Optibike mid drive

[Green Machine]

There are just so many factors in a ebike race. I think that is the reason ebike races always seem to be blowouts.

I think there are more and bigger factors other than the tire size.

How many watts your pumping, how much your bike weighs, how good of a peddler is the rider?

First regarding the rider...notice in the pictures the bmx has no chain...so the bmx won the race with no peddling. I have heard a good peddler is worth 500 watts...i am probably putting out 200 watts only

Also rider weight is a big factor. A 100lb rider will do much better in a hill climb...and the bmx rider looked really skinny.

Regarding weight...the bmx looks lightweight but its atleast 80 lbs in the pictured configuration. The opti with equal amp hours is 55lbs. I rode the bmx and it is a very jarring uncomfortable ride off road being so heavy with no suspension. It is really the opposite of the optibike which is a very smooth balanced ride even on very rugged terrain. Remember the optibike has lightweight wheels...so it dos not have any unsprung weight on the wheels which is detrimental to ride feel. A weight class wouldnt be a bad idea for an ebike race.

The biggest factor to me is wattage. The optibike does its thing at 850 watts...the bmx 3000 watts. For a race to be fair it would be have to be divided by "watt class". This is the big one in my mind and the reason why i have never seen a "close" ebike race for any substantial distance.

For the record, i see no way a hub motor could compete if limited to 850 watts because of the efficient nature of the 14 speed rohloff in the mid drive equation. If a hub motor could win limited to 850 watts i would forever be sold on hub motors seeing no advantage at all in mid drives except for weight balance.

The last factor is the optibike is not really designed to race up the hill as it is just to get up it safely and dependably. The hub motors need to build momentum and speed before they can climb....the opti can comfortably climb at 3mph. Perhaps if i could find a steeper hill to race the opti will crush...just a guess. Also if the hill were more technical it would be too difficult to race up at 10 mph hub motor speed.

 

[kfong]

The technical up hill climbs would be where the Optibike would shine and what I want for my particular type of riding. Stall that hub motor midway and you end up pushing it the rest of the way up.

 

[Miles]

I think there are more and bigger factors other than the tire size.....

There may, or may not, be but these things are easily quantified. It's a simple fact that the torque requirement is directly proportional to the wheel diameter

 

[kfong]

Yep, can't discount the smaller wheel diameter. Leverage! Archimedes said "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world."

 

[Green Machine]

Correct me if im wrong here because wheel size is something I often ponder about.

But isnt wheel size only critical in direct drive systems? For example since the bmc is geared, and the optibike is geared, isnt wheel size more or less irrelevant in these configurations?

For example, Miles, you have a beautiful moulton (my favorite build ever on Es), wasnt it moulton who thought with schlump planetary and other methods of achieving ultra high gearing the 20 inch bike was just as efficient on the flats as 26 inch road bikes? Wouldnt the same logic work for hill climbing in the reverse?

From experience i have a 20 inch geared bmc powered bike and is not the hill climber i expected, and in fact has comparable performance to my other geared bmc's with large wheels and similiar configurations, up and down hills and on flats. It always kind of puzzled me. Maybe you guys can fill me into something i am missing...

Anyway what i am saying is as long as the bmc and the opti have just the right gear available to the applicable hill...isnt tire size irrelevant?

 

[Miles]

But isnt wheel size only critical in direct drive systems?

It's only critical on systems with direct-drive or a fixed gearing ratio.

A geared hub motor saves weight by running a smaller motor faster and gearing down to multiply the torque.

 

[Miles]

Anyway what i am saying is as long as the bmc and the opti have just the right gear available to the applicable hill...isnt tire size irrelevant?

You could swap the gears in the BMC and increase the voltage - or just swap the gears and be stuck with a top speed of 10mph..

The wheel is just the final stage of the gearing and it's size sets the total ratio needed.

 

[Alan B]

On the videos, one way to help show the gradient better is to keep the camera level. Use the zoom to include the riders, but keep the reference level, especially at the start of the shot. This sets the frame of reference for level for the viewer. Then you can zoom and tilt up the hill to see better, but the viewer already has seen that the hill is very steep. It is imperfect, but it helps.

 

[Rassy]

From experience i have a 20 inch geared bmc powered bike and is not the hill climber i expected, and in fact has comparable performance to my other geared bmc's with large wheels and similiar configurations, up and down hills and on flats. It always kind of puzzled me. Maybe you guys can fill me into something i am missing...

Miles pretty well answered your question. i.e., your BMC motor on your 20" wheel either has different gears inside, or has a faster wind motor than your other BMC motors. It would be a pain to do, but if you could swap the motor in the 20" wheel with the motor in one of your 26" wheels, both bikes should change, the big bike being faster, and the little bike being a better climber, all other things being equal. It's like comparing a 9C 6X10 to a 9C 9X7.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

There are just so many factors in a ebike race. I think that is the reason ebike races always seem to be blowouts.

I think there are more and bigger factors other than the tire size.

How many watts your pumping, how much your bike weighs, how good of a peddler is the rider?

First regarding the rider...notice in the pictures the bmx has no chain...so the bmx won the race with no peddling. I have heard a good peddler is worth 500 watts...i am probably putting out 200 watts only

Also rider weight is a big factor. A 100lb rider will do much better in a hill climb...and the bmx rider looked really skinny.

Regarding weight...the bmx looks lightweight but its atleast 80 lbs in the pictured configuration. The opti with equal amp hours is 55lbs. I rode the bmx and it is a very jarring uncomfortable ride off road being so heavy with no suspension. It is really the opposite of the optibike which is a very smooth balanced ride even on very rugged terrain. Remember the optibike has lightweight wheels...so it dos not have any unsprung weight on the wheels which is detrimental to ride feel. A weight class wouldnt be a bad idea for an ebike race.

The biggest factor to me is wattage. The optibike does its thing at 850 watts...the bmx 3000 watts. For a race to be fair it would be have to be divided by "watt class". This is the big one in my mind and the reason why i have never seen a "close" ebike race for any substantial distance.

For the record, i see no way a hub motor could compete if limited to 850 watts because of the efficient nature of the 14 speed rohloff in the mid drive equation. If a hub motor could win limited to 850 watts i would forever be sold on hub motors seeing no advantage at all in mid drives except for weight balance.

The last factor is the optibike is not really designed to race up the hill as it is just to get up it safely and dependably. The hub motors need to build momentum and speed before they can climb....the opti can comfortably climb at 3mph. Perhaps if i could find a steeper hill to race the opti will crush...just a guess. Also if the hill were more technical it would be too difficult to race up at 10 mph hub motor speed.

ah yes.
the sweet taste of sour grapes.
no surprises here.
just proves what hub-lovers have known (and said) all along.
let the mental calisthenics now begin.
bending twisting & jumping thru all manner of hoops to excuse & rationalize the late grate optibikes' deficiencies.


"small wheels... not fair!"
"more power... not fair!!"
"notfairnotfairnotfairnotfairwhaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
but had opti won, 4-5 times the budget? heyyy, that's all cool.


wheel diameter is in fact irrelevant.
why?

The wheel is just the final stage of the gearing and it's size sets the total ratio needed.

wheel size is simply another one of the parameters u can play with along with winding count & voltage to tailor the system for a particular app, in this case to scale the peak.
the other bikes have the exact same ability open to them to adjust their gearing anyway they choose, this just happens at a different point in the train so as a refuting argument or mitigating factor it don't hold water.
same goes for the wattage, if opti is intended for off-road then there's no regulation restricting off-road power levels.

in fact it's high-larry-us how the so-called 'non-hub' group don't lose any sleep that they have a completely free hand to press into service any & all whatever tool or crutch available in order to achieve their objective.
but funny how they're blissfully ignorant of the inherent hypocracy that somehow a hubmotor suddenly has to be held to higher account.
to 'play fair' with one hand tied behind it's back by having arbitrary artificial restrictions applied to restrain it.
not allowed to have a small wheel on a hubmotor, "it looks funny, unsafe handling, ad nauseum".
sure it does.



it would be kinda like if two competitors engage in a knife-fight.
the one party figgurs hey, no rules in a knife fight so it's perfectly okay to bring a gun cuz winning is everything.
then when he gets beaten to a bloody pulp runs home crying to momma 'no fair no fair, it's not allowed to bring a sheleighleigh to a knife fight!'.

hubbies FTW every time.

 

[Green Machine]

The technical up hill climbs would be where the Optibike would shine and what I want for my particular type of riding. Stall that hub motor midway and you end up pushing it the rest of the way up.

Also the rohloff really helps in this department...i think on this hill i was climbing around 4th gear...if i had to stop for whatever reason with a traditional derailer i would also be stuck, because the opti wouldnt have the power to get started from a dead stop in that gear on that hill. The rohloff along with the other igh's i mentioned allow you to shift multiple gears while stopped. So i could shift down to 1st or second while sitting there and then get started climbing the hill again. The biggest advantage for me of a mid drive is being able to run a igh and still have a rear wheel drive...that is why i originally wanted the opti or the new german made ego drive. Once you run with an igh its hard to go back to derailers...especially since i am building bikes lately to run in the sand.

Regarding hubs, i have nothing against them have a bunch of them and always have loved them...but i am a new believer in DD hubs. I am wondering if the new crystalite will make the bmc obsolete...but thats for another post. Real soon i will have a dd to compare with bmc's and opti and we will do extensive testing on that same slacker peek. I wasnt into dd's before because of there high weight...these newly released hubs at 13lbs are very ridable.

What is the weight of the 9c? Bmxer claimed 13 lbs.

Its obvious that i bought an opti with an open mind and one of the benefits to have it is to do these kind of comparisons to the bikes i already have. If it makes me look too stupid i can just stop sharing data. I hate looking stupid

After i ride a DD myself i will be able to evaluate how well it performs at various speeds and climbs compared to bmc and the opti...right now have just raw data on who got to the top of one hill first! Right now i am enamored by DD's because of there silence (even quieter than bmc), hill climbing potential at high amps, ability to run high amps without smoking, low cost, etc...

Optibike is talking about reclaiming its hill climbing title at pikes peak this year, and a knowlegable poster on the opti group who owns both a opti and a stealth bomber says the stealth bomber that is showing up will definitely win.....and he said to the opti group and i am agreeing its not fair to compare a 150 lb 5000 watt virtual electric motorcycle to a 60lb 800 watt ebike. Get it? Not fair? Same as bringing a 1000gsxr to a goped race. Whats the fun there? its not fair to bring a gun to a knife fight..right you got it except with certain match ups there should be no suprises on who wins. Them is not just sour grapes them is facts. Get it? Different bikes serve different purposes and one race isnt the answer to everything its just data to consider.

Just got my leon controller in the mail today....and have a new 13lb ht 24 crystallite motor ready for a wheel build.

 

[liveforphysics]

That BMX is running an unvented 9C clone.

This is a great and very durable motor, but nearly as weak as direct drive hubs come. A vented 9C could handle double the power , a fan cooled vented 9C even more, and an X5 would be starting out with higher power handling than a fan-cooled 9C, and moving into insanity torque as it gets modded. Think >10kw.

Also, as far as reliability... The hubby is both silent, and has 1 moving part (which doubles as the spoke flange for the wheel).

The optibike has 10's of moving parts, all of which wear, and all of which can fail.

 

[Green Machine]

I am thinking about organizing a race up to the top of slackers peek in the marin headlands where we did this optibike test. It will happen in the next few months so you guys come out.

When considering it i am remembering the first race me and ken trough from v is for voltage organized "anti gravity event" in the headlands 8 years ago.

When organizing a race like that, for the race to be fun, it has to be divided into weight categories or wattage categories.

Also what we learned from that race back in 2002 is the hill needs to be a helluva lot steeper than the one we ran....i am thinking slackers peek is perfect cuz the steepness will keep the top speeds down when the "superbikes" race.

In the picture below is me lining up to race mike zilla on his etech powered ebike in our "unlimited class"...i am on a home built etech powered scooter. These bikes weighed over 200lbs and are as fast as sin. We had them geared real high for high speeds. Notice i have 20 inch wheels.

Remember this is back in 2002....and we were running lead acid....anyway we reached speeds of over 50 mph UPHILL around corners on this race and it was downright dangerous. Afterwards me and mike were like wiping our brows...at the time i owned a 929 cbr rice rocket, and i was more scared on that electric than id ever been on my motorycle...a few years later I got in a accident on that same scooter...probably the closest i came to dying on 2 wheels so far...i had that 200lb thing skid out on a downhill off road and i endoed and after i hit the ground that thing came tumbling on top of me. I traded it for something lighter and more nimble (and slower) a few months later. That scooter in picture evolved into the Jackal which you can still buy from ts motors for like 7k....but even on lithium it is badly balanced, heavy, and handles like dog poop. I wouldnt trade any of my hub drives for it.

What has really changed since 2002 is not top speed or hill climbing..its battery technology to go farther at a lighter weight. All the bikes pictured would be lucky to have 8 mile range. Also as Physics pointed out motors are getting helluva dependable at a cheap price....etechs are pretty dependable as well...but are heavy, and battery suckers. You need a lot of voltage and amps to run bikes that fast...and its super easy to do and not that exciting frankly if your turned off as i am by heavy weight and low range. This is extreme example but you get my point.

Notice the guys in the pictures with there little scoots and pocket bikes next to me and mike? Thats what they call bringing a knife to a gun fight....your only chance of winning is if the guys up front screw up bad and kill themselves...which we were definatly taking a shot at.

Oh and those bikes back in 2002...helluva lot faster, better climbers, than the optibike... definitely. And eight years later, after owning several electric vehicles like the one im pictured on riding there...i still saw value on purchasing an optibike...regardless of top speed. And i own 6 hub powered bikes. Whatcha suppose is the matter with me? I hate looking stupid...doooughh!!!

By the way the optibike has the longest range per pound of all my bikes, the 2nd lightest, the cleanest and best looking, and is by far the best handling ebike i own...and it is for sale

 

[kfong]

One of the problems with Pike’s Peak, was carrying enough batteries to make the climb. Having an efficient setup like the Optibike really helps, I believe there was a hub motor in the event, but it ran out of power way before getting to the top. This year’s challenge should be interesting. I climbed Pike Peak many years ago to snowboard down the backside, it took all morning to get to the top. They didn’t allow cars in the winter. The road up had lots of switchbacks, and at times it was quicker to cut across. I had snowboard boots on and felt it was still dangerously steep at times. My friend did it on ski boots, tougher still.

 

[Green Machine]

I am reposting this E mail from Mr. John Bidwell, author of secrets of El Ninja.


Hi Everyone,

On August 29th, six electric bicycles joined the 300+ conventional bicycles for
the Pikes Peak challenge, " Assault on the Peak". The event was 24.5 miles,
with a total ascent of over 7,700 vertical feet, (then, of course, the return
was 24.5 miles of braking with 7,700 feet of descent!). The ride started in
Manitou Springs and finished at the top of Pikes Peak, elevation 14,110 feet.

Josh Kerson (Small Planet EV, Fort Collins), Chuck Ankeny (Pete's Electric Bike
Shop, Boulder), Steve (Fort Collins Recumbent Bike shop) and I left together in
the "group start" (300+ bikes all at one time) and departed Manitou Springs at 7
a.m. The ride started at elevation 6,300 ft. and was a fairly gentle grade up
the highway to the toll gate. In the first 6 miles, the E bikers had spread out
a bit and had passed most of the roadies. Then the climb got steeper...and
steeper.

Then it got really steep, but hey! we were having fun chatting with and getting
to know some very friendly "real" athletes (I talked to one guy who had ridden
with Lance Armstrong and had done the Tour de France). We were letting them draft
us since we were moving right along with plenty of power.

Then, although we had been running between 10 and 20 MPH, we hit three issues
all at once: a steeper grade, headwinds, and the pavement changed to dirt. To
keep my amp draw down, I slowed to 5 MPH, and at that point I was of no more
drafting use to the folks on 15-lb. carbon fiber bikes.

As I rounded one of the many sharp switchbacks, I saw Josh Kerson (who had
talked me into going on this ride) nursing an intermittent motor/controller
suffering from heat failure on his BMC hub motor-driven custom electric cruiser.
This was at the 15.5-mile mark with 10 more miles to go---straight up (or so it
seemed). I stopped to check on Josh, then I considered what the ride down would
be like if I used all my battery power on the uphill, with no battery on the
downhill (I had no regen, and there were a couple of uphills I didn't want to
push on the way back). So both Josh and I called it a day and headed back down
together.

Just then, Chuck Ankeny went by riding the "Kalkhoff" bike, and he said he still
had 1/3 battery left.

Ultimately, three electric bicycles made it to the top. The first two were Jim
Turner and Hale Kyle from the Optibike corporation, riding the latest Optibikes.
The Optibikes were 31 minutes ahead of the closest human-powered bicycle. Chuck
Ankeny managed to reach the summit in 22nd place. We found out later that Steve
lasted 10 miles on an Izip Express (another fixed motor ratio bike with standard
batteries) before his batteries gave out.

Kudos to the three riders and electric bikes that made it to the top!


Learnings and take-aways are:


* There is nothing like a derailer geared electric drive for efficiency on
steep hill climbs. All who made it were derailer geared, and all who didn't
weren't.

* You do need a lot of battery capacity (we all had some form of Lithium,
but the finishers had some form of high-energy density batteries).

* Big battery capacity can help, but drive efficiency and low weight reduce
the need for kilowatt-hours.



Thanks go to the sponsors (Red Noland Cadillac) and promoters (Summit Cycling
Production) of this event. The event was very professionally run and
(fortunately) electric-bike friendly.

Thanks also to my wife, Debbie, for pre-driving the hill with me, shuttling me to
and from the race, being the official photographer, and enjoying Colorado Springs
with me.

Regards,

John Bidwell

 

[Miles]

"small wheels... not fair!"
"more power... not fair!!"
"notfairnotfairnotfairnotfairwhaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
but had opti won, 4-5 times the budget? heyyy, that's all cool.

Just for the record:

WRT wheel size, I was only concerned about the fairness of the comparison between the geared and the direct-drive hub motors.

As I wrote:

It's not really a fair comparison unless the two hub motors are, at least, in the same sized wheel...

Meaning, as each other.

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

yeah, that distinction didn't escape my notice & actually had to think about that for a bit.
even tho my comments were mostly directed towards the AJ/M.E.N.S. club prevailing mindset out there regarding hubmotors, i still come down on the side that wheel size is just one more of several variable choices that go into a complete system.
what's not fair is singling it out forcing it to be held constant.
i'll give u that it may not be a fair comparison for the purposes of empirical evaluation but that it certainly is fair competition.

but for a moment consider this.
after experiencing continual BMC failures just like the one here, evTech/Texas Electric started their own brand beefed up clone of the BMC hubmotor with lower gearing & then volt-up exactly as u did suggest (& is why they cost substantially more cuz they survive this sort of punishment).
so now what size wheel should this be built into for a fair comparison to the regular BMC? or to the DD?
as u pointed out it's all part of the o/a gearing, changing the wheel size is no different than changing out the planetaries, so why should that matter?

i guess what it all comes down to is exactly how do u establish a level playing field with such diversity of combined components?
is it fair that one bike has a much much more expensive battery ($2500 for 900 Wh) giving it an edge of being simultaneously lighter & more capacity.
so for the purposes of a fair comparison do we now hold battery capacity a constant, battery price, battery weight, o/a weight or o/a price?
and just who gets to decide how to stack the deck in their favour?

i think the problem is one identical to voting in an election with more than 2 candidates running at the same time.
it's mathematically proven that there's no perfect solution how to establish a clear winner.
so all we're left with is first one past the post, or to the top of the mountain whichever the case may be.

To keep my amp draw down, I slowed to 5 MPH,

take it he didn't have a CA or the like?
slowing likely increased the amp draw.

Learnings and take-aways are:


* There is nothing like a derailer geared electric drive for efficiency on
steep hill climbs. All who made it were derailer geared, and all who didn't
weren't.

um, no.
that's a presumptive & faulty conclusion.
the lesson i walk away with is they were using the wrong wind hubmotor among other things that weren't appropriate or properly setup like maybe the wrong tires for sand/dirt.

 

[Miles]

Well, it's definitely easier to compare one hub motor with another than with a variable geared set-up

As the idea behind geared hub motors is to reduce weight. I would have thought that a fair comparison would keep (nominal) continuously rated power and wheel size as constants?

I have no problem at all with a hub motor in a small wheel in comparison with a larger wheeled variable gear set-up.

i think the problem is one identical to voting in an election with more than 2 candidates running at the same time.
it's mathematically proven that there's no perfect solution how to establish a clear winner.
so all we're left with is first one past the post, or to the top of the mountain whichever the case may be.

In our case, whichever are the winners or losers, the important thing is to understand why................

 

[Kepler]

So what are the actual rules in relation to Watts for this race? Is it just a matter of staying within the legal 850W max?

A stock Bomber current limited through the CA will run for close to 2hrs @850W. The motor and ESC wont even get warm under this load. I think a few would be surprised just how rideable a Bomber is at this power level. I have done quite a bit of riding with the power limited to 850W just to understand what the bike is capable of under these conditions. What I found is that it had no trouble doing 50kph with a bit of light assist on fairly flat road. What really impressed me though what its ability to climb steep stuff pegged at 850W but at at around 15kph with me assisting in the low gears. Again the motor and controller didn't even get warm. So much for hub motors being incredibly inefficient under load at low speeds.

Optibike is talking about reclaiming its hill climbing title at pikes peak this year, and a knowlegable poster on the opti group who owns both a opti and a stealth bomber says the stealth bomber that is showing up will definitely win.....and he said to the opti group and i am agreeing its not fair to compare a 150 lb 5000 watt virtual electric motorcycle to a 60lb 800 watt ebike. Get it? Not fair? Same as bringing a 1000gsxr to a goped race. Whats the fun there? its not fair to bring a gun to a knife fight..right you got it except with certain match ups there should be no suprises on who wins. Them is not just sour grapes them is facts. Get it? Different bikes serve different purposes and one race isnt the answer to everything its just data to consider.

In two minds about this. The Bomber is still an ebike. Sure its the most powerful ebike around but it sure as hell isn't an electric motorcycle. Records don't get set by conservative machinery, they get set by whatever machinery has the best performance that fits into a given set of rules. Now if the rules dont place a power limit on the ebike, then the Bomber has every right to go out and smash the ebike record with full bragging rights. If the rules say Legal max watts only, so be it. I recon there is good chance, the Bomber would still give the record fair nudge.

 

[Green Machine]

In the pikes peak challenge there is no limit on watts...its just an ebike survival race.

So you could show up with your stealth bomber and as long as you dont have mechanical failure and you feel you have enough battery to do it, you should win the race no sweat which would be a great advertising bullet for stealth. I heard a stealth is showing up this year.

I was saying that a stealth bomber guy on the opti groups who owns both was saying that it wouldnt even be an interesting race....like i said like showing up with a gun to a knife fight. If you limited to 850 it would be interesting to see how it compares to opibike.

That to me would be very interesting as well...and if anyone lives in the bay area and has a stealth bomber i would love to do an impromptu race/comparison if the stealth is limited to 850. Without limiting there is just nothing to compare...the stealth would just blow the opti away, but the opti is ligher and perhaps more efficient. The only interesting performance equation when comparing "different class" bikes like this is the efficiency thing to me.

I cant imagine a hub motor being as efficient in a climb as a mid motor, especially as one as well designed as on the opti with the rohloff, but i have been wrong before and dont mind taking a chance to be wrong again. In fact once i have this DD finish that is one of the tests i want to run...

I want to install a cycle analyst on the opti for efficiency testing...i wonder if anyone has ever done this... this is another disadvantage to the everything in the frame design...its hard to make simple modifications.

Regarding ebike racing the peaks challenge is mostly just a cyclist race with ebikes an added category as an afterthought. My point is for an ebike race to be truly interesting it should be divided into classes of either weight or wattage. Weight is more interesting to me if your trying to just judge how well a bike is engineered and designed.

For example...take a minute to look at the german engineered Blacktrail Bt-01. The thing does 60mph and has a 100 mile range. It does all this and still looks good and weighs only 40lbs...20 of those pounds are lifepo4 battery (!!!!). It also costs 80 thousand dollars. But to me that is the zenith of well designed electric bicycles...and i have said before i would be licking my chops if someone showed up on the groups dissecting a bike like that....By the way it is a mid drive motorized bottom bracket very similiar to the opti. Again it only weighs 40lbs so it is more of a bike than a motorcycle....and weight is the most important thing to me when making that "ebike or electric motorcycle" classification...not whether or not it has pedals. In my book the cut off to an ebike would be less than 100lbs..but that is just my book. The blacktrail was made with formula 1 grade carbon fiber and obviously no expense was spared...but it shows what is possible if a manufacturer is completely hell bent on keeping weight low and making the bike feel and ride like a bike....and still have motorcycle like performance numbers. They sold 44 of these bikes before its first month of production so there is a market for this kind of quality....and notice...80k and no suspension. Its obvious weight was the first thing on these german engineers mind when designing this bike.

By the way, the stealth bomber and maybe even the opti would probably beat the blacktrail on the slackers ridge climb just because it doesnt look its designed for very rugged steep hill climbing. But dont judge a bike based on one race. or judge any bike just because of race results...its just more data to consider.

 

[Whiplash]

ONLY 40 lbs? My bike weighs in at 50 and I started with a heavy 38LB bike! I have a range of nearly 40 miles based on my test this afternoon using only 8AH to travel nearly 25 miles without a SINGLE pedal stroke! I also did that at about 30MPH with frequent stops and starts. I like the look of that bike, but come on, 80K?? LOL!

I see your point though!

 

[Hillhater]

..Blacktrail Bt-01. The thing does 60mph and has a 100 mile range.

no matter how much it costs, or what its made of, there is not enough space in the battery box to power that for 100 miles ..........without a LOT of peddling !

 

[Kepler]

800w/hrs in the pack. Motor is just an RC motor (Plattenberg Predator). You wouldn't be happy spending $80K and finding it only goes for 30kms at a decent speed. My favourite statement is the use of super conductors and liquid nitrogen cooling. Apparently it has a built in Cryo plant to re liquify the nitrogen as you ride.

 

[Whiplash]

Lol!

 

[Green Machine]

If anyone has or is thinking about buying a blacktrail bike, please dont be shy about sharing your riding reports here.