bits and pieces on anything in the back of my shed and bits that are cheap and cheerful and will last the UK muddy conditions. If you went way over the top using weight weeny ( read lots of money ) you could push that down a long way.

Still heavy than my Whyte though